It could have been us

AdamOnFirst

Senior
Nov 29, 2021
9,265
973
113
The “cutoff” that NU’s admissions office uses is being in the top half of a graduating class, which is incredibly dumb because (I) many high schools don’t even report that information and (II) there are a litany of factors that go into class rank that have exactly no bearing on a player’s ability to graduate from NU.

Because you danced around it so often, here’s the “baseline” criteria that NU’s admission office looked for back in the day:
  • >3.0 core unweighted GPA
  • >1000 SAT or >20 ACT
  • Top half of HS class, if reported
Like I said before, not exactly “difficult” criteria but a whole heck of a lot higher than the NCAA minimums; there used to be a sliding scale of eligibility based on GPA and test score for NCAA eligibility that was laughably low, which has been scrapped in favor of >16 core courses with a >2.3 GPA with no standardized test requirement (which is also pretty laughably low, especially considering special treatment that prospective D1 athletes typically receive in high school).

Winning on the field while achieving academically and graduating our players is the goal, not some kind of lofty admission requirement that nobody outside of a small portion of the NU fan base even knows about.

Frankly, I could give two ***** how a kid performed academically in high school so long as he graduates from NU. And, even more frankly, it’s a whole helluva lot more difficult to get into NU than it is to graduate (especially with the special treatment and resources available to athletes).

To that end, the whole debate is this: NU has achieved extremely good academic success on the team with admission requirements well below that of the general population, so how much lower could those go assuming academic performance remains adequate and how much can/could that help us be more competitive on the field?

In my opinion I think NU’s coaches should have the latitude to operate within the NCAA framework so long as team academic performance remains amongst the best in the country.
I love how a guy who doesn’t even have the faintest clue how the admissions requirements even work or what they are is SO COMMITTED to them remaining at their exact current level, despite being ignorant of that level, regardless of players at different levels potentially being able to achieve excellent bottom line results in graduating with an NU degree.

Very obviously we could pass more football applicants through our admissions office while still maintaining character and scholarly standards that indicate a player is ready to handle a college course load and still have sky high academic achievement and a program filled with impressing young men
 
  • Like
Reactions: Purple Pile Driver

Purple Pile Driver

All-Conference
May 14, 2014
26,566
2,034
113
I love how a guy who doesn’t even have the faintest clue how the admissions requirements even work or what they are is SO COMMITTED to them remaining at their exact current level, despite being ignorant of that level, regardless of players at different levels potentially being able to achieve excellent bottom line results in graduating with an NU degree.

Very obviously we could pass more football applicants through our admissions office while still maintaining character and scholarly standards that indicate a player is ready to handle a college course load and still have sky high academic achievement and a program filled with impressing young men
We’ve been playing ring around the Rosey for a few days now and I don’t even understand what his point is anymore. He has a poster that has worked in the AD who did this exact job and he won’t even concede that his test score numbers may be more informed than his “piecing it together”. I guess his argument is to keep the standards how they are because it makes NU different. Even if a relaxed standard made zero difference in academic performance once they enrolled at NU. To me, that makes no sense.
 

hdhntr1

Senior
Sep 5, 2006
36,879
965
113
Must be that 26 quoted above was not so good of a source afterall,
Or maybe the standards have changed somewhat since he was in that role. He has not been in it the entire time I have been on this board and that is a while. And supposedly NU as an institution has gotten much more selective over the years, Would that bleed into athletics as well?

Originally NU used the SAT for admissions and I know that they have modified it over time and I have to imagine the same is true of the ACT. We know that there has been grad inflation so has there been test score inflation as well? I know that a number of years ago the average SAT score of the team was about 1100 and for comparison MSU was under 800.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baz = Heisman

Purple Pile Driver

All-Conference
May 14, 2014
26,566
2,034
113
Or maybe the standards have changed somewhat since he was in that role. He has not been in it the entire time I have been on this board and that is a while. And supposedly NU as an institution has gotten much more selective over the years, Would that bleed into athletics as well?

Originally NU used the SAT for admissions and I know that they have modified it over time and I have to imagine the same is true of the ACT. We know that there has been grad inflation so has there been test score inflation as well? I know that a number of years ago the average SAT score of the team was about 1100 and for comparison MSU was under 800.
I have zero inside knowledge, but I would be very surprised if in this day and age of big time revenue being produced by the football team that our academic standards have got tougher than they were in 2011.
 

