Losses to bad teams

[NJcatsfan_rivals139741]

I’m not a Collins basher. Nor am I a Carmody hater. I find those debates on here to be tiresome. Each coach played a pivotal role in bringing our program to respectability/competitiveness (BC)...and ultimately the promised land (CC).

I will say that even in the lean BC years, I can’t recall this number of DREADFUL losses at home against BAD opponents that we literally pay to come play us. Collins was asked about the team’s lack of fire in the first half today & he said to ask the players. What kind of answer is that? There is a coaching issue here. I’m not calling for his ouster & I think we have a real chance of getting good in the next few years. But these type of home losses are unacceptable, and they can’t be chalked up as flukes. Frustrating.

 

[GatoLouco]

Youth is not an excuse to lose against a team we should beat by 20+ at home. We have plenty of talent, young or otherwise, to beat Hartford easily.

Collins is just not a great basketball mind. He’s out coached 90% of the time. Before and during the game. There’s also a sense the players might be starting to not believe him. Just letting him bark.

He’s a good recruiter though. Better than what you could expect from most coaches that could take the job. And, therefore, might be a good fit for us.

 

[Sec_112]

... Collins was asked about the team’s lack of fire in the first half today & he said to ask the players. What kind of answer is that? ...

Yes, it's a horsesh*t answer. But in the interest of accuracy and context, the following five or six sentences make it a more reasonable explanation and discussion.

That doesn' take away from the fact that they came out like dogs, and EVERYBODY knew it.

Up and down. Up and down.

 

[Alan Smithee_rivals156293]

I had other obligations during the game, and when I saw the final I deleted the recording without watching it. So I'm not really in a position to comment, but hearing the suggestion that we started without much energy or effort is really disappointing. I'd hoped that lesson was already learned the hard way.

 

[IdahoAlum]

I think Collins' record against lousy teams and in close games both testify to the fact he's a lousy coach. Good recruiter. Probably the best we're going to do in the short term. But I wonder how he's able to sell recruits on this program when we're losing to Hartford and Merrimack. Pretty remarkable, really. At some point, though, I'd think even 18-year-old kids are going to catch on to the fact that he's not a good coach and the recruiting will dry up. We'll see.

 

[freewillie07]

I think Collins' record against lousy teams and in close games both testify to the fact he's a lousy coach. Good recruiter. Probably the best we're going to do in the short term. But I wonder how he's able to sell recruits on this program when we're losing to Hartford and Merrimack. Pretty remarkable, really. At some point, though, I'd think even 18-year-old kids are going to catch on to the fact that he's not a good coach and the recruiting will dry up. We'll see.

It is quite surprising that he has not developed more as an in-game coach over the last few years.

 

[GatoLouco]

It’s more than just in game. It’s also before the game. Don’t really see any coherent defensive or offensive principles in our game.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

He's not a good X's and O's coach. He also doesn't seem to be particularly good at motivating players. After our tourney season he admitted that he "lost the locker room" and that he didn't have the team in the right mindset to compete. And the losses to Radford, Merrimack, Hartford? To me that's lack of discipline and motivation. To be fair its gotta be tough to get up for playing Merrimack and Hartford in empty arenas. But he has to find a way to light that fire.

He does seem to be a good recruiter. Time will tell whether this particular strength can makeup for his other weaknesses.

I've said this before, but I think Duke always has such a massive talent advantage that I don't know whether there is/was as strong as an emphasis on the technical parts of coaching.

I think the jury really is still out on Collins as a head coach.

 

[JournCat]

My hot take is the zeitgeist has him backward. I think he's a slightly better in-game coach than people often say. He's produced three KenPom top-40 defenses in six full seasons, and while his teams' offensive ratings have been bad, opposing coaches and broadcasters often comment on the quality and quantity of plays we run. On the flip side ... yes, Collins has brought in recruits with good star ratings and major offers. How many players have shown up ready to play or improved in our program? How many guys who were presumably stars in high school seem timid now? How many guys during his tenure could you trust to dribble in crunch time or create their own shot? I count two on the last question: McIntosh and Tre Demps. Maybe three now with Buie. No amount of in-game strategery can cover up our flaws in recruiting and player development.

