Lack of 3-point shooting

Quavarius

Heisman
Aug 12, 2009
175,637
22,032
0
I get everyone is stressed about the lack of outside shooting and I wish we could make more 3-point shots as well. But I also remember we had elite 3-point shooting teams that **** the bed in the NCAA Tournament because there was no inside game or defense to overcome a cold shooting night from beyond the perimeter.

If we had a mix of 3-point shooting to go along with that what have now, we would be an all-time great team. Now, we’re just a great team, which may be just enough for this season. I mean you literally have to find holes to pick at with this team since we do a lot of other things extraordinarily well. I’m not going to dwell on a lack of 3-point shooting. One suggestion I would make is to cut down on the attempts. Going 3-for-8 (38%) is a whole lot better than going 3-for-18 (17%).

This team is built for a deep NCAA Tournament run. A healthy Duke team can compete with all of the other contenders, warts and all.

I say this to say, I’m not worried about our lack of outside shooting.
 

LetsGoDuke301

Heisman
Apr 4, 2009
71,736
24,706
0
I feel you, Q. The Syracuse game proved one thing for me. We cannot rely on the 3 point shot and we need to stick to what gets us points. Duke missed 34 3 pointers and still only lost by 4 points in OT.

Live by, die by is something everyone always said Duke does. This year, we do not need to live by the three at all. But it has been proven that we can certainly die by it. I am more concerned with FT's. That is something that will kill us in March if it doesn't improve.
 

Quavarius

Heisman
Aug 12, 2009
175,637
22,032
0
I feel you, Q. The Syracuse game proved one thing for me. We cannot rely on the 3 point shot and we need to stick to what gets us points. Duke missed 34 3 pointers and still only lost by 4 points in OT.

Live by, die by is something everyone always said Duke does. This year, we do not need to live by the three at all. But it has been proven that we can certainly die by it. I am more concerned with FT's. That is something that will kill us in March if it doesn't improve.

I think we have the ability to improve from the FT more than 3 and I agree, they are more important (because of how we play). Barrett is becoming more reliable at the FT than Zion, so I want the ball in his hands (as well as Tre) at the end of games (a la Tyus and Quinn in 2015).
 

nets on nets on nets

All-American
Jun 4, 2015
4,162
5,515
0
Provided we come into the Tournament fully healthy, this will be the most confident I am in us cutting down the nets since....2004?? Maybe even 2002, I think our gap is wider this year than it was 2004.
-2010 was awesome, but I was worried we lacked enough quickness/athleticism and also our lack of depth.
-I loved our 2015 team but let's be honest...that 2015 UK team was a monster.

Defense/athleticism/length always travel. Great shooting doesn't always travel.
I truly believe that the only way were getting beat is if the game turns into one of those legendary "we shoot 1-24 from three" type games. Think we are gonna be way too battle-tested by March for that to happen.
 
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Quavarius

Heisman
Aug 12, 2009
175,637
22,032
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Provided we come into the Tournament fully healthy, this will be the most confident I am in us cutting down the nets since....2004?? Maybe even 2002, I think our gap is wider this year than it was 2004.
-2010 was awesome, but I was worried we lacked enough quickness/athleticism and also our lack of depth.
-I loved our 2015 team but let's be honest...that 2015 UK team was a monster.

Defense/athleticism/length always travel. Great shooting doesn't always travel.
I truly believe that the only way were getting beat is if the game turns into one of those legendary "we shoot 1-24 from three" type games. Think we are gonna be way too battle-tested by March for that to happen.

Agreed. VERY confident with a healthy team and it starts with defense! Defense travels and you’ll always be in the game if you have an elite defense.
 

HuffyJB

All-Conference
Jan 13, 2005
5,931
3,890
0
There isn't a team in America that doesn't have any questions. Outside shooting is obviously Duke's. I think it is a very real concern, but Duke has shown they can score at a high level anyway. I would much rather have that concern than worrying about whether or not they could stop people, or knowing that if the threes didn't fall they were toast.
 