Baz = Heisman

Sophomore
Aug 15, 2025
230
199
43
1) No need to snipe at me. We’re all an NU family here. I do have an idea how this works.
  • My buddy who worked in the athletic department when the Pardon thing came through got those figures directly from the athletic department so they were not misreported by the player in question. Although I can see why we would always want to verify those, of course.
  • The Brzoja 4.0 GPA thing was reported by Inside NU (who does consistently have good sources given it is run by active students) and widely cited by other NU media members so I don’t think that was misreported either tbf.
2) If you pitched admissions and the athletic department on lowering admission standards for athletes to NCAA minimums (2.3 GPA and no ACT/SAT needed) you would get laughed out the door. Notre Dame started doing that in the Holtz days and they lost the plot as a result. The Paul Horning comments (Google them) said it all.

3) The “we need to lower our high standards” crowd is always lurking around yet gets ignored because we’ve shown we don’t need to do that. Would we win more consistently if we did? Maybe. Would those wins mean as much? Probably not, if you’re being honest with yourself.

From 2000, for example (and there are a few others an easy Google search away):

And we’ve done pretty well all things considered since then, haven’t we? :)
 

Gocatsgo2003

All-Conference
Mar 30, 2006
46,051
2,152
78
Or maybe the standards have changed somewhat since he was in that role. He has not been in it the entire time I have been on this board and that is a while. And supposedly NU as an institution has gotten much more selective over the years, Would that bleed into athletics as well?

Originally NU used the SAT for admissions and I know that they have modified it over time and I have to imagine the same is true of the ACT. We know that there has been grad inflation so has there been test score inflation as well? I know that a number of years ago the average SAT score of the team was about 1100 and for comparison MSU was under 800.

No.
 

Gocatsgo2003

All-Conference
Mar 30, 2006
46,051
2,152
78
1) No need to snipe at me. We’re all an NU family here. I do have an idea how this works.
  • My buddy who worked in the athletic department when the Pardon thing came through got those figures directly from the athletic department so they were not misreported by the player in question. Although I can see why we would always want to verify those, of course.
  • The Brzoja 4.0 GPA thing was reported by Inside NU (who does consistently have good sources given it is run by active students) and widely cited by other NU media members so I don’t think that was misreported either tbf.
2) If you pitched admissions and the athletic department on lowering admission standards for athletes to NCAA minimums (2.3 GPA and no ACT/SAT needed) you would get laughed out the door. Notre Dame started doing that in the Holtz days and they lost the plot as a result. The Paul Horning comments (Google them) said it all.

3) The “we need to lower our high standards” crowd is always lurking around yet gets ignored because we’ve shown we don’t need to do that. Would we win more consistently if we did? Maybe. Would those wins mean as much? Probably not, if you’re being honest with yourself.

From 2000, for example (and there are a few others an easy Google search away):

And we’ve done pretty well all things considered since then, haven’t we? :)

1) Again, top-line numbers seldom tell the whole story. Especially when you don’t have the full picture. Maybe Pardon had a 3.2 core GPA. Maybe Brzoja‘s high school had issues categorizing core vs. non-core (you’d be surprised how often that happens). Maybe his 4.0 was weighted/overall and his unweighted/core was 3.2. Maybe they didn’t take enough core classes (NU requires more than the NCAA minimum as well). Maybe the sub-scores gave reason for pause, especially if the English score was low. You and I don’t know, but you’ve built most of your argument on two anecdotes.

2) I’m well aware that we would get laughed out of the room by the Provost if we pitched lowering requirements to the NCAA minimums. However, I view that as a symptom of NU’s longstanding arrogance instead of a reasoned stance.

2a) How exactly did Notre Dame “los[e] the plot?” They’re consistently amongst the top teams in the country and recruit with the best of the Blue Bloods while maintaining consistently strong academic performance: https://fightingirish.com/notre-dame-leads-all-fbs-institutions-with-17-perfect-ncaa-apr-scores/

3) Why do we have to have “things considered?” To arrogantly make ourselves feel better and different?

My personal theory is that the NU Provost has consistently hyper-focused on data that gets reported in the federal Common Data Set (breakdowns start on page 18): https://www.enrollment.northwestern.edu/data/2024-2025.pdf

Those percentages are rounded based on whole percentage points, so (i) we can take +/- 45 kids annually while still reporting a “0%“ and (ii) I don’t think it’s ironic that the “cutoffs” map pretty nicely to the ranges that have to be reported there. And I guarantee you that the VAST majority of kids in the “0%” and “1%” buckets are scholarship football and basketball players.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AdamOnFirst

AdamOnFirst

Senior
Nov 29, 2021
9,265
973
113
1) Again, top-line numbers seldom tell the whole story. Especially when you don’t have the full picture. Maybe Pardon had a 3.2 core GPA. Maybe Brzoja‘s high school had issues categorizing core vs. non-core (you’d be surprised how often that happens). Maybe his 4.0 was weighted/overall and his unweighted/core was 3.2. Maybe they didn’t take enough core classes (NU requires more than the NCAA minimum as well). Maybe the sub-scores gave reason for pause, especially if the English score was low. You and I don’t know, but you’ve built most of your argument on two anecdotes.

