Kyle Wiltjer and "what ifs"

[TTOWN CATS]

Wow! 8th best player in the country, He could really help here. I wonder why Cal didn't recruit this guy. I also wonder if the NBA Draft Boards are as enamored with him as is Parrish.

 

[Poetax]

Originally posted by Atlanta Blue:
Not really trying to argue that it wasn't a good decision for Kyle to transfer. He's doing well and UK is obviously just fine without him. Just having some fun with what might have happened had he redshirted a year but stayed at UK.

I actually don't think Kyle's defense would have hurt us as much as everyone is saying. I think staying at UK would have forced Kyle to continue to work on his one-on-one defending and he would have improved enough to mitigate that a bit. It's probably not helping his NBA dreams to hide in a zone and not learn how to defend one-on-one.

He's a really good offensive player and a great shooter. He'll have a pro career somewhere, although maybe overseas.

Kyle left for the reason of playing time, until he deserved to be on the floor for both offensive and defensive reasons, it wasn't happening especially this year. Last year, he might have been a help but the floorplan of this team starts with defense. I wish Kyle the best.

 

[KopiKat]

Originally posted by WayneDougan:
Pitino would be a better coach for Kyle than Cal. Pitino, in my opinion, is better at taking any group of players and getting the most out of them.

Cal needs the right players to be successful. He's not going to win without top of the line talent. But since he is absolutely the best guy since John Wooden at getting the best players, it works. I'll also say that Cal is the an excellent coach when he's got the right guys.

So my point is, Wiltjer couldn't play D in Cal's system. Booker's better anyway. And I'd rather have Cal than Pitino.

Every time I hear somebody try to dilute Cal's coaching ability by blaming his talent I think of Dean Smith's first national title and the names Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins and then I just laugh my @ss off. Or I can think of John Wooden and arguably the two greatest college basketball players of all time, Bill Walton and Lew Alcindor.

Getting back to Kyle . . . he was never going to be man enough to be 4th or 5th best player on a GREAT team.

Pitino sure was a better coach for Rod Rhodes . . . NOT. A good argument can be made that Rhodes was possibly the best recruit Pitino ever got while at UK on the basis of Rhode's ranking throughout high school, but we all know that story. Pitino was never going to make himself less important for Rod Rhodes' benefit. Everything was always Rhodes' fault and a lot of it was. But Rick failed to coach Rod Rhodes to even 1/2 of his potential at UK. A horrible fit between coach and player. Most of that was Rick's fault. I often think of Andre Riddick. One of the most intimidating shot blockers I've ever seen in a UK uniform, known while at UK to regularly state that he didn't like the game of basketball. Somehow that never had anything to do with Rick or Rick's leadership. Just imagine one of Cal's best players saying that.. Even once.

 

[mjj_2K]

Originally posted by W2R:

Originally posted by WayneDougan:
Pitino would be a better coach for Kyle than Cal. Pitino, in my opinion, is better at taking any group of players and getting the most out of them.

Cal needs the right players to be successful. He's not going to win without top of the line talent. But since he is absolutely the best guy since John Wooden at getting the best players, it works. I'll also say that Cal is the an excellent coach when he's got the right guys.

So my point is, Wiltjer couldn't play D in Cal's system. Booker's better anyway. And I'd rather have Cal than Pitino.

Really. How much talent did Cal have at umass or memphis. Two great players in Camby and rose. TWO. ....

Wait- you mean Chris Douglass-Roberts, Antonio Anderson, Robert Dozier, and Joey Dorsey weren't top 10, 5 star recruits, who have gone on to tear up the NBA? And Edgar Padilla and Carmelo Travieso weren't a backcourt nearly equal in talent to Wall and Bledsoe?

The world is too complicated. I refuse to accept that simplistic memes like "Cal can only win with great talent" aren't 100% true.

 

[musrat59]

I am happy for Kyle and the success he is having at Gonzaga but like a lot of the posters said, he just couldn't guard anyone in the man defense. They can kind of hide him in zone defense.

 

[Poetax]

Originally posted by WayneDougan:
Pitino would be a better coach for Kyle than Cal. Pitino, in my opinion, is better at taking any group of players and getting the most out of them.

Cal needs the right players to be successful. He's not going to win without top of the line talent. But since he is absolutely the best guy since John Wooden at getting the best players, it works. I'll also say that Cal is the an excellent coach when he's got the right guys.