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LouisiAaron

All-Conference
Feb 15, 2017
2,305
1,069
3
Outside shooting is a weakness but it’s not big enough to where we will lose if we miss a lot. Our defense is so elite and we limit the other team 3 point shot. Not to mention we lead the country in steals and blocks. The thing about our 3 point shooting is we aren’t taking bad 3s. 80% of those attempts are open shots that just aren’t falling. Cam is the only one that will take some contested 3s. Outside of that majority of our 3s are open shots. Good thing we don’t play tournament games at home because we can’t shoot at home at all this year. Maybe they get too hype or something. Our best shooting games have been on the road which is very odd but I’ll take that
 
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dukedevilz

Heisman
Apr 3, 2002
15,637
19,600
0
I'm okay only shooting 30% from three - mostly because our 3-point fg% defense is 28.9%. So while we stink at shooting the 3, it's actually offset by the fact that we guard the 3-point line incredibly well (notwithstanding the Gonzaga game).

Also agree with the statement that we need to get away from shooting so manly threes. Our 3-point percentage is 30.2%, and our 2-point shooting percentage is 58.8%. On those averages, if we took 100 3-point shots, we'd have 90.6 points. If we took 100 2-point shots, we'd have 117.6 points. 3-pointers are awesome if you can shoot close to 40%. But we don't do that - and it's not who we are. We need close, high percentage shots. Per every 100 shots, we're getting 27 more points by just shooting 2s.
 

Devilinside

All-Conference
Dec 30, 2010
2,214
2,166
0
I'm okay only shooting 30% from three - mostly because our 3-point fg% defense is 28.9%. So while we stink at shooting the 3, it's actually offset by the fact that we guard the 3-point line incredibly well (notwithstanding the Gonzaga game).

Also agree with the statement that we need to get away from shooting so manly threes. Our 3-point percentage is 30.2%, and our 2-point shooting percentage is 58.8%. On those averages, if we took 100 3-point shots, we'd have 90.6 points. If we took 100 2-point shots, we'd have 117.6 points. 3-pointers are awesome if you can shoot close to 40%. But we don't do that - and it's not who we are. We need close, high percentage shots. Per every 100 shots, we're getting 27 more points by just shooting 2s.
On the other hand we cannot afford to be no threat from three-point distance. Defenses will pack in so tight that getting to or near the hoop will become too difficult.
 
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nets on nets on nets

All-American
Jun 4, 2015
4,162
5,515
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Yeah, part of the reason we are so efficient at 2's is we are firing up 3's to keep the defense honest.
I'm fine with the way we are currently playing offense. It's just one of those things where, take RJ for example, if he is 0-5 on the day from 3, get to the dang rim and stop firing. Cam too. If we are ice cold, than there is no sense to continue shooting (see the Syracuse, TTU, and GT game).

Oh, Zion, I love that you are making the three at the moment, but I worry that you are gonna keep shooting them and not make them in the most important moments. Plus your our best rebounder, we need you down there bangin'.
 

DeepColor

Sophomore
May 26, 2018
258
169
0
Purdue crushes MSU while they were raining 3’s. Second half they couldn’t hit them as well and MSU caught up. If MSU could have guarded the 3 better they could have won. Duke needs to guard the 3 well especially if they aren’t making any.
 
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PatrickYates

Senior
Feb 7, 2018
1,154
563
0
Being able to hit some 3 pointers is important, but more important than that may be finding a consistent 3rd scoring option.

Realistically, these things are one and the same. For a consistent third scorer to emerge, it will likely require one of our guys (or, OK, Cam) to start hitting threes consistently.
.
We aren't going to get more scoring in the paint from a 3rd player. That well is pumping at max capacity. Zion and RJ get tons of points in or very near the paint. I'm not sure a third scorer could get enough on mid range jumpers, which are the worst shots in the game (almost as hard as 3s, but worth 2/3 the points).
.
The only way to get that third scorer, which we probably do need, is for someone to start hitting 3s. So, yes, the three point shooting is a problem.
 

Liftee

All-American
Mar 6, 2011
3,199
5,513
0
I'm sure the Duke program has all sorts of stats on where each player shoots best from at the 3 pt. line and if we get smarter on which 3 point shots are taken, the percentage will increase just enough to keep the defenses honest.

Besides, 3 point shots give an increased chance of offensive rebounds, an area in which we excel.
 

chov1125

All-Conference
Oct 15, 2008
3,044
1,826
73
I wish we could maintain the offensive efficiency that we’ve had in recent years but add in the ability to also get stops....oh wait we have that.
 

PatrickYates

Senior
Feb 7, 2018
1,154
563
0
I wish we could maintain the offensive efficiency that we’ve had in recent years but add in the ability to also get stops....oh wait we have that.