 

[Jeffrey Cat]

My hot take is the zeitgeist has him backward. I think he's a slightly better in-game coach than people often say. He's produced three KenPom top-40 defenses in six full seasons, and while his teams' offensive ratings have been bad, opposing coaches and broadcasters often comment on the quality and quantity of plays we run. On the flip side ... yes, Collins has brought in recruits with good star ratings and major offers. How many players have shown up ready to play or improved in our program? How many guys who were presumably stars in high school seem timid now? How many guys during his tenure could you trust to dribble in crunch time or create their own shot? I count two on the last question: McIntosh and Tre Demps. Maybe three now with Buie. No amount of in-game strategery can cover up our flaws in recruiting and player development.

Maybe we should can Collins and bring in Frank Martin from the South Carolina Gamecocks. His boys just got beat by the Stetson Hatters, the dregs of the Atlantic Sun Conference. Upsets do happen and these so called mid majors are getting better and better. There are a lot of young guys starting in basketball with better facilities and excellent coaching. The net effect is you have one upset after another in November and December.

I went to the game yesterday, my first and probably last NU game this year, as I live in Florida all winter nowadays. I thought Hartford had very good backcourt people and that is very important in college basketball.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with Northwestern basketball is the school’s admissions department.
If your a basketball program trying to build your way back up from being down for many years a little help from admissions would be happily accepted. Watch the Loyola/Valpo game tonight at seven and you’ll see one of the great rejections of admissions, Javon Freeman who is looking more and more like the Missouri Valley player of the year. It’s to bad a great “liberal” institution like Northwestern can’t give a minority kid from Whitney Young a break. As you can tell I’ve had it with Northwestern’s attitude of requiring a donation with season tickets and the turning their nose up to the marginal acceptance. By the way I’m not alone either.

 

[NJCat]

Maybe we should can Collins and bring in Frank Martin from the South Carolina Gamecocks. His boys just got beat by the Stetson Hatters, the dregs of the Atlantic Sun Conference. .

I saw that score and had the same thought. Old Frank was a hot commodity not too long ago.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Man, you guys are a tough crowd. We had zero upperclassman yesterday. Turner was riding the bike the second half and Gaines was in his civies.

Yesterday was not CCC’s best game, but when you shot like crap you will look listless. Did anyone really think with this team we Weren’t going to lose to crappy teams? Jacked up too many 3’s and this team has only two players where that is a good shot. Spencer seems to lost his confidence. Greer played decent D, but he pounds the ball on O and offense slows down. Despite Spencer’s poor game, he needed to be in there for a few of those final sets where they overplayed Boo and Kopp.

I don’t know what to say about Pete. Floated around the 3 point line yesterday and his D was suspect. He has too much talent to get only a few shots. Don’t know if it it the Coaches, the other players, or Pete himself, but CCC should demand he takes 6-8 shots minimum from 15 feet and in. Young could have had 25 if they worked the ball inside. Just bizarre offensive sets. The crowd wasn’t bad and shouldn’t be blamed for the poor start.

 

[Sec_112]

... It’s to bad a great “liberal” institution like Northwestern can’t give a minority kid from Whitney Young a break ...

STANDING O!!

And as we've seen regularly, that attitude goes far beyond the admissions office.

 

[IdahoAlum]

Maybe we should can Collins and bring in Frank Martin from the South Carolina Gamecocks. His boys just got beat by the Stetson Hatters, the dregs of the Atlantic Sun Conference. Upsets do happen and these so called mid majors are getting better and better. There are a lot of young guys starting in basketball with better facilities and excellent coaching. The net effect is you have one upset after another in November and December.

I went to the game yesterday, my first and probably last NU game this year, as I live in Florida all winter nowadays. I thought Hartford had very good backcourt people and that is very important in college basketball.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with Northwestern basketball is the school’s admissions department.
If your a basketball program trying to build your way back up from being down for many years a little help from admissions would be happily accepted. Watch the Loyola/Valpo game tonight at seven and you’ll see one of the great rejections of admissions, Javon Freeman who is looking more and more like the Missouri Valley player of the year. It’s to bad a great “liberal” institution like Northwestern can’t give a minority kid from Whitney Young a break. As you can tell I’ve had it with Northwestern’s attitude of requiring a donation with season tickets and the turning their nose up to the marginal acceptance. By the way I’m not alone either.

