Making a murderer 2

[krazykats]

I think they are absolutely reaching for anything to disprove Avery as opposed to just actually believing the ex or Bobby did it.

That said when they came across the calendar for the day to day activity it was odd that she didn’t have time to run home and that calendar was at her house when the police found it

 

[jtrue28]

I understand she lived with that one dude. But wouldn't it be protocol to close off her residence until all samples were gathered. Tell her friend and ex-boyfriend to GTFO for a while. Those two being at the house and then 7 days later they miraculously find a key at Avery's house...okay. I'm not saying Avery didn't do it, but there is definitely reasonable doubt.

 

[krazykats]

I think Zellner was spot on to the fact that whoever did it benfitted from the police and Kratz corruption that was obviously coordinated to get them out of the lawsuit. Weighty and Colburn were the officers then IIRC and I guarantee they heard “this lawsuit is your f’g fault here is your chance to make it right” at least once and by gawd they did what they had to.

I don’t think the ex was involved in planting the car or the key, but I do think he was a pawn in that the police coordinated that search and let him know what they were thinking and where the car could possibly be.

Unless Bobby, Scott and the Ex were all paid off they were all working against Avery in a way that made no sense if one or the other actually killed her.

 

[jtrue28]

Was there ever anything mentioned where the ex, and her current living partner had any interactions with Avery? Did they hate the guy or something? Did they even know him?

 

[krazykats]

Not that I remember in the first documentary, but clearly Scott Tadych hated the man to blow up on him like he did.

There is no telling if the Ex was happy about his girlfriend riding out to the salvage yard all the time and it being known Avery had a thing for her as was explained in the first documentary.

 

[jtrue28]

Still can't believe she's doing this pro bono. Although, she knows the exposure from Netflix will help pay the bills.

No bone evidence on the bullet. Hmmmmm...

 

[downw/ball-lineD]

Felt like the theory of how the halbach dna was placed on the bullet—-that lacked any of her bone residue—-was pretty amazing/damning. If that is true and can be shown, I can’t imagine how a judge—-not corrupted by the Wisconsin political climate—-could not afford Avery a new trial.

Anyone care to elaborate on the day planner issue?

 

[krazykats]

They can’t go deep enough into that for anyone to explain. If the ex won’t talk then there is no telling how he got that book, but it seems like it ties him to the murder somehow.

 

[CatOfDaVille]

This is why, whether guilty or innocent, you never speak to cops without an attorney present. It is amazing how many innocent people are convicted because the cops pressure them into a confession like Dassey or twist their words into something that could be construed as a confession.

Confession Tapes is another good Netflix doc with 7 or 8 different episodes each on a separate story of innocent people confessing to crimes they didn't commit...supposedly. It's not bad.

Gotta get a lawyer no matter what. Don't say a damn word until the lawyer gets there.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

I think they are absolutely reaching for anything to disprove Avery as opposed to just actually believing the ex or Bobby did it.

That said when they came across the calendar for the day to day activity it was odd that she didn’t have time to run home and that calendar was at her house when the police found it

To me, that was a very big reveal there. How did it get back to her house? Who took it there? I think the boyfriend had some part in this.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Felt like the theory of how the halbach dna was placed on the bullet—-that lacked any of her bone residue—-was pretty amazing/damning. If that is true and can be shown, I can’t imagine how a judge—-not corrupted by the Wisconsin political climate—-could not afford Avery a new trial.

Anyone care to elaborate on the day planner issue?

Based on phone records. She received a call to somewhere to take photos that was in between set appts she alread had.
She wrote it on her planner but there was not enough time because of the distance between appts to go back home where the planner was found and for her to be at Avery residence during the timeframe Avery said she was there.

 

[krazykats]

Yes but that appt was attended to before the Avery appt. she could have still went home but the timeframe isn’t likely.

I’d venture to guess that once the murder was known the police held it against people to remove them as obvious suspects to “help”.

I think it was the Ex that moved the car to the salvage yard, and I also thought it was weird they chose not to check the depre hiding the car for DNA since Avery was bleeding and sweating like a maniac!

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Yes but that appt was attended to before the Avery appt. she could have still went home but the timeframe isn’t likely.

I’d venture to guess that once the murder was known the police held it against people to remove them as obvious suspects to “help”.

I think it was the Ex that moved the car to the salvage yard, and I also thought it was weird they chose not to check the depre hiding the car for DNA since Avery was bleeding and sweating like a maniac!

I can't remember the whole scene, but Zellner she she took or made two calls during the time frame that would make it near impossible to travel those distances and be able to make it to the Avery residence in that timeframe. She had a map up showing the distances.

 

[krazykats]

The call was for a meet after Avery, and still make it to her moms(I think), but the issue was it was all the way across town and didn’t leave enough time to stop by her house(which is how it was explained happened) so in theory the planner should have still been with her.

What I’m saying is there is no clear 100% sure way to tell that or how he came up with it at her residence. Maybe she did find a way to stop by and just maybe the cops didn’t think anything of it like the headlight and left it in the car.

