Or Daryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, you are right, you could have cashed a hell of a parlay on that group.
Ken Griffey Jr. - HOF Vote
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Or Daryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, you are right, you could have cashed a hell of a parlay on that group.
To say Piazza isn't a HOF, is just crazy. He is without a doubt the best hitting catcher in the history of the game. Was he a great defensive catcher? No. But those in the know say he was average (or slightly above) defensively, other than he had no arm to throw out runners. And it's not just HRs. He also hit .308 for his career. You can count on one hand how many HOF catchers have a career .300+ average, and only 1 has played since WWII (Piazza).
Among HOF catchers, Piazza is 1st in HRs, 3rd in batting average, 3rd in RBI, 3rd in Hits, 1st in SlgPct, and 1st in OPS.
Among HOF catchers, Piazza is 1st in HRs, 3rd in batting average, 3rd in RBI, 3rd in Hits, 1st in SlgPct, and 1st in OPS.
I am not a Bonds fan. But him not getting in is just the writers punishing him for the juicing. Well that and he wasn't very nice to the baseball writers while he played.
Just look at the numbers, it's clear when he started juicing. Pictures of when he started getting bigger tell the same story. It was around 1999, right after McGwire & Sosa made their HR rampage. But had he retired after the 98 season, he was a HOF then! At that point he already had 3 MVPs and a runner up. Over 400 SB and over 400 HR, and 8 gold gloves.
So you can't say he isn't in the HOF because you think he juiced (we know he did), because he was a HOF even before he started juicing.
So a career .308/427/1335 isn't HOF worthy? .300 or better 9 straight seasons? Would have had 2 MVP's were it not for Caminiti's roid numbers and Larry Walker going off at Coors.
Regardless of position, those career numbers are HOF easy. Does Bench get in with his numbers if he played 3B? Does Ozzie if he played CF? There is a reason players are called "the greatest catcher ever"..."the greatest SS ever"....etc.
You better stick to the latest gopher hair shaving brushes from wherever.
The era that he played in had alot to do with hits, homeruns etc.
Baseballs were juiced. Alot of players put up numbers higher than normal.
You cant be one dimensional and be a hall of famer.
I am biased because Johnny Bench is my favorite player of all time.
It probably is upsetting to you that MP was a better hitting catcher...but rest easy, Bench will still be in the hall
Piazza got in. Good for him. Have better players been kept out? Maybe, maybe not.
To me a very interesting player that will be on the ballot in 2 or 3 more seasons that may very likely get passed by for hall of fame entry is Todd Helton. Personally, I think it will be a shame if Helton doesn't make it in but he may not. .316 batting average (better than Piazza), 3 gold gloves (Piazza none), more than 2500 hits (almost 400 more than Piazza), 369 home runs (58 fewer than Piazza), 1406 RBIs (71 more than Piazza). Helton was also the major league batting and RBI champion in 2000 while Piazza was never a statistical leader in any category. Both Piazza and Helton played 16 seasons.
Piazza was a much more popular player. A 12 time All Star. Dodgers. Mets. Helton was only a Rocky. THE Rocky. A 5 time all-star from 2000-2004.
To me a very interesting player that will be on the ballot in 2 or 3 more seasons that may very likely get passed by for hall of fame entry is Todd Helton. Personally, I think it will be a shame if Helton doesn't make it in but he may not. .316 batting average (better than Piazza), 3 gold gloves (Piazza none), more than 2500 hits (almost 400 more than Piazza), 369 home runs (58 fewer than Piazza), 1406 RBIs (71 more than Piazza). Helton was also the major league batting and RBI champion in 2000 while Piazza was never a statistical leader in any category. Both Piazza and Helton played 16 seasons.
Piazza was a much more popular player. A 12 time All Star. Dodgers. Mets. Helton was only a Rocky. THE Rocky. A 5 time all-star from 2000-2004.
This will be what hurts Helton:
He's hit .345/.442/.607 at home (225 home runs) versus .287/.386/.470 on the road (142 home runs).
That and he played 1B, which has had some excellent offensive players at the position.
He's hit .345/.442/.607 at home (225 home runs) versus .287/.386/.470 on the road (142 home runs).
That and he played 1B, which has had some excellent offensive players at the position.
this is true, but to continue the comparison to Piazza, he was a NOT great catcher. I don't like the notion that catchers can make it into the hall with lesser offensive stats unless they've got the defensive prowess to back it up. Piazza certainly does not. (it doesn't work that way for sub offensive short stops). Piazza is 8th all-time for most stolen bases allowed. Plenty of catchers below him on that list with more years behind the plate.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SB_c_career.shtml
Piazza called a great game and had a nice fielding %...just couldn't gun anyone. He also played with some pitchers who made it worse...but its IMO that if you are the greatest at your position at a major aspect of the game, you should be in the Hall.