Please, please, please STOP with the admissions excuses. Collins has been recruiting players with multiple P-5 offers. They don't develop and they don't win games. He's 1-10 in games decided by 5 points or less the last two seasons. He's losing to Merrimack, Hartford, Radford....Those loses are on the coaching staff and the players, NOT admissions.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Please, please, please STOP with the admissions excuses. Collins has been recruiting players with multiple P-5 offers. They don't develop and they don't win games. He's 1-10 in games decided by 5 points or less the last two seasons. He's losing to Merrimack, Hartford, Radford....Those loses are on the coaching staff and the players, NOT admissions.

They are partially on the Coaches and partially on the players. Sorry, but there are players that need to step up despite the hand they have been dealt with questionable offensive sets. You have to have that fire in your make up where you refuse to continue lose to inferior talent. NU should beat that team with you or me Coaching. Take the floor with some swag.

As far as admissions, there is NO doubt NU is at a competitive disadvantage to every other program in the conference. NU is by far the toughest job in the conference. The Freeman example given earlier is real. Just because CCC has got some 4 star recruits doesn’t mean we have a level playing field in recruiting. Not even close. It’s amazing he has got what he has got. Now he needs to chill out and teach, hopefully in a positive manner with a young group.

 

[GatoLouco]

Sec.112 said:

↑



Jeffrey Cat said:

↑



... It’s to bad a great “liberal” institution like Northwestern can’t give a minority kid from Whitney Young a break ...Click to expand...Click to expand...[/quote]

STANDING O!!

And as we've seen regularly, that attitude goes far beyond the admissions office.
[/quote]


Double standing O.

I hate to beat the dead horse subject of admissions. It’s been discussed so many times. But...

I do have a moral issue with our admission standards. Pretty much every player we get would be fine in life, regardless of going to NU or not. If they were not freak athletes capable of playing at this level, they’d still be fine. They’d go on to get a degree and live a good life.

So what we do is denying a chance at upward mobility to kids that probably were dealt a bad hand to start off with.

Not defending accepting just about anyone. But it seems to me the standard should be closer to “don’t embarrass us or we will kick you out”.

Having said all this, We have plenty of talent, young or not, to beat Hartford easily. CC has recruited said talent. But shows very limited ability to use it efficiently.

 

[lunker35]

Sec.112 said:

↑



Jeffrey Cat said:

↑



... It’s to bad a great “liberal” institution like Northwestern can’t give a minority kid from Whitney Young a break ...Click to expand...Click to expand...

STANDING O!!

And as we've seen regularly, that attitude goes far beyond the admissions office.
[/quote]


Double standing O.

I hate to beat the dead horse subject of admissions. It’s been discussed so many times. But...

I do have a moral issue with our admission standards. Pretty much every player we get would be fine in life, regardless of going to NU or not. If they were not freak athletes capable of playing at this level, they’d still be fine. They’d go on to get a degree and live a good life.

So what we do is denying a chance at upward mobility to kids that probably were dealt a bad hand to start off with.

Not defending accepting just about anyone. But it seems to me the standard should be closer to “don’t embarrass us or we will kick you out”.

Having said all this, We have plenty of talent, young or not, to beat Hartford easily. CC has recruited said talent. But shows very limited ability to use it efficiently.[/QUOTE]
They’re too busy on their crusade to eliminate the word Freshman.

 

[Fitz51]

Hey guys, it’s only sports.

 

[cometclear]

I can't think of one Coach K disciple who has been a raging success. Brey has been perfectly good much of the time, but is not a great coach. Wojo is decent. Johnny Dawkins couldn't get it done at Stanford but is doing well at a lower level. Same with Amaker. Quin Snyder flopped. Capel has struggled.

