Making a Murderer

[anthonys735]

^Which is why I'm not taking his word in that People piece. Regardless of the case, he's a sack of ****.

My whole thing, even if it's slanted to Avery/Dassey and leaving some tidbits out, we all seem to agree the best case scenario is the police botched the investigation and ignored instructions to remove the locals. Most likely some evidence was doctored or planted. Worst case the whole thing is a massive conspiracy.


In my opinion, believing that some of the evidence was planted and tampered with, where does that stop?

 

[ukfan03]

I live in Western KY, all I'm saying is that you can't say the guy didn't do it when you get the evidence from q tv show made to make him look innocent.

My opinion, which I've stated is with what we saw that there was enough reasonable doubt.
But my opinion is that he killed her, there are irrefutable facts, her phone activity stopped when she arrived there. He was the last known person to see her. He had the cut on his finger that would lend to the evidence of his blood in her car. Her bones and vehicle we're found on his property.

I feel he was framed. The blood in the vehicle should've been discounted when they found his blood vial was tampered with. Who had access to the vial? Why would someone break the seal and extract blood from the vial? How about the keys to the vehicle? How did the keys have Stevens DNA but not the victim?

If she had a crazy ex or stalker and they knew she would be at the Averys that day it would be easy to kill her and frame Steven. Do you really believe Steven would park the car in his junk yard and burn her body in his back yard if he killed her? C'mon now! I'm not saying the Averys shouldn't had been suspects in the crime but her circle of friends and family should've also been suspects. Also, those people shouldn't had access to Averys property. If nothing else this should've been a mistrial and both Averys set free. The same police department that wrongfully put him in prison the first time should be the reason he is free today. They messed up this investigation.

 

[GLR5555]

Why would he load her body in her car to burn her right behind the garage? No tire tracks led there. This whole case stinks of conspiracy. I'm glad the Wisconsin Innocence Project is now looking into it. Test the blood properly for EDTA and go from there. They only tested 3 of the 6 swabs collected.

 

[Bill Derington]

If the cops were going to frame Avery why would they need to put the bones, camera and clothing in the fire pit right behind his house? Why would they need to sneak her vehicle back in there?
They wouldn't have too, if like some are saying they planted his blood that alone would make him the prime suspect no matter where the car was found. Not only that but he was also the last to see her because the cops had to intercept her as soon as she left.
Now throw in the creepy way he had been hounding her, coincidentally on the day she went missing and always asking specifically for her.
There's just way to many things pointing his direction, and too many things the cops would've had to of pulled off on the fly for me to think anyone but Avery killed her.
Brendan also drew the picture of her shackled with chains on the legs and ropes on the arms, that's odd by itself, but then it just happens Avery bought those very items a couple weeks prior. Then the blood being on the hood latch, like the poster wrote, thats not a place someone would think to put blood in a frame job.

 

[GLR5555]

How could Investigator Colborn give the license number and car make/model 2 days before it was reported missing???

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

he couldn't, unless he already knew it because he had already seen the car because he knew she was going to be killed by the police.

Pretty far out there, but I like the way it pieces together.

One thing that did strike me as odd was how Avery never really seemed raging pissed at being framed for murder, or so he thought. He was kinda just taking it all in stride other than talking about killing himself. I woulda been ****in infuriated at the questioning and when it came time fo rhis final words at the sentencing I would've had to tell the entire police dept and judge to go **** themselves. Dude was all like "I don't know what to say other than I didn't do it." Didn't seem the least bit irate. One thing that makes me wonder if maybe he did do it was how meh he was about the whole thing.

Learned helplessness.

 

[GLR5555]

You could tell his elevator didn't go to the top floor and his nephew's didn't go anywhere. They were too naive and way too easy-going. I guess thats a product of very minimal education and working in a junk yard your whole life.

 

[Bill Derington]

[

How could Investigator Colborn give the license number and car make/model 2 days before it was reported missing???

Well, if that was the case I'd agree with you. He actually made the call the day she was reported missing.

 

[GLR5555]

[


Well, if that was the case I'd agree with you. He actually made the call the day she was reported missing.

Uh, no he didn't. He got blasted on the stand for that. He also screwed up by not reporting the Calumet County's call regarding Gregory Allen for 8 years. He and Lenk definitely planted the key too. They were both non credible. That whole County has rot from the top down.