2) I’m well aware that we would get laughed out of the room by the Provost if we pitched lowering requirements to the NCAA minimums. However, I view that as a symptom of NU’s longstanding arrogance instead of a reasoned stance.

2a) How exactly did Notre Dame “los[e] the plot?” They’re consistently amongst the top teams in the country and recruit with the best of the Blue Bloods while maintaining consistently strong academic performance: https://fightingirish.com/notre-dame-leads-all-fbs-institutions-with-17-perfect-ncaa-apr-scores/

3) Why do we have to have “things considered?” To arrogantly make ourselves feel better and different?

My personal theory is that the NU Provost has consistently hyper-focused on data that gets reported in the federal Common Data Set (breakdowns start on page 18): https://www.enrollment.northwestern.edu/data/2024-2025.pdf

Those percentages are rounded based on whole percentage points, so (i) we can take +/- 45 kids annually while still reporting a “0%“ and (ii) I don’t think it’s ironic that the “cutoffs” map pretty nicely to the ranges that have to be reported there. And I guarantee you that the VAST majority of kids in the “0%” and “1%” buckets are scholarship football and basketball players.
One of the great thigns about being on this Board, and that I do miss about the Rock, is that there are some actual insiders and topic experts one can learn from. I would recommend Baz take this conversation as an opportunity to learn instead of BS'ing, because the people you're talking to know a lot more than you and you'll be smarter if you just listen.
 

Baz = Heisman

Sophomore
Aug 15, 2025
230
199
43
One of the great thigns about being on this Board, and that I do miss about the Rock, is that there are some actual insiders and topic experts one can learn from. I would recommend Baz take this conversation as an opportunity to learn instead of BS'ing, because the people you're talking to know a lot more than you and you'll be smarter if you just listen.
Thanks, Dad. You’re a genius. My bad.

I’m not the one who wants to fundamentally change something that has served us well - oh, I don’t know, forever - and which has also become a core principle of the program and brought in new fans and overall respect for us.

Given what I just saw about you loving NIL as it currently is… I’m afraid you’re too “woke” to understand that.
 

AdamOnFirst

Senior
Nov 29, 2021
9,265
973
113
Thanks, Dad. You’re a genius. My bad.

I’m not the one who wants to fundamentally change something that has served us well - oh, I don’t know, forever - and which has also become a core principle of the program and brought in new fans and overall respect for us.

Given what I just saw about you loving NIL as it currently is… I’m afraid you’re too “woke” to understand that.
You are so hilarious confidently wrong, right down to calling me "woke." My friends would get a big big laugh out of that for more reasons than you know.
 

Baz = Heisman

Sophomore
Aug 15, 2025
230
199
43
1) Again, top-line numbers seldom tell the whole story. Especially when you don’t have the full picture. Maybe Pardon had a 3.2 core GPA. Maybe Brzoja‘s high school had issues categorizing core vs. non-core (you’d be surprised how often that happens). Maybe his 4.0 was weighted/overall and his unweighted/core was 3.2. Maybe they didn’t take enough core classes (NU requires more than the NCAA minimum as well). Maybe the sub-scores gave reason for pause, especially if the English score was low. You and I don’t know, but you’ve built most of your argument on two anecdotes.

2) I’m well aware that we would get laughed out of the room by the Provost if we pitched lowering requirements to the NCAA minimums. However, I view that as a symptom of NU’s longstanding arrogance instead of a reasoned stance.

2a) How exactly did Notre Dame “los[e] the plot?” They’re consistently amongst the top teams in the country and recruit with the best of the Blue Bloods while maintaining consistently strong academic performance: https://fightingirish.com/notre-dame-leads-all-fbs-institutions-with-17-perfect-ncaa-apr-scores/

3) Why do we have to have “things considered?” To arrogantly make ourselves feel better and different?

My personal theory is that the NU Provost has consistently hyper-focused on data that gets reported in the federal Common Data Set (breakdowns start on page 18): https://www.enrollment.northwestern.edu/data/2024-2025.pdf

Those percentages are rounded based on whole percentage points, so (i) we can take +/- 45 kids annually while still reporting a “0%“ and (ii) I don’t think it’s ironic that the “cutoffs” map pretty nicely to the ranges that have to be reported there. And I guarantee you that the VAST majority of kids in the “0%” and “1%” buckets are scholarship football and basketball players.