 

[Medill90]

First, I share your sense of moral conflict w NU admissions in regards to revenue sports. I'd love to see admissions lose their **** with Morty just once because of a celeb's kid who as let in because they are...wait for it...a celeb's kid. And I would be the last person to point out that the celeb kids are 99% white. But, at the end of the day, they've achieved more being born into wealth than a decent but not great student athlete who is admitted into a university, takes classes and passes them all while simultaneously doing the 52 week each year sports training thing.

Sure, take the TV revenue like the ----s you are, use it to fund all the other sports....and then sniff at the odoriferous basketball coaches who stoop to insult the meaning of higher education by attempting to intrude a bit more diversity into the student body.

Got lost on a rant there...sorry. I guess my point is I agree with both sides...six years in admissions aren't an excuse....but they are part of the reason.

And in regards to the responsibility the players have I offer the following quote from the Redskins Jonathan Allen after their loss to the Bear's:

“We’re supposed to be the best athletes in the world,” Allen said. “If you don’t have the mental toughness to stay focused after three weeks in a 17-week regular season, I don’t know what to tell you. Each guy has to be held accountable and just take it from there. There ain’t no magic sauce to get this thing turned around. It’s just doing the little things right. And that’s what we’ve gotta do. … We gonna circle the wagons in this mother------ and we’re gonna get **** right. Believe that.”

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Hey guys, it’s only sports.

Not really, it’s major revenue. And they seek major commitments from people like you. For tickets, for parking passes, for access - all for the pleasure of enjoying the product that they field.

Just sports? Drop out of the B1G, join the Ivy and remove athletic scholarships. Then it’s just like peewee ball.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Everyone is using Freeman as an example. What evidence does anyone have to proven he would not have been mishandled by this coaching staff and a fraction of the player that you see now?

 

[NJCat]

What evidence does anyone have to proven he would have been mishandled by this coaching staff and a fraction of the player that you see now?

I think you are missing a "not" before the "have", or this sentence makes zero sense. Or you have been hitting the mai tais early this afternoon.

 

[Catreporter]

The two senior guards Hartford had out there were better than ANY guards we currently have on our roster. If admissions did deny Freeman, that is a monumental FAIL.

 

[NJCat]

Another one......Iowa State lost to a 1-9 Florida A&M tonight.

 

[Curdog7]

Another one......Iowa State lost to a 1-9 Florida A&M tonight.

Hartford just lost to Bowling Green by 13

 

[Alan Smithee_rivals156293]

Hartford just lost to Bowling Green by 13

So the Bowling Green Massacre was real?

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

The problem with so many bad losses is that it puts you in a position of possibly having a historically bad season. I did a quick look and found that this could be our second worst season ever. I had a flicker of hope earlier, but now I am pretty sure they will lose every B1G game, including a B1G tourney game. This would leave them worse then even Kevin Os 99-00 team. That is Rick Venturi bad.

I am only a casual fan and maybe missing something but they appear rudderless

I will be happy to be wrong.

 

[Katatonic]

I'm tired of the youth excuse for repeated bad losses - sure, teams have one every now and then, but to keep having them against teams that should't beat a decent P5 program (yeah, the 'Cats aren't a decent P5 program right now).

Take the 2009-10 team that finished w/ a 20-14 record (1st rnd of the NIT) and zero bad losses.

The top 6 scorers:

Shurna - SO
Juice - JR
Crawford - FR
Nash - SR
Luka - SO
Marcotullio - FR

While Juice was a JR, he was good the moment he stepped on campus (actually had a higher FG%, including from the 3 pt line as a FR), so a FR Juice wouldn't have been much of a downgrade, if at all.

So that leaves Nash as the only upperclassman.

Take Nash away and likely still seeing somewhere around a .500 record.

Nash's stats are actually similar to Spencer's.

Shooting - FG%/3P%

Kopp - .455/.415
Boo - .429/.333

Young - .587/.143
Nance - .419/.304
Spencer - .412/.292
Gaines - .375/.313
Beran - .389/.429
Turner - .300/.143


Shurna - .459/.355
Juice - .423/.411

Crawford - .447/.342
Nash - .372/.291
Luka - .481/.346
Marcotullio - .388/.369

Kopp and Boo make a nice facsimile of Shurna and Juice.