 

[Bill Derington]

He made the call the day she went missing, it's been brought up several times in this thread.

 

[Midway Cat]

Bill is correct about the call. It was on the day she was reported missing. It was two days before the vehicle was found, though, which is similarly troubling. That might be the confusion.

 

[Midway Cat]

In my mind, if the police planted the blood in the car, and Kratz knows it there is no way in hell he sends it off to check for EDTA's.
Too big of a likelihood it shows up, especially since it did show up in the vial samples.

Kratz was a special prosecutor brought in from a different county. He didn't have the same close ties to the sheriff's department that the regular DA did. He's not a local, and he has no loyalty to any of those guys. Under those circumstances, I seriously doubt that anyone who might be planting evidence would disclose that to him.

Like the defense attorneys said, this didn't have to be some massive conspiracy involving a bunch of people at every level of the justice system. Instead, if evidence was planted, it almost certainly was done by two or three people in the sheriff's department who kept it within their small group.

 

[Bill Derington]

Its only troubling if that call is made before the girl is reported missing. Because he would have no reason to be calling it in. Since its after she's reported missing he's just double checking he's got the correct info.
Again, why if the cops planned all this would they call in her make and license plate? 4 days after you would've had to have abducted and killed her? Thats not even realistic, and definitely not reasonable.

 

[Bill Derington]

Kratz was a special prosecutor brought in from a different county. He didn't have the same close ties to the sheriff's department that the regular DA did. He's not a local, and he has no loyalty to any of those guys. Under those circumstances, I seriously doubt that anyone who might be planting evidence would disclose that to him.

Like the defense attorneys said, this didn't have to be some massive conspiracy involving a bunch of people at every level of the justice system. Instead, if evidence was planted, it almost certainly was done by a two or three people in the sheriff's department who kept it within their small group.

Or.....Avery really killed her, and Brendan was involved.
Everyone is hung up on only Averys DNA being on the set of keys. Brendan said they cleaned the garage with bleach, even his mother said his clothes upon coming home had bleach spots, the test results proved this, wouldn't it seem likely that one of them wipef the keys with bleach which destroys DNA? And then Avery possibly handled them in the days afterward or even had them hidden in house shoes right next to where they were found and they picked up his Dna that way?

 

[Midway Cat]

Its only troubling if that call is made before the girl is reported missing. Because he would have no reason to be calling it in. Since its after she's reported missing he's just double checking he's got the correct info.

Again, why if the cops planned all this would they call in her make and license plate? 4 days after you would've had to have abducted and killed her? Thats not even realistic, and definitely not reasonable.

I disagree.

The call itself leads me to believe that he's looking at the vehicle and reading the license plate while talking to dispatch. Listen to the way he asks about the license plate and then follows up about the description. That's why it's concerning. It sounds as if he's already located the vehicle two days before anyone actually finds it on Avery's property.

I'm sure you'll disagree with my interpretation, but the evidence supports my conclusion just as much as it does your assumption that he was "just double checking [that] he's got the correct info."

Also, I've never said that I think law enforcement killed her, so I'm not sure why you're going there. But if the sheriff's department actually found her vehicle two days after she went missing and two days before the volunteers located it, it doesn't require a huge leap to think that they might move the vehicle to a location on his property. After all, they'd already homed in on Avery by this point, so why not build a better case? "We know he did it anyway, so let's just make sure we get the SOB this time!"

I'm still not sure if I believe that actually happened, but it's not that far fetched, and the phone call makes me extremely skeptical.

 

[Midway Cat]

Or.....Avery really killed her, and Brendan was involved.
Everyone is hung up on only Averys DNA being on the set of keys. Brendan said they cleaned the garage with bleach, even his mother said his clothes upon coming home had bleach spots, the test results proved this, wouldn't it seem likely that one of them wipef the keys with bleach which destroys DNA? And then Avery possibly handled them in the days afterward or even had them hidden in house shoes right next to where they were found and they picked up his Dna that way?

Well, I guess this is where we have to stop talking to each other about it. Your post has nothing to do with my post that you quoted. Just saying, "No, he really did it! Really!" and then talking about evidence that I haven't mentioned isn't very productive and it certainly won't convince anyone.

It was fun while it lasted.