I don’t think the planner was found in the original search of her residence, but I could be wrong.

 

[jtrue28]

Even more suspicious that Ryan was living in her house after the murder. You can't convince me that Ryan, Bobby and Scott don't know more than they're letting on.

So is Brendan's chance to get out now completely gone, or if Zellner can get Avery out, does that exonerate Brendan too?

 

[krazykats]

Once that case went to Chicago I thought that was best case for him because of the lawsuit.

I’m not exactly sure how anyone can watch that and think he wasn’t coerced into his statement. The kid was fed lines and guessing what they wanted to hear.

Ever talk to an 8 year old about **** they didn’t actually do? Man that story goes way into left field to the point I just give up and am convinced my kids are jackasses.

Anyway, I think if either get off then the other case falls apart but with them being tried separately that does not mean the other will be set free.

Not 100% sure there though.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

My wife uses those tactics on our girls and it is funny how often they will tell on themselves for stuff we didn't even know they had done. She will say "Is there something you need to tell me about what happened at school" not having any idea something happened but they assume she already knows and they will just spill the beans about something that happened. She probably needs to be a police interrogator for Manitowoc County too. :joy::joy:

 

[etowncatfan]

My Problem with the Dassey confession is that he confessed to an action that didn't happen. There is no evidence that he is connected to the Murder. So how can you be put in jail for lying?? His story was they tied her to the bed and slit her throat. It was proved there was no blood in the trailer. So he was lying. and they sent him to Prison.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

My Problem with the Dassey confession is that he confessed to an action that didn't happen. There is no evidence that he is connected to the Murder. So how can you be put in jail for lying?? His story was they tied her to the bed and slit her throat. It was proved there was no blood in the trailer. So he was lying. and they sent him to Prison.

I agree with you. Nothing links him to the crime but his confession of something that couldn't be proven even happened. As a matter of fact most of what he confessed to has been disproven by Zellner.

 

[krazykats]

Zellner isn’t on his case though.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

Zellner isn’t on his case though.

Yeah I know but I am just saying he was convicted on a confession that none of the evidence supports. That is crazy to think he can't get a retrial.

 

[krazykats]

Right and it’s because his hearings aren’t based on the case as much as it is why the courts should hear it.

Completely different aspects which is what Zellner was saying and touched on as to how those attorneys are making mistakes in the presentaion.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Once that case went to Chicago I thought that was best case for him because of the lawsuit.

I’m not exactly sure how anyone can watch that and think he wasn’t coerced into his statement. The kid was fed lines and guessing what they wanted to hear.

Ever talk to an 8 year old about **** they didn’t actually do? Man that story goes way into left field to the point I just give up and am convinced my kids are jackasses.

Anyway, I think if either get off then the other case falls apart but with them being tried separately that does not mean the other will be set free.

Not 100% sure there though.

Those investigators knew exactly who they were talking and what his issues were. Just shameful what they did to that kid. I hope they pay for what they did.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

The system failed this kid and Avery imo. A police department that is being sued by Avery for his wrongful imprisonment for 18 years is allowed to be on his property during this investigation and happen to be there when the key is found. Good grief, They are totally corrupt.

 

[jtrue28]

But the coroner wasn’t allowed to be there. Go figure.

 

[CatOfDaVille]

So is Brendan's chance to get out now completely gone, or if Zellner can get Avery out, does that exonerate Brendan too?

I wondered this myself.

I know that SCOTUS refusing to hear his case means he's out of appeals on the original conviction, but I wonder if new evidence, like say that she wasn't killed on the Avery property, would get him a retrial or a hearing.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

But the coroner wasn’t allowed to be there. Go figure.

Exactly

 

[ukalumni00]

Just got done watching Season 2. Know there are always two sides to the story but man Zellner completely shreds the State's case to pieces.

If her theory is correct that Bobby, Scott, the boyfriend etc. were involved, what is the most confusing is how the police got involved with them to cover it all up. How would they have known each other to a level where they would join forces to frame Avery? Why would his own family help frame him? If they did not do it how could the police kill an innocent women and dismember her the way they did? $38M lawsuit is a lot of money if he had won, but law enforcement doing that to someone is beyond sick stuff.

Craziest case to try and pick apart. One thing is for sure, Zellner has a 6th Sense when it comes to these things. How she is able to pick apart a case and reconstruct it the way she does is pretty incredible.

The only way Dassey ever sees freedom is if the science she has collected somehow gets Avery an appeal, but the State of WI is going to fight them till the end because if they are proven to be wrong again not only will they lose a fortune from lawsuits but a lot of folks in power/law enforcement will go down as well. Politics are its greatest due to how well known the case is to the public.

My guess is their only chance is if Avery's case gets heard by the SCOTUS, but that happening is slim to none. Both will very likely die in prison unless Dassey makes it until his release date.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

I am not convinced the police had anything to do with her murder as much as they planted her car and evidence at the Avery's to frame him. It may be a coincidence that the Dassey's had committed the actual crime more so than they worked with the cops to frame Avery.