I've never understood the bias against Bonds and Clemens. As several have already said, both of those guys were first ballot HOFers before they ever did PEDs. And, just to be Devil's Advocate, PEDs were NOT illegal in baseball (although illegal everywhere else) when they were doing them. I agree - they never should've done them. But, let's make an analogy: a guy at work who you've been promoted faster than and is seen as being an inferior employee to you all of a sudden becomes 'the whiz kid'. And, about half of your coworkers also have huge gains in productivity. So much so that you feel you're being left behind. Turns out all your coworkers are taking a combination of speed and some wonder drug that just makes them think better. You don't think you'd get some of that and try it, too? Just to keep up?
Seems to me that just as many pitchers have been busted for PEDs as hitters. If I'm Barry Bonds or Rafael Palmeiro or whoever and a guy who couldn't get me out is suddenly blowing the ball past me and I find out it's due to something he's taking that ISN'T illegal, you can bet your a$$ I'm taking it, too. Doesn't make it right, technically, and may not be 'in the best interests of baseball' but I'm not gonna just resign myself to the fact that some schlep is chemically improving himself (legally, according to baseball at the time) and do nothing about it. I doubt many of us would, either. Again, just being a Devil's Advocate.
Oh, yeah. Pete Rose should already be in the Hall, too. Regardless of what he did off the field, he's the all-time MLB hits leader, etc. Off the field shenanigans should have no bearing on HOF credentials. Okay, he bet on baseball. Never against his own team so no hint of throwing games. It's not right and he should be banned from being in MLB. But that doesn't erase what he did on the field, which is obviously HOF-worthy.
Seems to me that just as many pitchers have been busted for PEDs as hitters. If I'm Barry Bonds or Rafael Palmeiro or whoever and a guy who couldn't get me out is suddenly blowing the ball past me and I find out it's due to something he's taking that ISN'T illegal, you can bet your a$$ I'm taking it, too. Doesn't make it right, technically, and may not be 'in the best interests of baseball' but I'm not gonna just resign myself to the fact that some schlep is chemically improving himself (legally, according to baseball at the time) and do nothing about it. I doubt many of us would, either. Again, just being a Devil's Advocate.
Oh, yeah. Pete Rose should already be in the Hall, too. Regardless of what he did off the field, he's the all-time MLB hits leader, etc. Off the field shenanigans should have no bearing on HOF credentials. Okay, he bet on baseball. Never against his own team so no hint of throwing games. It's not right and he should be banned from being in MLB. But that doesn't erase what he did on the field, which is obviously HOF-worthy.
Sorry Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, George Foxx, Wade Boggs, Ernie Banks, and many others, cantstandthecards says you can't be one dimensional and be a hall of famer.
For one, SB allowed would be directly tied to games caught. Also a factor would be how common was base-stealing during that era. And how good/bad your pitchers are at keeping runners close, and how long it takes them to get the ball to the plate. BUT that (throwing out runners) is just one part of being a good catcher. It is the easiest to measure, but probably not nearly as important as calling a good game, and being a good receiver, both of which Piazza was reportedly pretty good at.
Helton will be a very interesting one! Undoubtedly there is a Coors effect (1/2 of his career games played in Denver). Some voters will (unfairly) rule him out completely because of it, others will discount his numbers because of it (this is where I would fall), and some will ignore the Coors effect altogether. I think he hovers in the 50-60% vote range, at some point maybe approaches 70%. But do/did voters ever consider (adjust/inflate) pitchers numbers who pitched in very pitcher friendly ball parks?
Babe Ruth also pitched, Boggs could field decent, Banks was a good fielder, Ted Williams played right field.
They were not one dimensional.
It bothers me that guys like Craig Biggio is in the HOF but Bonds and Clemens are not.
These are all very good points. Did you look at the list I provided?
All time steals allowed:
#8 Mike Piazza, 1400 stolen bases allowed over 1630 games caught (16 seasons)
#9 Carlton Fisk, 1302 stolen bases allowed over 2226 games caught (24 seasons)
#30 AJ Pierzynski, 1038 stolen bases over 1872 games caught, (18 seasons, active player)
#111 Bench, 610 stolen bases over 1742 games caught, (17 seasons)
Even in his 22nd season Fisk caught more than 100 games. No, not using Johnny as a benchmark (pun intended). Just put him in there because we all love him.
You make an perfectly valid point about Coors, one that will certainly come to focus when Helton is on the block the 3rd or 4th time he is on the ballot, and then the 5th, when the Hall becomes challenged for whether they will establish a bias against the perceived thin air (Hall vs. Helton). And maybe that's valid. Still, I followed Todd's career closely, and still find it tragic his lower back problems couldn't allow him another two seasons to get his home run numbers above 400, and his career RBIs above 1500. At worst, his career avg. would have dropped to the neighborhood of .305 if he struck out a lot. He is the all time face that franchise and, on a small, unrelated side note, probably the person most responsible for the early rise of Peyton Manning's brilliant career at UT. When he hit, he hit clutch. The answer to your last question, a damn good one, is probably an unfortunate no.
Biggio was #20 all-time in hits when he was voted in. Since surpassed by juicer Alex Rodriguez. Biggio is 5th all-time in doubles. 1st all time hit by pitch. 16th all time in games played. Craig set the bar remarkably high as a professional player. He is any general manager's dream come true. Moved from catcher to 2nd base, and impossible challenge, and won two gold gloves.