 

[drxman1]

The more we learn about information that was left out of the documentary, I find myself thinking that Brendan's first confession is probably the way it really went down.

He comes across as probably dumb enough to tell the cops everything and think that if he told the truth he'd be back at school by 6th period.

Maybe he did tell Len Kachinsky the whole story, and although unethical, was why he and his investigator we're hell bent on getting him convicted.

 

[Bill Derington]

Well, I guess this is where we have to stop talking to each other about it. Your post has nothing to do with my post that you quoted. Just saying, "No, he really did it! Really!" and then talking about evidence that I haven't mentioned isn't very productive and it certainly won't convince anyone.

It was fun while it lasted.

You took my post the wrong way Gtown, I apologize if it came across badly.

 

[Bill Derington]

When I saw Lenks testimony about the car and plates I felt the same as you. But I thought it was before she had been reported missing, and there was no reason for him to even have that car on his radar.
The defense presented as him reading it, but why would he know it's a 99?
Once it's know it's after the missing date to me the theory of him looking at it is shot, and he's simply verifying he's got the right info.

 

[BBdK]

^ he called in asking her to read a plate, which says to me he was looking at it -- days before it was found in the junkyard.

 

[UKRob 73]

I'm not certain about anything. But the one thing I am certain about, if he did do it, the police planted evidence to strengthen their case.

 

[mdlUK.1]

I'm not certain about anything. But the one thing I am certain about, if he did do it, the police planted evidence to strengthen their case.

I think you nailed it.

 

[Bill Derington]

^ he called in asking her to read a plate, which says to me he was looking at it -- days before it was found in the junkyard.

It's the day a woman was reported missing, what's the first thing they would be looking for, her car. RAV 4's are a fairly common vehicle, verifying he has the right info is not the least bit suspicious.
Now this is after she was reported missing, so you're saying at this point the car or the bones aren't on the junkyard. So now not only would Avery be aware she was missing, and know he was one of the last people to see her, but the police now have to sneak the vehicle and bones on the property without being seen. Does that sound likely

 

[krazykats]

Where was Avery the day she was reported missing and/or the day they searched his place? The timing of him not being around is peculiar?

 

[wildcatadam6]

And also the judge allowed the DNA evidence on the bullet fragment that was contaminated, and therefore should have been designated inconclusive. The bullet fragment that magically ended up under an air compressor in the garage, in which no other blood was found.

and to boot, the tech lady was told to "put her in the garage or trailer"

Disgusting.

Just curious. Lawyers....Avery's two attorneys split $240,000 for what I'm guessing was ~18 months worth of work. I'm assuming something of this scale and publicity and complexity is your only gig if you land it? They truly seemed to be in it for the right reasons, and that's great. But, is there a way to get paid for all this work assuming the $240,000 was all there was upfront? Maybe the parents put up property as collateral on loans?

 

[Bill Derington]

I'm gonna guess as sharp as Averys lawyers were they realized that this case would lead to bigger and better deals. Not saying that's the only reason they took it, but I'm sure that was part of the decision.
Those guys have a blank check after the show.

 

[Bill Derington]

and to boot, the tech lady was told to "put him in the garage or trailer"

Disgusting.

Just curious. Lawyers....Avery's two attorneys split $240,000 for what I'm guessing was ~18 months worth of work. I'm assuming something of this scale and publicity and complexity is your only gig if you land it? They truly seemed to be in it for the right reasons, and that's great. But, is there a way to get paid for all this work assuming the $240,000 was all there was upfront? Maybe the parents put up property as collateral on loans?

I still don't understand why they allowed that evidence after she contaminated it.

 

[BBdK]

Verifying he has the "right" info?

So, he calls some hussy at dispatch randomly to verify information he already has, per you?

No.

 

[Bill Derington]

Verifying he has the "right" info?

So, he calls some hussy at dispatch randomly to verify information he already has, per you?

No.

Yea, it's the day the girl was listed as missing. Her last known location is manitowoc County, he's a deputy, who the hell is he going to verify it with it over the radio?
Do you understand what verification means?

What do you think he was doing? Looking at a car with the dead girl in it, that he's later gonna burn the corpse, sneak into the junkyard with the car that the whole Avery clan lives on, dispose of body RIGHT behind Stevens house, that actually makes more sense than he was simply verifying the recent info of a missing girls vehicle!?!?