Kopp actually shooting better from the arc than Johnny, but Juice making up for that (Juice was always under-appreciated for his 3 pt shot).

The problem is that there isn't anyone else on the roster who can make 3s w/ any regularity.

The closest is Nance, but he's hovering around .300 (there should be no reason for his overall FG% to be that much lower than Crawford's, considering he has 3-4 inches on Drew).

Beran has a nice 3P%-rate, but hasn't attempted many shots.

Still, this team shouldn't be this bad.

 

[CatJones]

Yale and Harvard better than the Cats this year, even with tougher admissions and no athletic scholarships.

 

[Medill90]

Yale and Harvard better than the Cats this year, even with tougher admissions and no athletic scholarships.

Admissions for basketball is not harder at Harvard than NU.

I can't speak to Yale.

 

[Medill90]

Harvard will also have a graduate transfer this summer.

4* wing who was a double digit scorer.

 

[TheC]

The problem with so many bad losses is that it puts you in a position of possibly having a historically bad season. I did a quick look and found that this could be our second worst season ever. I had a flicker of hope earlier, but now I am pretty sure they will lose every B1G game, including a B1G tourney game. This would leave them worse then even Kevin Os 99-00 team. That is Rick Venturi bad.

I am only a casual fan and maybe missing something but they appear rudderless

I will be happy to be wrong.

After watching some games with Minnesota, Illinois and Iowa this year, I am back to worrying about this too. These teams are clearly bigger, stronger, faster and better shooters than us. Maybe we'll get a fluke upset somewhere, but I expect us to be decided underdogs in every remaining game.

 

[JournCat]

Juice - JR

I read your whole post but got caught on this line. Talk about the good ol' days. You'd think we could camp out at Lincoln Park, Whitney Young, and maybe five other high-achieving schools and offer the best point guard out of all of them every year.

 

[willycat]

After watching some games with Minnesota, Illinois and Iowa this year, I am back to worrying about this too. These teams are clearly bigger, stronger, faster and better shooters than us. Maybe we'll get a fluke upset somewhere, but I expect us to be decided underdogs in every remaining game.

Illinois lost by 20 to MSU. Just saying.

 

[hdhntr1]

Man, you guys are a tough crowd. We had zero upperclassman yesterday. Turner was riding the bike the second half and Gaines was in his civies.

Yesterday was not CCC’s best game, but when you shot like crap you will look listless. Did anyone really think with this team we Weren’t going to lose to crappy teams? Jacked up too many 3’s and this team has only two players where that is a good shot. Spencer seems to lost his confidence. Greer played decent D, but he pounds the ball on O and offense slows down. Despite Spencer’s poor game, he needed to be in there for a few of those final sets where they overplayed Boo and Kopp.

I don’t know what to say about Pete. Floated around the 3 point line yesterday and his D was suspect. He has too much talent to get only a few shots. Don’t know if it it the Coaches, the other players, or Pete himself, but CCC should demand he takes 6-8 shots minimum from 15 feet and in. Young could have had 25 if they worked the ball inside. Just bizarre offensive sets. The crowd wasn’t bad and shouldn’t be blamed for the poor start.

My issue is that many players seem to play smaller than they are. Trying to be finesse players rather than someone willing to go inside. 6'10/11 guys taking 3 pointers on occasion is one thing but when they try to make their living outside the 3 pt line.... We play soft.

 

[Username Not Available]

I was thinking about Juice in the Greer thread. Juice was one of our best underrated 3 point shooters. People were always watching Coble, Shurna, Crawford, meanwhile Juice would pop a few almost every game quietly and confidently.

also, I miss Senior Nash’s game.

 

[GatoLouco]

First, I share your sense of moral conflict w NU admissions in regards to revenue sports. I'd love to see admissions lose their **** with Morty just once because of a celeb's kid who as let in because they are...wait for it...a celeb's kid. And I would be the last person to point out that the celeb kids are 99% white. But, at the end of the day, they've achieved more being born into wealth than a decent but not great student athlete who is admitted into a university, takes classes and passes them all while simultaneously doing the 52 week each year sports training thing.

Speaking of which: