Man or Zone

kb22stang

All-Conference
Dec 11, 2005
10,902
4,384
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Obviously people on here call for zone quite often, but read this stat and explain to me why we should change:

"No defense has allowed fewer points per possession during the 14-year period in which statistician Ken Pomeroy has been keeping track. "

-DeCoursey (Sporting News)
 

WildmanWilson_rivals

All-Conference
Oct 11, 2010
2,300
1,544
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Because we have had some close games where the opponent was able to drive to the bracket over and over.

When you can't stop the drive you need to adapt and pack it in. Cal is too bullheaded to change his man D. It seems he thinks its a sign of weakness or something. I don't get it. I can't knock Cal on much but this is something that drives me ape poopie crazy.
 

Cats_2010

Heisman
Jan 8, 2010
11,379
19,179
103
The only time anyone calls for zone is when the man to man defense is getting carved up and the other team is scoring at will at the rim. The "no zone ever crowd" because we are 31-0 and why change when we haven't lost will cry the loudest should we lose one of those close games where we fail to ever make any adjustments.

It is not an either or question. If man to man is getting it done, then you stick with it. If it is not you have to at least throw a different look at the opponent. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
 

wcc31

Heisman
Mar 18, 2002
26,798
87,756
98
Nothing demonstrates the idiocy of Rafters like the call to change the best defense of all-time to a zone- especially considering I can only think of one team who has ever won the title playing zone primarily.
 

Chuckinden

All-American
Jun 12, 2006
18,984
5,894
113
Originally posted by ThroughBlue:

Yeah I love people questioning our #1 defense
I don't see anyone questioning our defense, but there are times when a zone could be better.
 

Ugoff

Heisman
May 7, 2009
16,403
21,489
0
I think Cal doesn't play zone because you don't play zone at the next level. For the life of me I can't see why any NBA caliber recruit would go to a place like Syracuse where they play a ton of zone.
 

mbc82584

All-Conference
Jun 11, 2006
3,321
2,204
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Man defense is better, without question, if you have better players and no glaring weaknesses 1-5. If you have good man defense, no one is ever left open. Zone is better if your guys aren't quick or athletic enough to stay between their man and the basket.


Example:

Kyle Wiltjer- Loves zone
WCS - Love man to man
 

RacerX.ksr

Hall of Famer
Sep 17, 2004
132,592
114,515
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Originally posted by WildmanWilson:

Cal is too bullheaded to change his man D.
Cal is too bullheaded to change the number one defense? Why, to make it the number one and two defense? I deleted most of the stupid parts of your post, but I left the important part. Cal is not the one who is bullheaded.
 
Dec 5, 2007
7,298
336
0
Originally posted by kb22stang:
Obviously people on here call for zone quite often, but read this stat and explain to me why we should change:

"No defense has allowed fewer points per possession during the 14-year period in which statistician Ken Pomeroy has been keeping track. "

-DeCoursey (Sporting News)
Well with this team I would not advocate alot of zone but playing zone for a few plays here or there just to mix up the team and give them something to thing about. But in general you don't need a zone to protect a player etc so I say stick to man.
 

uk78_rivals88018

All-American
Feb 6, 2003
12,401
8,783
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It would be nice to see us in a zone when we have allowed lay-up after lay-up in a couple games. But, our zone sucks as does our rebounding when we tried it, so you are not going to see this team in a zone in the big dance.
 

knotonalog

Redshirt
Feb 28, 2015
617
2
0
I agree with most on this thread. I think the zone is weaker defense and used mostly because your team is outsized, out quicked, in foul trouble or tired. In other words it can't be much worse. There are a few exceptions.however.

Occasionally changes in defenses are used to confuse offense, which is effective but not good for your primary defense.. In my opinion the only successes .by zone defenses are because not too many teams use it..Fewer minutes are used by your opponent to practice against it.. jmho.
 

Burly

All-American
Sep 3, 2002
17,027
8,479
113
Originally posted by cats2010:

The only time anyone calls for zone is when the man to man defense is getting carved up and the other team is scoring at will at the rim. The "no zone ever crowd" because we are 31-0 and why change when we haven't lost will cry the loudest should we lose one of those close games where we fail to ever make any adjustments.

It is not an either or question. If man to man is getting it done, then you stick with it. If it is not you have to at least throw a different look at the opponent. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.
Bingo...it is to hard for some to understand. No one is advocating a lot of zone just enough to change momentum and slow down the straight line drives. Coach K used it to beat Lville at Yum. They struggled staying in front of quick guards.
 