I think people get too obsessed with numbers especially when these guys play so many games and stay in the big leagues for 20 years. You're definitely going to put up some numbers when you stay that long.
I just think you have to use the eye test and be more selective about who gets in...I think it should truly be the best of the best; not guys who were never even a top 5 player when they were playing the game.
Chipper was also a #1 overall guy. He'll be the 2nd ever in the HoF I guess.
I can't disagree with you. The issue with Bonds and Clemons not being in the Hall bothers me because illustrations from those guys and players like them will always be used to dilute the qualities of players that do get in. Example, Biggio. And I'm not judging you for doing that. He's right there on the tee to be hit. Comparatively, Piazza is too for that matter. Why him and why not Bonds? And then there's Raphael Palmeiro's 569 home run, 1835 RBI, 3020 hit, 3 time gold glove career worth mentioning. Palmeiro passed a polygraph in which he stated that he unknowingly ingested via B12 injected. Emphasis, unknowingly. Yet, Palmeiro, in spite of being lock for the Hall, couldn't maintain enough support to stay on the ballot.
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I think Bonds, Clemons, etc should be in.
The "powers to be" turned a blind eye to the steroids issue
Because of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
IMHO
The "powers to be" turned a blind eye to the steroids issue
Because of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
IMHO
I'm a huge collector of Griffey and he's my favorite player of all time. As a cardinal fan, I still love the 90's watching him play. Until the injury he had the purest swing in the games history and was a lock down center fielder. Anyone stating otherwise is way out of bounds.
It just depends. I am a huge baseball collector of cards and memorabilia.
His legendary 89 upper deck grade 10 is worth all of 280.00.
The great thing about Griffey is he transcended the hobby of refractors and stylish cards; he also has such a huge number of cars collecting him takes a lifetime and is lots of fun.
I was s big Boggs (in Boston) fan and yes he eventually became a decent fielder, as was Piazza a decent catcher. Ruth only pitched 3-4 years, and was not a great OF. Banks played half his career at 1B, so I'm not sure how good of a fielder he could have been. RF are not necessarily good fielders, oh and Williams was not a RF he was a LF and not a good one.
I see a difference between Bonds and Clemons - maybe just slight. As good as Bonds was pre '98, he moved into another stratosphere after the PEDs started. IIRC, when the team of the century was put together in '99, Bonds was something like the 19th outfielder on the list - and I don't recall any outrage about that. OF is star studded, as great as Bonds was, that sounded about right. PEDs made him something he wasn't before. I don't think Clemens was a better pitcher after he started juicing. It just enabled him to stay at that level far longer than he likely would have.
In the end, cheating is cheating, they'll be considered as a pair.....
Junior Griffey is still the most naturally gifted (and exciting) player I've seen. Although Trout is kind of promising...
In the end, cheating is cheating, they'll be considered as a pair.....
Junior Griffey is still the most naturally gifted (and exciting) player I've seen. Although Trout is kind of promising...
Trout is promising, yes. But you know too well he will never have that rare dynamic that a player like Junior has. I could be wrong. Too many of Junior's homer's were jaw-dropping gorgeous. If MLB could create a category for that, he would be the leader and 2nd place would be a long way back.
Question I have about Trout is whether he'll show fans more of the base speed like he did in 2012 and 2013. Big drop in stolen bases past 2 seasons.
You're trolling us, right? You should be slapped for putting Dave Kingman in the same post as Chipper Jones.
Jones hit .364 and won the batting title at age 36. Kingman hit .238 when he was that old. Chipper is a freaking all-timer, and I'd argue he is slightly undervalued because he was a non-roid guy playing in the steroid era.
Johnny Bench is one of the greatest catchers ever, might not be the best hitting catcher, but overall he is the best.
He was throwing out ,"base stealers" not guys who steal a few bases. Base stealers stole bases when everyone watching knew they were going to go for it.
No players out there today can match Henderson, Morgan or Brock when it comes to stealing bases. It's a lost art.
In his early years Bench threw them out from his knees.
He was throwing out ,"base stealers" not guys who steal a few bases. Base stealers stole bases when everyone watching knew they were going to go for it.
No players out there today can match Henderson, Morgan or Brock when it comes to stealing bases. It's a lost art.
In his early years Bench threw them out from his knees.
I don't think you can say there aren't players in the league with the ability to steal bases like Henderson. What you can say is that the game no longer has 9 inning lead-off hitters with base stealing ability. MLB base stealers come of the bench. The game is much different - your observation in that regard is valid.
Another thing that is different, from my personal perspective, is some of the ridiculous moves that umpires allow pitchers to get away with to 2nd base that, 20 years ago, would most definitely have been balks. It's as if umpires do not want to be tasked with the business of making a call at third. This, by no means, is enough to contribute to the marginal difference you've noted. Among active players, Ichiro Suzuki is the MLB base stealing leader at 498 and he's been in the league since '01. Probably a similar or just a slightly better pace than Brett Butler, who stole 558 bases from '81 to '97, and is 25th on the all-time steals list.