Do we? GT looked decent on O. So did the Cuse. The Zags shredded us. UVA just refused to make threes, despite numerous open looks.
.
If we are clear eyed and rational when we evaluate our D, we will have to admit that in true half court situations, our D isn't that great. Now, we attack passing lanes and tip passes and generate TOs well. But if the other team is methodical and careful with the ball, we aren't that effective outside blocked shots, which are more likely the result of outsize athleticism than solid defensive execution. Cuse, UVA, and GT (aka our last 3 opponents) had a distressing number of good looks at the rim, as well as open 3s.
.
If the opposition is stupid or lazy, we can and do feast. If the pass is slightly off target, or a little slow, or just dumb, we can get a finger on it, turning it into a loose ball, which favors our length and athleticism. It wasn't noticeable until conf play because no one had enough tape on Duke to formulate a strategy, thanks to so many frosh. Also, in the pre-season, there is simply no time to formulate and implement a strategy, nor is there much point in doing so vs a team you might not play again for years. Or when you are so overmatched, as most teams are. Further, early on, we looked unstoppable. Cam and Jack were stroking threes, RJ and Zion looked like they weren't as bad from 3 as expected, and Zion was unstoppable.
.
Conf teams are different. They have time (winter break) to analyze games and form a strategy. Because ACC teams only formulate strategies vs a few teams. In the last 4+ years, only UVA, Duke, UNC, FSU, Cuse, and Miami. This year, Miami is part of the pack, so teams just show up and play their game and try to win, because Miami isn't that good. Which is the plan vs the bottom of the conf: Play your game and hope to win. Further, vs most of those good teams, the strategy is similar from year to year:

Vs UNC: Rebound and run back on D
Vs UVA: Make threes and close out on their limited shooters
Vs Duke: Get out on our shooters and attack the rim vs Duke's Defense
Vs Cuse: Make 3s and close out on their shooters
Vs FSU: Play smart and hard on D vs their iffy offense

This year, both UVA and UNC have more shooters than usual. UNC is weaker on the boards and in the low post than usual, so that is a wash. Vs UVA, the strategy has to be tweaked, to get out on more shooters than usual, but it is a minor adjustment to the strategy that has been in place for the last 3-5 years.
.
Playing Duke is much different this year. We don't have shooters, and the helter-skelter attacks on the rim, so successful in the last decade or so, don't work. In previous years, methodical offenses didn't have much success vs Duke. In a brains/coaching matchup, Duke almost always wins. Conversely, attacking quickly, before we got set, worked very well. Our perimeter players were usually easy to get around, and there was often no real rim protection behind them (or no real depth if we did have a single rim protector). This year it is the opposite, and it took teams a while to catch on. Older players, experienced vs Duke, told youngsters to stick like glue to our guys on the perimeter, not to worry about the paint defense in the half court, and to try to attack quickly before our D gets set. The offense could be a little ragged vs Duke's defense, because getting going downhill, ASAP, was the most important thing.
.
This year, we are in the Upside Down. Let our shooters have wide open shots. Hopefully, most of our players will be dumb enough to take those enticing shots. Being careful with the ball is far more important than attacking with abandon. If our opponents aren't careful with the ball, we've got 3-4 guys on the court at all times that can generate steals. Teams are beginning to understand what our insane length and athleticism means to passing lanes. We gamble on D, but it works, a lot, because of that length and athleticism. With Bolden protecting the rim, rash penetration doesn't work (plus, Zion is lurking to make you look stupid on any iffy shot near the rim). But being careful and patient with the ball works incredibly well. Eventually, we gamble and fail, and then there are openings. Further, we leave a lot to be desired on closing out perimeter jumpers. Sure, Cuse and the Zags hit some tough jumpers. But they also hit a lot of wide open looks, which, you know, is expected.
.
I know, I know. UVA. They are methodical on O. Well, we didn't so much as stop them on O as they missed shots. A 40% 3pt team shot 17% at 2 of 17. If they shoot 25% (almost) at just 4 of 15, still an awful shooting night, they win. Guy and Jerome are great shooters who just choked. Some of that was our D, but a lot wasn't. We will start to see teams adjust to Duke. We have required the most adjustment, strategy wise, of any team in the ACC this year. Given that we are the biggest game on the schedule, teams can and have put in the time to devise a strategy vs Duke. If they can implement it due to time constraints, or execute it well enough, remain to be seen.
 

chov1125

All-Conference
Oct 15, 2008
3,044
1,826
73
Yes we are. We are top 5 in adjusted offense and adjusted defense. We are 17-2, with one of those losses being without Tre Jones, arguably our most important player. We have played the best of the best so far this year while earning those stats. Feel free to overthink and manipulate all you want, see above, but we are very efficient on both offense and defense.
 

consman

Sophomore
Dec 6, 2016
106
107
0
I'm okay only shooting 30% from three - mostly because our 3-point fg% defense is 28.9%. So while we stink at shooting the 3, it's actually offset by the fact that we guard the 3-point line incredibly well (notwithstanding the Gonzaga game).