Blind Karl Hess

Redshirt
Mar 12, 2006
95,461
11
0
I wanted us to give a zone a look against Georgia when they were killing us with their ball screen action, but then our guys fought through the screens instead of switching off on every one of them and all of a sudden Georgia got one bucket the last 8 minutes or whatever goofy awesome defensive statistic it was.

Ditto Florida. The biggest change in the defense there was going about handling the ball screens. We were able to do that while staying in man.

But generally speaking, I'm largely anti-zone, even a change of pace zone. I just feel like with this team, the one weakness the defense has is that nobody who has worn that jersey in the last 6 seasons has executed a proper fundamental blockout, and with the propensity of our posts to go for blocks (nothing wrong with this), it leaves the back side open for offensive rebounds. And with this team, a zone would just amplify that weakness.
 

Stenchymouse

All-American
Jul 31, 2005
12,653
6,281
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There are times when a team's personnel is more suited for a zone (our 2013 team because KW was too slow and Harrow was too small and weak was better suited for a zone) but the problem is that when a coach isn't "a zone coach" he can't teach it well.

Cal is just not committed enough to the zone to ever use it.

He points out that we get burned every time he tries it but that's because he doesn't teach it well.

The good thing is that Cal recruits players that suit his style of defense.

It will be a little harder next year when Ulis gets caught on switches on screens with big men because Cal likes to switch on every screen.

If you have extremely talented, athletic and big players, man to man is the better defense...PERIOD!
 

throatpoker

All-Conference
Apr 9, 2009
63,107
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It's not like people are calling for it exclusively. Have you ever considered it's possible our defensive numbers wouldn't be even better had we used "situational zone"? Or that in previous seasons it could of been the difference between a win and a loss?
 

Stenchymouse

All-American
Jul 31, 2005
12,653
6,281
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Originally posted by throatpoker:
It's not like people are calling for it exclusively. Have you ever considered it's possible our defensive numbers wouldn't be even better had we used "situational zone"? Or that in previous seasons it could of been the difference between a win and a loss?
We'd have beaten UCONN last year if we could have kept their guards out of the paint.

UofL beat UCONN last year BECAUSE of the zone.

I wish Cal could teach it effectively.
 

throatpoker

All-Conference
Apr 9, 2009
63,107
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Originally posted by stenchymouse:

We'd have beaten UCONN last year if we could have kept their guards out of the paint.

UofL beat UCONN last year BECAUSE of the zone.


This post was edited on 3/10 6:18 PM by throatpoker
 

WildMoon

Heisman
Apr 7, 2009
78,693
11,120
0
i love how people think it's just matter of playing Zone.

If it was so easy to play every type of defense at any given time...every coach would be doing it...

just a food for thought.
 

brewtuscat

Redshirt
May 23, 2002
2,781
1
0
Agree zone is good on an as needed basis.

I will add that a decent zone helps the offense learn to scire against zone.
 

johnnyrockets

Junior
May 7, 2007
3,626
319
0
The reason to play zone is to counter specific offensive sets. LSU and Georgia come immediately to mind as teams that spread the floor, drew the bigs out of the paint, and were successful in getting dribble and backcut penetration to the basket. Zone would mitigate that to a large degree. It would also limit the ability of pick and roll offense to hurt you (obviously at the expense of giving up other offensive looks).

Our man to man is good enough that it usually won't matter, but it's not as simple as "man to man >> zone, end of story." I don't think M2M is by default better, though it is a better defense, all things considered, for our team to play.

The caveat for Cal and our team is the he has these guys for one, maybe two years for the most part. Hard to install a complex UL or Syracuse style zone defense and have them comfortable playing M2M and have them learn the offense in that shortened period of time. M2M with switches on all screens is absolutely the easiest concept to teach the players. Cal knows this.

FWIW, he did go zone for one possession against UGa. We looked lost, then gave up an offensive rebound and putback right in the middle of the paint. Bye, zone.
 

Cats_2010

Heisman
Jan 8, 2010
11,379
19,179
103
Originally posted by WildMoon:
i love how people think it's just matter of playing Zone.