 

[Joneslab]

Surprisingly I loved Season 2 as much as Season 1. As somebody else said, I definitely have more reasonable doubt after S2.

Only thing I didn't go along with was Zellner's reenactment of how Bobby Dassey might have done it. That he would have gotten in his vehicle, followed her off the property, and then flagged her down...that's a lot of moving parts. I tend to think whoever killed her did it on the property.

How anyone could watch the confession Brendan Dassey gave and not come away with the fact that it was coerced is incredibly baffling. And frustrating. It's kind of the definition of coercion. The scenes of the 7th Circuit hearings will get your blood boiling.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

The one male judge had his mind made up that the confession was not coerced.

 

[Joneslab]

The one male judge had his mind made up that the confession was not coerced.

Yes. Infuriating.

To me Season 2 dovetailed right into Season 3 of Serial. There's so much about our justice system that's just messed up.

 

[ukalumni00]

If there is anything anyone should learn from this whole thing is to NEVER interview with the police without an attorney present. Do not care how innocent you are, what you say can and WILL be held against you in the court of law.

 

[WonderBraa]

Surprisingly I loved Season 2 as much as Season 1. As somebody else said, I definitely have more reasonable doubt after S2.

Only thing I didn't go along with was Zellner's reenactment of how Bobby Dassey might have done it. That he would have gotten in his vehicle, followed her off the property, and then flagged her down...that's a lot of moving parts. I tend to think whoever killed her did it on the property.

How anyone could watch the confession Brendan Dassey gave and not come away with the fact that it was coerced is incredibly baffling. And frustrating. It's kind of the definition of coercion. The scenes of the 7th Circuit hearings will get your blood boiling.

Her driving point with that was the fact that Steven left Teresa and went inside for like 15-30 seconds. On his way in he noticed Bobby was home. After the 15-30 seconds were up and Steven stepped back outside, Bobby was gone.

The theory is plausible based on the small time frame. And I think she mentioned that after waving Teresa down, Bobby probably mentioned "Hustle Shots" to get her back on or near the property. Plus there was the alleged temporary grave that was off Kuff Road. But I agree that it is assuming a lot of things.

My question is this: Does she think all that happens AND the stuff with the ex having the journal happens as well? Seems like two things that go against each other.

Also, regarding her theory with the ex and the cops. Why would the cops be calling him 20-something times while he is moving her car? Why were they working together?

 

[WonderBraa]

Just got done watching Season 2. Know there are always two sides to the story but man Zellner completely shreds the State's case to pieces.

If her theory is correct that Bobby, Scott, the boyfriend etc. were involved, what is the most confusing is how the police got involved with them to cover it all up. How would they have known each other to a level where they would join forces to frame Avery? Why would his own family help frame him? If they did not do it how could the police kill an innocent women and dismember her the way they did? $38M lawsuit is a lot of money if he had won, but law enforcement doing that to someone is beyond sick stuff.

Craziest case to try and pick apart. One thing is for sure, Zellner has a 6th Sense when it comes to these things. How she is able to pick apart a case and reconstruct it the way she does is pretty incredible.

The only way Dassey ever sees freedom is if the science she has collected somehow gets Avery an appeal, but the State of WI is going to fight them till the end because if they are proven to be wrong again not only will they lose a fortune from lawsuits but a lot of folks in power/law enforcement will go down as well. Politics are its greatest due to how well known the case is to the public.

My guess is their only chance is if Avery's case gets heard by the SCOTUS, but that happening is slim to none. Both will very likely die in prison unless Dassey makes it until his release date.

I keep going back to the money as to why he isnt getting out. Wouldnt they owe him some crazy amount on top of the 36 million he was already owed?

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

I keep going back to the money as to why he isnt getting out. Wouldnt they owe him some crazy amount on top of the 36 million he was already owed?

If she could prove they framed him on top of the wrongful conviction he would own Manitowoc County.

 

[jtrue28]

I thought they settled. He got something like $500,000. All of that went to his legal dream team that got him sent to prison for life.

 

[WonderBraa]

I thought they settled. He got something like $500,000. All of that went to his legal dream team that got him sent to prison for life.

Maybe you’re right. But I thought he was owed $36 million.....and that could be the reason he is never released (which is stupid).

 

[jtrue28]

"Avery filed a civil lawsuit against Manitowoc County, its former sheriff, Thomas Kocourek, and its former district attorney, Denis Vogel, seeking to recover $36 million in damages stemming from his wrongful conviction. The suit was settled in February 2006 for $400,000 following his murder indictment."

 

[WonderBraa]

"Avery filed a civil lawsuit against Manitowoc County, its former sheriff, Thomas Kocourek, and its former district attorney, Denis Vogel, seeking to recover $36 million in damages stemming from his wrongful conviction. The suit was settled in February 2006 for $400,000 following his murder indictment."

Good find. But I think that amount is due to the fact he was facing murder charges. Murder took place in 2005 and he settled in 2006. Take away the Halbach murder and I bet the state ends up having to pay him millions. I dont know the facts behind it but I cant see him settling for 400k just because that's the best he is going to get. The money was one of the states/county's alleged motives.