Also agree with the statement that we need to get away from shooting so manly threes. Our 3-point percentage is 30.2%, and our 2-point shooting percentage is 58.8%. On those averages, if we took 100 3-point shots, we'd have 90.6 points. If we took 100 2-point shots, we'd have 117.6 points. 3-pointers are awesome if you can shoot close to 40%. But we don't do that - and it's not who we are. We need close, high percentage shots. Per every 100 shots, we're getting 27 more points by just shooting 2s.

Wait, I thought you had to hit 40% from 3 to equal 50% from 2? Have you checked your math with THR?
 

chov1125

All-Conference
Oct 15, 2008
3,044
1,826
73
I don’t see the percentage being our problem, I see the amount of 3’s taken coupled with our percentage being our problem. As efficient as our offense has been, it could be even better if we limit the amount of 3’s we take.

At this point of the year we are what our percentages say we are. Sure we could get hot for a game or even a streak of games but in all likelihood we are going to need to accept the fact that we are not a good 3 point shooting team. And that is fine. We have won a lot of games while missing a lot of 3’s I think we can only get better by limiting our takes.

We are a driving team. Drive the ball and good things will continue to happen. Take the 3 if it is wide open, if not keep working for a better shot.
 
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dukiejay

Heisman
Mar 2, 2005
11,293
16,311
0
Do we? GT looked decent on O. So did the Cuse. The Zags shredded us. UVA just refused to make threes, despite numerous open looks.
.
If we are clear eyed and rational when we evaluate our D, we will have to admit that in true half court situations, our D isn't that great. Now, we attack passing lanes and tip passes and generate TOs well. But if the other team is methodical and careful with the ball, we aren't that effective outside blocked shots, which are more likely the result of outsize athleticism than solid defensive execution. Cuse, UVA, and GT (aka our last 3 opponents) had a distressing number of good looks at the rim, as well as open 3s.
.
If the opposition is stupid or lazy, we can and do feast. If the pass is slightly off target, or a little slow, or just dumb, we can get a finger on it, turning it into a loose ball, which favors our length and athleticism. It wasn't noticeable until conf play because no one had enough tape on Duke to formulate a strategy, thanks to so many frosh. Also, in the pre-season, there is simply no time to formulate and implement a strategy, nor is there much point in doing so vs a team you might not play again for years. Or when you are so overmatched, as most teams are. Further, early on, we looked unstoppable. Cam and Jack were stroking threes, RJ and Zion looked like they weren't as bad from 3 as expected, and Zion was unstoppable.
.
Conf teams are different. They have time (winter break) to analyze games and form a strategy. Because ACC teams only formulate strategies vs a few teams. In the last 4+ years, only UVA, Duke, UNC, FSU, Cuse, and Miami. This year, Miami is part of the pack, so teams just show up and play their game and try to win, because Miami isn't that good. Which is the plan vs the bottom of the conf: Play your game and hope to win. Further, vs most of those good teams, the strategy is similar from year to year:

Vs UNC: Rebound and run back on D
Vs UVA: Make threes and close out on their limited shooters
Vs Duke: Get out on our shooters and attack the rim vs Duke's Defense
Vs Cuse: Make 3s and close out on their shooters
Vs FSU: Play smart and hard on D vs their iffy offense

This year, both UVA and UNC have more shooters than usual. UNC is weaker on the boards and in the low post than usual, so that is a wash. Vs UVA, the strategy has to be tweaked, to get out on more shooters than usual, but it is a minor adjustment to the strategy that has been in place for the last 3-5 years.
.
Playing Duke is much different this year. We don't have shooters, and the helter-skelter attacks on the rim, so successful in the last decade or so, don't work. In previous years, methodical offenses didn't have much success vs Duke. In a brains/coaching matchup, Duke almost always wins. Conversely, attacking quickly, before we got set, worked very well. Our perimeter players were usually easy to get around, and there was often no real rim protection behind them (or no real depth if we did have a single rim protector). This year it is the opposite, and it took teams a while to catch on. Older players, experienced vs Duke, told youngsters to stick like glue to our guys on the perimeter, not to worry about the paint defense in the half court, and to try to attack quickly before our D gets set. The offense could be a little ragged vs Duke's defense, because getting going downhill, ASAP, was the most important thing.
.
This year, we are in the Upside Down. Let our shooters have wide open shots. Hopefully, most of our players will be dumb enough to take those enticing shots. Being careful with the ball is far more important than attacking with abandon. If our opponents aren't careful with the ball, we've got 3-4 guys on the court at all times that can generate steals. Teams are beginning to understand what our insane length and athleticism means to passing lanes. We gamble on D, but it works, a lot, because of that length and athleticism. With Bolden protecting the rim, rash penetration doesn't work (plus, Zion is lurking to make you look stupid on any iffy shot near the rim). But being careful and patient with the ball works incredibly well. Eventually, we gamble and fail, and then there are openings. Further, we leave a lot to be desired on closing out perimeter jumpers. Sure, Cuse and the Zags hit some tough jumpers. But they also hit a lot of wide open looks, which, you know, is expected.
.
I know, I know. UVA. They are methodical on O. Well, we didn't so much as stop them on O as they missed shots. A 40% 3pt team shot 17% at 2 of 17. If they shoot 25% (almost) at just 4 of 15, still an awful shooting night, they win. Guy and Jerome are great shooters who just choked. Some of that was our D, but a lot wasn't. We will start to see teams adjust to Duke. We have required the most adjustment, strategy wise, of any team in the ACC this year. Given that we are the biggest game on the schedule, teams can and have put in the time to devise a strategy vs Duke. If they can implement it due to time constraints, or execute it well enough, remain to be seen.

I bet when you walk into a party the whole room gasps.
 

jcdevilfan

Senior
Jan 29, 2017
548
737
0
Agreed. VERY confident with a healthy team and it starts with defense! Defense travels and you’ll always be in the game if you have an elite defense.

Agree "Q" and the "D" along with health will be the key to our Tourney run. Also, I am still hoping that Cam finds his range by March, and I also think Alex might be a sleeper for this team in the tourney.
He really had the hot hand against 'Cuse, and I wish the Staff would have tried to create more opportunities for him since Jack was off. Alex is a baller, and I hope "K" finds the right button to push on him (consistency) between now & March. I think the haircut might have done it for Alex! ;)
Go Duke!
OFC
 
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skysdad

Heisman
Mar 3, 2006
42,753
22,653
0
We've been dealing with it all year. One of the games wear are going to fill the 3 ball up and everything will change. If it happens tonight that's great. The sooner the better. I believe once we get out of the rut then the whole team per centage goes way up.
OFC
 
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dukedevilz

Heisman
Apr 3, 2002
15,637
19,600
0
Wait, I thought you had to hit 40% from 3 to equal 50% from 2? Have you checked your math with THR?

Not sure if serious. But I'll do the math, just in case anyone is wondering.

40% of 100 3-point shots = .4*100*3= 120 points
50% of 100 2-point shots= .5*100*2= 100 points

33% on 3-pointers is equivalent to 50% on 2-pointers (.33*100*3= 100). But Duke is shooting 58.8% from 2, and 30.2% from 3. It's pretty clear that we need more 2-point shots, not less.
 

gottagonow

All-Conference
Apr 14, 2010
4,838
2,739
0
We've been dealing with it all year. One of the games wear are going to fill the 3 ball up and everything will change. If it happens tonight that's great. The sooner the better. I believe once we get out of the rut then the whole team per centage goes way up.
OFC
It sure makes it more fun when our shots go in and much less stressful. Even my dog likes me more when Duke shoots well.
 
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consman

Sophomore
Dec 6, 2016
106
107
0
Not sure if serious. But I'll do the math, just in case anyone is wondering.

40% of 100 3-point shots = .4*100*3= 120 points
50% of 100 2-point shots= .5*100*2= 100 points

33% on 3-pointers is equivalent to 50% on 2-pointers (.33*100*3= 100). But Duke is shooting 58.8% from 2, and 30.2% from 3. It's pretty clear that we need more 2-point shots, not less.
I was referencing the THR quotes thread from a year or 2 ago. One of the intellectuals
over there made that claim. :)
 
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dukehokie

All-American
Jun 27, 2005
19,624
6,220
0
Do we? GT looked decent on O. So did the Cuse. The Zags shredded us. UVA just refused to make threes, despite numerous open looks.
.
If we are clear eyed and rational when we evaluate our D, we will have to admit that in true half court situations, our D isn't that great. Now, we attack passing lanes and tip passes and generate TOs well. But if the other team is methodical and careful with the ball, we aren't that effective outside blocked shots, which are more likely the result of outsize athleticism than solid defensive execution. Cuse, UVA, and GT (aka our last 3 opponents) had a distressing number of good looks at the rim, as well as open 3s.
.
If the opposition is stupid or lazy, we can and do feast. If the pass is slightly off target, or a little slow, or just dumb, we can get a finger on it, turning it into a loose ball, which favors our length and athleticism. It wasn't noticeable until conf play because no one had enough tape on Duke to formulate a strategy, thanks to so many frosh. Also, in the pre-season, there is simply no time to formulate and implement a strategy, nor is there much point in doing so vs a team you might not play again for years. Or when you are so overmatched, as most teams are. Further, early on, we looked unstoppable. Cam and Jack were stroking threes, RJ and Zion looked like they weren't as bad from 3 as expected, and Zion was unstoppable.
.
Conf teams are different. They have time (winter break) to analyze games and form a strategy. Because ACC teams only formulate strategies vs a few teams. In the last 4+ years, only UVA, Duke, UNC, FSU, Cuse, and Miami. This year, Miami is part of the pack, so teams just show up and play their game and try to win, because Miami isn't that good. Which is the plan vs the bottom of the conf: Play your game and hope to win. Further, vs most of those good teams, the strategy is similar from year to year:

Vs UNC: Rebound and run back on D
Vs UVA: Make threes and close out on their limited shooters
Vs Duke: Get out on our shooters and attack the rim vs Duke's Defense
Vs Cuse: Make 3s and close out on their shooters
Vs FSU: Play smart and hard on D vs their iffy offense

This year, both UVA and UNC have more shooters than usual. UNC is weaker on the boards and in the low post than usual, so that is a wash. Vs UVA, the strategy has to be tweaked, to get out on more shooters than usual, but it is a minor adjustment to the strategy that has been in place for the last 3-5 years.
.
Playing Duke is much different this year. We don't have shooters, and the helter-skelter attacks on the rim, so successful in the last decade or so, don't work. In previous years, methodical offenses didn't have much success vs Duke. In a brains/coaching matchup, Duke almost always wins. Conversely, attacking quickly, before we got set, worked very well. Our perimeter players were usually easy to get around, and there was often no real rim protection behind them (or no real depth if we did have a single rim protector). This year it is the opposite, and it took teams a while to catch on. Older players, experienced vs Duke, told youngsters to stick like glue to our guys on the perimeter, not to worry about the paint defense in the half court, and to try to attack quickly before our D gets set. The offense could be a little ragged vs Duke's defense, because getting going downhill, ASAP, was the most important thing.
.
This year, we are in the Upside Down. Let our shooters have wide open shots. Hopefully, most of our players will be dumb enough to take those enticing shots. Being careful with the ball is far more important than attacking with abandon. If our opponents aren't careful with the ball, we've got 3-4 guys on the court at all times that can generate steals. Teams are beginning to understand what our insane length and athleticism means to passing lanes. We gamble on D, but it works, a lot, because of that length and athleticism. With Bolden protecting the rim, rash penetration doesn't work (plus, Zion is lurking to make you look stupid on any iffy shot near the rim). But being careful and patient with the ball works incredibly well. Eventually, we gamble and fail, and then there are openings. Further, we leave a lot to be desired on closing out perimeter jumpers. Sure, Cuse and the Zags hit some tough jumpers. But they also hit a lot of wide open looks, which, you know, is expected.
.
I know, I know. UVA. They are methodical on O. Well, we didn't so much as stop them on O as they missed shots. A 40% 3pt team shot 17% at 2 of 17. If they shoot 25% (almost) at just 4 of 15, still an awful shooting night, they win. Guy and Jerome are great shooters who just choked. Some of that was our D, but a lot wasn't. We will start to see teams adjust to Duke. We have required the most adjustment, strategy wise, of any team in the ACC this year. Given that we are the biggest game on the schedule, teams can and have put in the time to devise a strategy vs Duke. If they can implement it due to time constraints, or execute it well enough, remain to be seen.

If all you do is look at stats from UVA, then you miss half the story.

First, go watch the game again in its entirety. If you think Duke gave up a bunch of open threes, you’re sorely mistaken.

Second, the shooting percentages in that game were so high because the gameplan was simply “our guys get two better than your guys get two.” That simple. Bold strategy, Cotton.