If it was so easy to play every type of defense at any given time...every coach would be doing it...

just a food for thought.
Not many teams play just one style of defense all year long so not sure what you even mean. These players have been playing basketball most of their lives and are familiar with various different styles of defense. I hardly doubt Cal would get a deer in headlights look from his players if he talked with them in practice about a 2-3, 1-2-2, or matchup zone. This is not splitting the atom and not that difficult to understand or implement.

And again I could care less if we ever play zone if we are being effective on the defensive end. But if I watch an opponent get a layup 8 out of 10 possessions, I want to see something done to stop it.
 

Chuckinden

All-American
Jun 12, 2006
18,984
5,894
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Originally posted by WildMoon:
i love how people think it's just matter of playing Zone.

If it was so easy to play every type of defense at any given time...every coach would be doing it...

just a food for thought.
Not Cal. He doesn't like and he is in charge.
 

Big_Blue79

All-Conference
Apr 2, 2004
52,487
2,147
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Originally posted by Chuckinden:

Originally posted by ThroughBlue:

Yeah I love people questioning our #1 defense
I don't see anyone questioning our defense, but there are times when a zone could be better.
A well-executed zone, yes. But what if that's not the case? Syracuse spends a lot of time practicing the zone. I imagine Pitino spends a lot of time practicing the various zone defenses UL uses (he certainly spends little enough time practicing offense!). There are other adjustments, while staying in man to man, that can help stop getting beat at the rim. If a team does not practice zone, then it's possible (if not likely) that an adjustment within the man to man is better than going zone even though zone is, in principle, superior for the situation. Practice time (and let's face it - with Cal the regular season games are often practice) is a scarce and valuable commodity. On the whole, it might not be the best use of that time to incorporate zone because time spent on it comes at a cost. Same argument for why Cal doesn't have his players shoot FTs in practice - the payout is not worth the price. I don't know that is the case, but it's far more complicated than just identifying the best type of defense for the situation.
 

Big_Blue79

All-Conference
Apr 2, 2004
52,487
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Originally posted by WildMoon:
i love how people think it's just matter of playing Zone.

If it was so easy to play every type of defense at any given time...every coach would be doing it...

just a food for thought.
This.

Edit: there was a HS to NBA player a while back that said he'd never played zone before having to learn it in the NBA. I thought it was Tracy McGrady, but since he also whined about zone defenses I couldn't sift through all the hits on that to find what's out there on what he knew. Anyway, the point is that many players have little, if any, familiarity with the zone. You don't just do it, you have to practice it. Yeah, it's not rocket science, but it requires practice and familiarity to be good at it.
This post was edited on 3/10 7:25 PM by Big_Blue79
 

ala_kat2

All-American
Jan 4, 2003
10,751
9,957
103
mbc posted: ". Zone is better if your guys aren't quick or athletic enough to stay between their man and the basket.". That basically applies to the Harrisons and Dakari. When teams are repeatedly gashing our Man-D, an adjustment is needed. It happeneded several times this year and resulted in a couple of closer games than called for. One loss in the NC2A tourney and you're done.
 

fatguy87

All-American
Oct 8, 2004
13,764
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Originally posted by stenchymouse:

We'd have beaten UCONN last year if we could have kept their guards out of the paint.

We'd have beaten UConn if we played a lick of offense. Our offense was much, much worse than our defense in the championship game.
 

WildmanWilson_rivals

All-Conference
Oct 11, 2010
2,300
1,544
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Originally posted by ymmot31:
Originally posted by WildmanWilson:

Cal is too bullheaded to change his man D.
Cal is too bullheaded to change the number one defense? Why, to make it the number one and two defense? I deleted most of the stupid parts of your post, but I left the important part. Cal is not the one who is bullheaded.
I didn't say change the number one defense. What he is doing works 90% + of the time. There are time however that the team is getting burned. They almost got beat a few times and were just extremely lucky they didn't. The question is...can something else be better in a certain situations? The obviuos answer by anyone that know basketball is yes.

IF and its a big IF UK gets beat it will be by a team getting to the rim untouched and they do not adjust. We've seen it happen before so don't act like it can't happen,
 

Cats192

Heisman
Apr 22, 2011
14,638
17,057
93
I feel like the advocates of playing zone think you just put guys in a 2-3 and it magically works. You've got to work on playing it. It takes practice. Syracuse is very effective at it most years because it's what they work on.

To just say oh we're getting beat, let's throw a zone at them...?

I think you'd rather play man even when you're getting beat off the dribble with this team. They've still got to score over the trees.

As others have said--when you're the superior team athletically, you play man.