So my point is, Wiltjer couldn't play D in Cal's system. Booker's better anyway. And I'd rather have Cal than Pitino.

This is laughable even for a ul fan. lol

 

[K-Town Kat]

I've watched Kyle twice this year. His body looks the same. He's added zero muscle to his frame and is every bit as slow and flat-footed as he ever was.

The OP alluded to Kyle playing the 3 with the blue platoon and I nearly spit out my cereal. That would require Kyle to guard the 3 man on the perimeter in a switching man to man defense. I mean, seriously? Lol.

What makes our defense historically great is the fact that our bigs can readily switch out and hold their own. Lyles at 6'10" has great footwork and is capable of guarding on the perimeter. Same with Lee, WCS, and Towns. Even Dakari can move his feet better on D than Kyle.

Offense was never the issue or debate with Kyle. What rendered him average at UK was the fact his man would score as much or more than him. That would not change now. At Gonzaga, he plays weaker competition and gets to hide by playing zone. If we were to play them, he would struggle mightily with our athletic bigs and we would win by 12-15, at least.

This post was edited on 1/25 7:51 AM by K-Town Kat

 

[kyjeff1]

This team is based first and foremost on defense, Kyle would get zero playing time here this year or last year. Anyone who thinks he would be okay and get 10 minutes per game is really not paying attention. Kyle was the worst defensive player I've ever seen, avoided contact at all times and lost his shooting touch midway through the 2013 season.
Who has Gonzaga played this year? Arizona and they lost that game. Other than that they've played nobody. Squared off against pacifica last night…. yowzaaa. once we got into conference play in 2013 other coaches noticed that Kyle couldn't guard a toddler and continued to ram the ball down his throat and get easy baskets because kw would just move out of their way. It was ugly to watch.
We have 3 outstanding outside shooters on this team but they don't really shoot that often. That is the one thing Kyle can do on a basketball court and honestly we don't need it, he would be looking up at Willis this year.

 

[UK90]

Originally posted by Atlanta Blue:

It's pretty interesting to image Kyle as a member of the Blue Platoon (moving Trey Lyles back to the White Platoon).

See, the problem with this idea is it has Kyle at the three spot, where he can NOT play defensively, especially in Cal's straight man to man based defensive system.

One reason things are working out well now is Gonzaga plays Kyle exclusively at the 4 or 5 spots, but never the 3, and plays a LOT of zone defense. This allows them to hide Kyle's defensive limitations (especially against that weak mid major competition) in a way that could not be hidden in Cal's system. If Kyle was still here, and playing the three spot in a platoon like you suggested, he'd look different and worse than he does now, and would be getting exposed and embarrassed defensively far more often.

I'll give Kyle credit for making a wise transfer decision. Gonzaga really was the PERFECT system and place for his game, probably where he should've gone from the beginning. As much as he might've liked here, he was simply not a good fit for Cal's system.

 

[caneintally]

Sorry i am THRILLED THAT SAD SACK ON DEFENSE IS NOT WITH US . Can you freakin imagine how much our D would be worse if he played at all? I have seen him play 5 times this year and his D is still horrible . And also when he was here he didn't shoot all that great when he was the focal point . He shot us out of a few games , just like Goodwin. Sorry we wouldnt be having a historic year with him sadly and he is in the right place where he will win 35 games or so and lose in the 2nd round like the Zags do every year . They played one really top 20 team all year and lost. Also why even discuss something like this when it isnt possible ?

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

Originally posted by KopiKat:

Originally posted by WayneDougan:
Pitino would be a better coach for Kyle than Cal. Pitino, in my opinion, is better at taking any group of players and getting the most out of them.

Cal needs the right players to be successful. He's not going to win without top of the line talent. But since he is absolutely the best guy since John Wooden at getting the best players, it works. I'll also say that Cal is the an excellent coach when he's got the right guys.

So my point is, Wiltjer couldn't play D in Cal's system. Booker's better anyway. And I'd rather have Cal than Pitino.

Every time I hear somebody try to dilute Cal's coaching ability by blaming his talent I think of Dean Smith's first national title and the names Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins and then I just laugh my @ss off. Or I can think of John Wooden and arguably the two greatest college basketball players of all time, Bill Walton and Lew Alcindor.