Third, a part of playing turnover D is giving up some easy shots. That’s the trade off to creating 15-19 turnovers per game and getting 7.6 blocks per game, then turning that into almost 20 points off turnovers per game. That’s sick. And much more efficient and useful than being a 38% 3pt shooting team, at least in this college season.

Look, shooting from 3 is clearly a weakness, but I don’t personally view it as a season ending problem. If they can continue to hit some big shots down the stretch, I’ll take this 30% team any day.

We see so often, “dear Lord, how can Duke match up to this team?” False, every other team in the nation has to play against Duke’s style this year until proven otherwise.
 

df64

All-Conference
Feb 2, 2006
2,702
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Here is the good news. We have been winning and beating very good teams with 4 capable scorers-Tre, Cam, and Alex shooting poorly. Each of those guys has had 1, maybe 2 games out of what, 19 games where they shot well. We need 2 of those 4 to improve. Not JJ like, but noticeably improve. Not right away, but by the end of the season. I dont know about you guys, but I like those apples.
 
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Mac9192

Heisman
Jan 25, 2017
9,133
12,943
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Here is the good news. We have been winning and beating very good teams with 4 capable scorers-Tre, Cam, and Alex shooting poorly. Each of those guys has had 1, maybe 2 games out of what, 19 games where they shot well. We need 2 of those 4 to improve. Not JJ like, but noticeably improve. Not right away, but by the end of the season. I dont know about you guys, but I like those apples.
There’s reasons Alex doesn’t play that much, but shooting ain’t one of them. Probably our best shooter, just can’t stay on court.
 

dukehokie

All-American
Jun 27, 2005
19,624
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Also, let’s look at some notable NCAA title games, because ultimately, that’s where this team belongs. Let’s not pretend like high 3pt% is the best indicator of a champion.

Let’s start with the best % in forever. UNC/Nova. Nova won at 54% from three. End of story right? Wrong. UNC shot 64%. And lost.

Let’s go to Duke’s recent titles.
2014-2015 - 33%
2009-2010 - 29%
2000-2001 (the three point juggernaut) - 33%

And just for fun, I looked at Duke/UCONN 2003-2004. Duke shot 27%, UCONN shot 50% and Duke lost by 1 point (4 if you don’t count Duhon’s buzzer beater).

I didn’t post the other games, but the argument that tournament success is built on the three is not compelling. UNC shot 14% when they beat Gonzaga.

Titles are won when you mix teamwork with talent. Guys play tight in the tournament. If you can lock in on D and get stops, and score when presented with the opportunity, you win. It is what it is. What has this Duke team shown? That exact quality. I’ll shut up and listen now.
 

LouisiAaron

All-Conference
Feb 15, 2017
2,305
1,069
3
Do we? GT looked decent on O. So did the Cuse. The Zags shredded us. UVA just refused to make threes, despite numerous open looks.
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If we are clear eyed and rational when we evaluate our D, we will have to admit that in true half court situations, our D isn't that great. Now, we attack passing lanes and tip passes and generate TOs well. But if the other team is methodical and careful with the ball, we aren't that effective outside blocked shots, which are more likely the result of outsize athleticism than solid defensive execution. Cuse, UVA, and GT (aka our last 3 opponents) had a distressing number of good looks at the rim, as well as open 3s.
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If the opposition is stupid or lazy, we can and do feast. If the pass is slightly off target, or a little slow, or just dumb, we can get a finger on it, turning it into a loose ball, which favors our length and athleticism. It wasn't noticeable until conf play because no one had enough tape on Duke to formulate a strategy, thanks to so many frosh. Also, in the pre-season, there is simply no time to formulate and implement a strategy, nor is there much point in doing so vs a team you might not play again for years. Or when you are so overmatched, as most teams are. Further, early on, we looked unstoppable. Cam and Jack were stroking threes, RJ and Zion looked like they weren't as bad from 3 as expected, and Zion was unstoppable.
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Conf teams are different. They have time (winter break) to analyze games and form a strategy. Because ACC teams only formulate strategies vs a few teams. In the last 4+ years, only UVA, Duke, UNC, FSU, Cuse, and Miami. This year, Miami is part of the pack, so teams just show up and play their game and try to win, because Miami isn't that good. Which is the plan vs the bottom of the conf: Play your game and hope to win. Further, vs most of those good teams, the strategy is similar from year to year:

Vs UNC: Rebound and run back on D
Vs UVA: Make threes and close out on their limited shooters
Vs Duke: Get out on our shooters and attack the rim vs Duke's Defense
Vs Cuse: Make 3s and close out on their shooters
Vs FSU: Play smart and hard on D vs their iffy offense

This year, both UVA and UNC have more shooters than usual. UNC is weaker on the boards and in the low post than usual, so that is a wash. Vs UVA, the strategy has to be tweaked, to get out on more shooters than usual, but it is a minor adjustment to the strategy that has been in place for the last 3-5 years.
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Playing Duke is much different this year. We don't have shooters, and the helter-skelter attacks on the rim, so successful in the last decade or so, don't work. In previous years, methodical offenses didn't have much success vs Duke. In a brains/coaching matchup, Duke almost always wins. Conversely, attacking quickly, before we got set, worked very well. Our perimeter players were usually easy to get around, and there was often no real rim protection behind them (or no real depth if we did have a single rim protector). This year it is the opposite, and it took teams a while to catch on. Older players, experienced vs Duke, told youngsters to stick like glue to our guys on the perimeter, not to worry about the paint defense in the half court, and to try to attack quickly before our D gets set. The offense could be a little ragged vs Duke's defense, because getting going downhill, ASAP, was the most important thing.
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This year, we are in the Upside Down. Let our shooters have wide open shots. Hopefully, most of our players will be dumb enough to take those enticing shots. Being careful with the ball is far more important than attacking with abandon. If our opponents aren't careful with the ball, we've got 3-4 guys on the court at all times that can generate steals. Teams are beginning to understand what our insane length and athleticism means to passing lanes. We gamble on D, but it works, a lot, because of that length and athleticism. With Bolden protecting the rim, rash penetration doesn't work (plus, Zion is lurking to make you look stupid on any iffy shot near the rim). But being careful and patient with the ball works incredibly well. Eventually, we gamble and fail, and then there are openings. Further, we leave a lot to be desired on closing out perimeter jumpers. Sure, Cuse and the Zags hit some tough jumpers. But they also hit a lot of wide open looks, which, you know, is expected.
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I know, I know. UVA. They are methodical on O. Well, we didn't so much as stop them on O as they missed shots. A 40% 3pt team shot 17% at 2 of 17. If they shoot 25% (almost) at just 4 of 15, still an awful shooting night, they win. Guy and Jerome are great shooters who just choked. Some of that was our D, but a lot wasn't. We will start to see teams adjust to Duke. We have required the most adjustment, strategy wise, of any team in the ACC this year. Given that we are the biggest game on the schedule, teams can and have put in the time to devise a strategy vs Duke. If they can implement it due to time constraints, or execute it well enough, remain to be seen.

You make us sound so average. If I didn't actually watch games I would think we won't make it past the 1st weekend
 

dukehokie

All-American
Jun 27, 2005
19,624
6,220
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Also, the last NCAA champion in the top 10 in the country in three point shooting? UCONN in 2003-2004 at #7 with 40% (Nova last year was 11 with 40.3%). Side note, that UConn team I saw in 2003-2004 vs VT, hands down the best shooting team I’ve seen live. It was amazing.

Anyway, there’s been 5 ncaa champions in the top 10 since 2000 who were top 10 in field goal percentage D and a plethora of Final Four participants in the same boat. Effective field goal percentage D is the same story. This season, Duke is 7th in both.

Of note, Duke was top 10 in three point percentage in both 2012-2013 and 2013-2014. What does that say?
 

dukehokie

All-American
Jun 27, 2005
19,624
6,220
0
You make us sound so average. If I didn't actually watch games I would think we won't make it past the 1st weekend

Right?! Again, stats and false remberances are just a portion of the story. Just one look at this team, and the shooting thing is totally overblown. We’ve cried for defense for years. We have it now and people are losing their minds about shooting. Defense wins championships, look at the stats.
 

LouisiAaron

All-Conference
Feb 15, 2017
2,305
1,069
3
Right?! Again, stats and false remberances are just a portion of the story. Just one look at this team, and the shooting thing is totally overblown. We’ve cried for defense for years. We have it now and people are losing their minds about shooting. Defense wins championships, look at the stats.

Tonight further proves that we just don't shoot good in Cameron. I don't know why that is but our best 3pt shooting games were away from Cameron. As long as we keep playing defense we will win. We have two unstoppable force and another guy that can go off at any point. I want came to break out so bad. Once he gain strength he will be a major problem