 

[anthonys735]

Katz said in the Avery trial he didn't think the bedroom stuff happened. That's pretty important to Dassey. The only physical evidence is bleach on his clothes. Those interrogations were awful. I don't know what involvement he had but I certainly don't know how you can think it went down just like he said. There's almost no physical evidence supporting his forced confession.

 

[BBdK]

Bill Derington is awful.

 

[Bill Derington]

Katz said in the Avery trial he didn't think the bedroom stuff happened. That's pretty important to Dassey. The only physical evidence is bleach on his clothes. Those interrogations were awful. I don't know what involvement he had but I certainly don't know how you can think it went down just like he said. There's almost no physical evidence supporting his forced confession.

There's also the bullet, which whether it should've been allowed doesn't matter on here. It was from his gun, and it had her bone fragments on it.
There's just things Brendan knew that are too out of the ordinary, but were correct, for him to just be making things up. He asked the first night the police came just asking questions if Steven had told them anything or something to that effect. The leg irons and ropes, that's not something a slow 16 year old would come up with on his own, and it was something Steven had just purchased since his GF had been in jail. The numerous and blocked phone calls the day she went missing plus the prior history, the dude had a hard on for her.

 

[Bill Derington]

Bill Derrington is awful.

At least spell my name right ,prick.

How did you manage to get out of the auto salvage business?

 

[krazykats]

Bill your taking suspicious things and using it against Avery just like a lot of people are taking suspicious things and using them to defend Avery. You've admitted you think he is guilty, BUT also they didn't prove it........

Not to call BS on you, but you do understand that not proving it is pretty big in this mans life where he has spent the majority in a cage!

I agree and understand the bullet and the significance, but IIRC what was found was the bullet from a .22 that would not have, most likely, made it threw the body/head of anyone to be left.

I will say a friend that is an attorney and knew of the case told me of a situation that if Avery did it could make since. That Avery could have had the RAV4 in the garage to remove it from sight in case someone was asked they could say it was gone. That would give reason for him to have the body in the back.......I guess if your putting a murder scenario together that ties up some loose ends.

Bill, Dassey never said "did Steven tell you that" he originally said "do you think Steven did it". Huge difference IMO, and he originally said he saw nothing and knew nothing.......however his "confession" based on kiss the girls is and was odd since I don't think he ever read the book(his claim not mine).

I think even though most attorneys would have charged more those attorneys should have defended Dassey too!

 

[UKRob 73]

The bullet wasn't that big of a deal to me. The bullet was found AFTER the police had the rifle in custody. So the police shoot the rifle, collect the slug, rub it on her bones, and then plant it days later in the garage. The bullet and key were the two easiest things to plant, which is why both were found days after the initial search.

 

[TransyCat09]

I think the most important thing to take away from all of this is middle-aged upper Midwestern men love mustaches, gold jewelry, and (presumably) spicy cologne. Haven't met one yet that doesn't look just like the cop that did the sketch of Avery during the rape investigation.

 

[420grover]

I read the first couple of pages in this thread and decided it was something I need to watch. I live in one of the few places where there is no high speed internet access so, no Netflix for me. I brought my laptop to work with me tonight and have the entire season downloading right now. Hopefully, I'll get through it this weekend.

 

[beltieboy_rivals376542]

I'm only halfway through the season but mother of god I want to punch Len and his "investigator" so bad. I think both of them are dumber than Brendan. Brendan is facing life in prison for a crime that he was so obviously coerced into confessing to and there's Len just smiling away, completely oblivious to the idea that he may actually be innocent. Were the interrogation tapes not available to him at the time?? Because any half-wit could see that he was coerced. I suppose that's why he's a public defender... although it wouldn't surprise me if both of those guys were in on the fix. I literally yelled "F*** that guy!" when Len's investigator was forcing Brendan to write down his "confession" and draw those ridiculous pictures.

 

[Violent Cuts]

I'm not certain about anything. But the one thing I am certain about, if he did do it, the police planted evidence to strengthen their case.

Exactly. They knew he did it and after not finding any evidence (or enough to convict him), they planted additional evidence.

 

[wildcatadam6]

I'm really surprised there was not a single juror who voted "not guilty". I remember "unanimous" being the burden on the jury. Assuming that's right, there's no way...

Edit: for Brendan