The problem with a lot of our fans is if you don't believe Cal is the second coming of Jesus Christ in all areas of coaching, you are diluting Cal's coaching ability. Here is what I believe:


To be successful as a coach in college, you need to be good at recruiting, developing talent, and x's and o'sCal is the best recruiter bar none - best in the last 20 years for sureCal is very good at developing talent, probably in the top 20%Cal is a good (see the Final four run last year), but not great (see Mazzulla, Joe - PG-West Virginia) x's and o's guy
Pitino, when he was here, seemed to have a knack for getting the most out of slow, out-of-shape guys (e.g., Richie Farmer, Nazr Mohammed). I think Cal would rather just recruit over them - probably an easier and more successful approach anyway.

One final note, if you want to compare college to the NBA, the role of the college basketball head coach is both GM and coach. The role really is combined. So the role of any college head coach should be judged on the combined work of both of those jobs, measured in wins and titles. So you will never hear me knock Wooden's coaching because "he had the best players". His freaking job was to get the best players and win with them. And that's what Cal does too.

 

[blubo]

it's like cal said a couple of days ago "if you have good players you're going to win a lot of games". coaching only goes so far.

 

[johnnyrockets]

Why can't people just be happy the kid figured it out when he did? Any of you have any regrets about the way your life played out and wish you could go back and change paths at age 20? Or is he just dead to you for having the gall to "throw away" the opportunity to wear a UK uniform? It was never about "working on his body" or getting stronger. It was about getting to a system that would fit his skill set, which he's done.

But hey, 75% of the smartest basketball minds in America post here, so what do the folks from the Wooden Watch know anyway?

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Originally posted by johnnyrockets:
Why can't people just be happy the kid figured it out when he did? Any of you have any regrets about the way your life played out and wish you could go back and change paths at age 20? Or is he just dead to you for having the gall to "throw away" the opportunity to wear a UK uniform? It was never about "working on his body" or getting stronger. It was about getting to a system that would fit his skill set, which he's done.

But hey, 75% of the smartest basketball minds in America post here, so what do the folks from the Wooden Watch know anyway?

What exactly has he figured out? He won't be in the NBA anymore from his time at Gonzaga than he would have been at UK.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Kyle clearly made the right move for Kyle. He'd of course be nice to have, especially last year, but he wouldn't have even have been able to play in a physical game like yesterday. Kid is/was soft as Charmin.

He's in the PERFECT spot at Gonzaga. Playing inferior level of competition night in and night out where defense is not stressed. He should be putting up monster numbers. He's a 3rd year junior, so he's more mature than he was here.

No reason he can't be a Steve Novak type in the NBA either, and he probably wasn't going to get enough run to demonstrate that at UK. Will be interesting to see if he comes back for his 5th year or not.

 

[bcox13]

Originally posted by WayneDougan:

Originally posted by KopiKat:

Every time I hear somebody try to dilute Cal's coaching ability by blaming his talent I think of Dean Smith's first national title and the names Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins and then I just laugh my @ss off. Or I can think of John Wooden and arguably the two greatest college basketball players of all time, Bill Walton and Lew Alcindor.

Pitino, when he was here, seemed to have a knack for getting the most out of slow, out-of-shape guys (e.g., Richie Farmer, Nazr Mohammed). I think Cal would rather just recruit over them - probably an easier and more successful approach anyway.

I know Cal didn't recrut him, but Josh Harrelson is the first person that comes to mind that makes your above post idiotic.

 

[WildMoon]

Originally posted by WayneDougan:

Originally posted by KopiKat:

The problem with a lot of our fans is if you don't believe Cal is the second coming of Jesus Christ in all areas of coaching, you are diluting Cal's coaching ability. Here is what I believe:


To be successful as a coach in college, you need to be good at recruiting, developing talent, and x's and o'sCal is the best recruiter bar none - best in the last 20 years for sureCal is very good at developing talent, probably in the top 20%Cal is a good (see the Final four run last year), but not great (see Mazzulla, Joe - PG-West Virginia) x's and o's guy
Pitino, when he was here, seemed to have a knack for getting the most out of slow, out-of-shape guys (e.g., Richie Farmer, Nazr Mohammed). I think Cal would rather just recruit over them - probably an easier and more successful approach anyway.

One final note, if you want to compare college to the NBA, the role of the college basketball head coach is both GM and coach. The role really is combined. So the role of any college head coach should be judged on the combined work of both of those jobs, measured in wins and titles. So you will never hear me knock Wooden's coaching because "he had the best players". His freaking job was to get the best players and win with them. And that's what Cal does too.

WRONG.

By your definition, Coach Cal should not have the best record in NCAA since coming to UK. top 20% in developing talent, and good at x and o...

LOL, he's top in developing talent, and top 5 in x's and o's.

If he isn't, he wouldn't have the most insane record at UK that he has.

 

[johnnyrockets]

Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:

Originally posted by johnnyrockets:
Why can't people just be happy the kid figured it out when he did? Any of you have any regrets about the way your life played out and wish you could go back and change paths at age 20? Or is he just dead to you for having the gall to "throw away" the opportunity to wear a UK uniform? It was never about "working on his body" or getting stronger. It was about getting to a system that would fit his skill set, which he's done.

But hey, 75% of the smartest basketball minds in America post here, so what do the folks from the Wooden Watch know anyway?

What exactly has he figured out? He won't be in the NBA anymore from his time at Gonzaga than he would have been at UK.

He has figured out that Kentucky wasn't the right place for him to reach **his own** ceiling as a player. It's not blasphemous to say that Cal isn't the best coach for every single kid out there, and I don't understand folks' insistence on assigning their own definition of success to kids they've likely never met before. Even IF your speculation about his NBA prospects were true (big if), don't you think he's probably having more fun playing and scoring 16 ppg and being on AA lists for a top 5 team in the country than he would be getting spot minutes for the #1 team in the country? If the NBA is an impossibility (as you state), why wouldn't he want to maximize his enjoyment in college? Or do you insist that every single player would be better off being at UK for 4 years irrespective of their future?

 

[WildMoon]

Originally posted by johnnyrockets:

Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:

He has figured out that Kentucky wasn't the right place for him to reach **his own** ceiling as a player. It's not blasphemous to say that Cal isn't the best coach for every single kid out there, and I don't understand folks' insistence on assigning their own definition of success to kids they've likely never met before. Even IF your speculation about his NBA prospects were true (big if), don't you think he's probably having more fun playing and scoring 16 ppg and being on AA lists for a top 5 team in the country than he would be getting spot minutes for the #1 team in the country? If the NBA is an impossibility (as you state), why wouldn't he want to maximize his enjoyment in college? Or do you insist that every single player would be better off being at UK for 4 years irrespective of their future?

he averaged 10+ ppg at Kentucky playing 23.8 minutes per game.

He's at 26 mpg now getting 15.8 ppg.

Some act like he is worldly better than he was at UK.. I just don't see it. His rebounding is still ****** at PF. If this is all he has to show for since 2 years ago at UK...that's quite a disappointment.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Originally posted by WildMoon:

Originally posted by johnnyrockets:

Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:

He has figured out that Kentucky wasn't the right place for him to reach **his own** ceiling as a player. It's not blasphemous to say that Cal isn't the best coach for every single kid out there, and I don't understand folks' insistence on assigning their own definition of success to kids they've likely never met before. Even IF your speculation about his NBA prospects were true (big if), don't you think he's probably having more fun playing and scoring 16 ppg and being on AA lists for a top 5 team in the country than he would be getting spot minutes for the #1 team in the country? If the NBA is an impossibility (as you state), why wouldn't he want to maximize his enjoyment in college? Or do you insist that every single player would be better off being at UK for 4 years irrespective of their future?

he averaged 10+ ppg at Kentucky playing 23.8 minutes per game.

He's at 26 mpg now getting 15.8 ppg.

Some act like he is worldly better than he was at UK.. I just don't see it. His rebounding is still ****** at PF. If this is all he has to show for since 2 years ago at UK...that's quite a disappointment.

