Yes, this should have been the end of it so far as UK and Tubman are concerned. Laypeople pretending to be judges, lawyers and at the same time, juries are unjust on its face. Tubman has a right to due process and he did not receive it. It is no wonder so many schools are being sued over their kangaroo courts. Serious crimes should be handled by the professional legal system, never by a group of academics entranced by their unbridled power. That simply isn't the American way.
Latest I Have Heard On Tubman...
- Thread starter sluggercatfan
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I did not intend to get into a debate about this. But your single government reference, even with its systemic conflicts, acknowledges that assaults on college campuses remain a huge problem. If your kid was assaulted, would you take comfort in a single government source's statistical data suggesting the rate of occurrence is "going down"? I doubt it. I could show you government data that purports to illustrate illegal immigration does not present a tax burden on the middle class, but nobody seriously believes that conclusion is valid. I work in the security business, and I do not believe for a moment that occurrence of assaults on college campuses is decreasing. I won't present a white paper on a sports website, but we have plenty of information to the contrary. Campus security measures are becoming more sophisticated, and methods of reporting are changing. Campus assaults now get processed through a variety of different investigation and enforcement channels, but that's a different discussion. If you think you can dismiss this by saying "next", that's shallow and I really can't take you seriously. Tubman is gone because the leadership of the University has a policy necessitated by the ugly realities of human behavior and their fiduciary responsibility to protect all students. People who morph this into something else do so at the risk of showing callous ignorance.
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You provide anecdotal evidence - " I work in the security business and ...etc" - and expect that to take precedence over hard nationwide numbers that you can't refute other than with "systemic conflicts", whatever the hell that means to you. Net, of course, "Next". No one is saying it's not a problem, but exaggeration doesn't help a cause. ANd it's only a debate because you let your emotions override facts. First you deride that the data is a "single government reference" (For years & years of data) that somehow means we're not to take it seriously/factually & yet then you turn around and cite it as an authority on it remaining a "huge problem". You don't get to pick & choose which parts you like. Make up your mind.
Tubman did not testify at the grand jury. Her word only. A prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich if he or she wants. It was a crap case. Talk to any criminal lawyer.
In light of recent events unrelated to Tubman, or UK on various college campuses... Those events serve as an example of who is running the college business... What goes on at College U, shouldn't be viewed with the same frame of refereance as where 99% of us live, work, and interact with one another... The question I would like to see debated by the talking heads on the board is...
Would Mr. Tubman have fared better had this incident happened off campus? I think it quite likely he would have.
Would Mr. Tubman have fared better had this incident happened off campus? I think it quite likely he would have.
LOL! I participate in security conferences where entire programs are dedicated to prevention and reporting of campus assault. But it doesn't matter whether you believe me or not. You have already made up your mind. People believe what they believe on Tubman for different reasons, but everyone's opinions are hardened by now. Every previous thread about Tubman has turned into a circus. When we consult for Universities redesigning their campus security systems, every school's top priority these days is setting up high tech systems that allow students to quickly call for help when they have been accosted or assaulted so that investigation and victim support can be immediately implemented. The reason your single government study came to its conclusion is that new policies and laws have created many more outcome classifications and pathways than previously existed. When an attempted assault is disrupted nowadays by a rapid responder, it usually isn't classified as an assault for statistical purposes. Nobody in the business believes that attempted assaults are decreasing. If you believe that campus assaults aren't a huge problem, then you have been living in a cave.
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We don't punish people just because they were accused of wrongdoing, regardless of stats about campus violence.
You are confusing 2 different topics. People are not subject to criminal penalties untIl guilt has been established by trial. University policies are a different matter. University policies are established to protect ALL student, and to limit the University's civil liability. The University conducts its own investigations, and usually has access to work products not known to the public. People who criticize schools like UL and Tennessee for protecting athletes who behave poorly should be happy that officials at the University of Kentucky don't think or operate that way. Tubman's case may fall in a gray area. But in the end, the University of Kentucky is more concerned about establishing and implementing policies that keep the campus safe, than about protecting athletes who have been involved in incidents that spawn criminal investigations. Nobody has said Tubman shouldn't get a higher education. They only said it won't happen at the University of Kentucky. The University of Kentucky clearly has this prerogative.
There is no confusion. And, institutions of higher learning, especially those that are state institutions, should not punish for "grey areas." The university keeps no one safe by extolling punishment by utilizing low threshold standards. I suspect you are aware of the low bar that is needed for an indictment. Tubman did not put on a lick of evidence in his defense and the grand jury came back with a no true bill.
And, if you think universities are interested in just actions more than reputation, you should speak with law enforcement about how campuses attempt to avoid arrests to keep stats low for publication. I think you are confused about the motivations of a university that should be the example of justice in communities.
Liberals are always about CYA
Those are stats for incidents 'reported' on campus. There are quite a few that go un-reported. You must be young.
There are multiple sides to it. There are sexual assaults that happen and are reported, sexual assaults that happen and go unreported, and reports of sexual assaults that never actually happened. You cannot punish the accused in the 3rd category just because of the wrongdoings by people in the first two categories. It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. Reality is, Tubman was done very wrong, and should be allowed to receive his education at UK.
I know that this assertion has been made previously, but is there.evidence that a second charge was labeled against another fab player and that the ***** data was blurred because of more than one individual being involved in the act of intercourse with the person making the charge?????
Fuzz77, based solely on the video, Tubman approaching the accuser's dorm&his admittance by the accuser-then the subsequent escorting of Tubman from the dorm by the accuser following his presence in the dorm, blows your comment, regarding the parents of the accuser, totally out of the water!!!!
Based upon the lack of the justice system not going to trial with this case, and based upon the visual evidence in the video's of the arrival and the departure of Tubman from the accuser's dorm-----I find it preposterous that a student senate(probably the wrong characterization here), could defy common sense, and recommend tubman's expulsion!!!! This whole affair has dumbfounded me from the time the charges were first made!!!
True.
But it is also true that there are plenty of cases now reported that wouldn't have been before because the woman is looked at more sympathetically now than they ever have been before, which would probably account for any increase in the stats. And I think the actual rapes have probably gone down because of it, jerks are more afraid that it will be reported which is a tremendous hassle and even life changing event even if the charges are dismissed, see Tubman, and the reported rapes are up because of it.
Tubman has undergone a lot of punishment already, along with his family and reputation, whether he did it or not. Read the book "Adams vs Texas" for an example of how unfair our justice system is at times. It is controlled by our lawyers, some of them wearing robes.
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I like the way you say that actual rapes have "probably gone down" and "jerks are more afraid" of being reported. Where do you get this? Probably? Really? Get off of the Adams v. Texas book. Different situation.
I agree with both of you that people can be wrongfully accused. It happens regularly. I hope Tubman was wrongfully accused. But, you don't know one way or the other. No one knows except the two involved. Quit talking about ham sandwiches because you are a football fan. You, me and everyone on this board is without enough information to have an informed opinion about what happened, so why don't we drop the subject and move on.
How about they concern themselves with evidence and a fair way to confront their accuser. If you think that is what happens, you are out of your mind.
Like most here I don't have a clue what actually went on in this situation. But for the guy, the timing couldn't have been any worse for him, all of the domestic violence by athletes was front page news. Right or wrong, it put UK in the spotlight and it was put in a no win situation. So it chose the safe route, even Saban caught heat for allowing the kid UGA dismissed because he beat up his girlfriend, CMS doesn't have the media pull Saban does and I think the media would have painted a pretty dark picture of him and UK if he had been allowed to return, Not fair to anyone, but in todays need to be PC, UK's back was backed into a corner and the accused become the victim.
Now I believe every woman has the right to say no whenever she chooses, but if she is proven to have made false accusations I think she should be given the same sentence a rapist would get and be labeled a sex offender, just like she was trying to do to the man. Making a false statement charge just doesn't seem to cut it to me.