Yeah, I'm not sure what people are talking about, aside from the fact he jacks up more shots now at Gonzaga than UK.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

Originally posted by WildMoon:

Originally posted by WayneDougan:

Originally posted by KopiKat:

The problem with a lot of our fans is if you don't believe Cal is the second coming of Jesus Christ in all areas of coaching, you are diluting Cal's coaching ability. Here is what I believe:




To be successful as a coach in college, you need to be good at recruiting, developing talent, and x's and o's
Cal is the best recruiter bar none - best in the last 20 years for sure
Cal is very good at developing talent, probably in the top 20%
Cal is a good (see the Final four run last year), but not great (see Mazzulla, Joe - PG-West Virginia) x's and o's guy
Pitino, when he was here, seemed to have a knack for getting the most out of slow, out-of-shape guys (e.g., Richie Farmer, Nazr Mohammed). I think Cal would rather just recruit over them - probably an easier and more successful approach anyway.

One final note, if you want to compare college to the NBA, the role of the college basketball head coach is both GM and coach. The role really is combined. So the role of any college head coach should be judged on the combined work of both of those jobs, measured in wins and titles. So you will never hear me knock Wooden's coaching because "he had the best players". His freaking job was to get the best players and win with them. And that's what Cal does too.

WRONG.

By your definition, Coach Cal should not have the best record in NCAA since coming to UK. top 20% in developing talent, and good at x and o...

LOL, he's top in developing talent, and top 5 in x's and o's.

If he isn't, he wouldn't have the most insane record at UK that he has.

Sorry I have to make you look like a moron, but we lost in the first round of the NIT with NBA talent, including your boy Wiltjer.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

Originally posted by bcox13:

Originally posted by WayneDougan:

Originally posted by KopiKat:

Every time I hear somebody try to dilute Cal's coaching ability by blaming his talent I think of Dean Smith's first national title and the names Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins and then I just laugh my @ss off. Or I can think of John Wooden and arguably the two greatest college basketball players of all time, Bill Walton and Lew Alcindor.

Pitino, when he was here, seemed to have a knack for getting the most out of slow, out-of-shape guys (e.g., Richie Farmer, Nazr Mohammed). I think Cal would rather just recruit over them - probably an easier and more successful approach anyway.

I know Cal didn't recrut him, but Josh Harrelson is the first person that comes to mind that makes your above post idiotic.

It doesn't make my post look idiotic at all. I said that Cal is in the top 20% at developing talent. But nice reading comprehension, junior.

 

[wall2rondo]

T1991-92 UMass 30-5 13-3 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1992-93 UMass 24-7 11-3 1st NCAA Second Round
1993-94 UMass 28-7 14-2 1st NCAA Second Round
1994-95 UMass 29-5 13-3 1st NCAA Elite Eight
1995-96 UMass 35-2* 15-1 1st NCAA Final Four*
Massachusetts: 189-70 (.730)* 91-41 (.689) y
Memphis Tigers (Conference USA) (2000-2009)
2000-01 Memphis 21-15 10-6 2nd (National) NIT Semifinals
2001-02 Memphis 27-9 12-4 1st (National) NIT Champions
2002-03 Memphis 23-7 13-3 1st (National) NCAA First Round
2003-04 Memphis 22-8 12-4 T-1st NCAA Second Round
2004-05 Memphis 22-16 9-7 T-6th NIT Semifinals
2005-06 Memphis 33-4 13-1 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2006-07 Memphis 33-4 16-0 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2007-08 Memphis 38-2** 16-0** 1st** NCAA Runner-up**
2008-09 Memphis 33-4 16-0 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
Memphis: 214-67 (.762)** 101-25 (.802)**
Kentucky Wildcats (Southeastern Conference) (2009-present)
2009-10 Kentucky 35-3 14-2 1st (East) NCAA Elite Eight
2010-11 Kentucky 29-9 10-6 2nd (East) NCAA Final Four
2011-12 Kentucky 38-2 16-0 1st NCAA Champions
2012-13 Kentucky 21-12 12-6 T-2nd NIT First Round
2013-14 Kentucky 29-11 12-6 T-2nd NCAA Runner-up
2014-15 Kentucky 19-0 6-0

 

[wall2rondo]

I think cal has a pretty good track,record and 30 win seasons and his tournament record is better than some hall of fame coaches that have done it longer
This post was edited on 1/25 4:41 PM by W2R

 

[Graves51]

I am sure Kyle would be heartbroken if he knew that so many on this forum think so little of his skills. The man is gone! He is starting on a highly ranked team and getting the opportunity to PLAY the game he loves. I hope he continues to be successful. I doubt if he ever second guesses his decision.