McDonald's minimum wage fallout

gamecockcat

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Saw an article this morning about some McDonald's are upfitting the counter area for kiosks so that customers basically do all the ordering and paying themselves, i.e., fewer jobs for unskilled laborers. Owner quoted in article said it was a direct result of $15/hour minimum wage talk.

Wow, Economics 101 really does work! Evidently, the 'think tank' geniuses didn't believe it. It's either cut jobs or your Big Mac combo costs $10.75. Either way, somebody loses (not weight, of course).

Not really a political post as I basically distrust both sides to do the right thing for the country. Just pointing out the lunacy of some folks who believe that human nature and the rules of economics, finance, physics, biology, etc. will change if we just want them to badly enough or because it's 'fair'.
 

gamecockcat

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i guess somebody made Kroger pay their cashiers $15/hr about a decade ago.

Surprised it took fast food this long to catch up.

Actually, yes, somebody did - the union. I know when I was in HS and college, it was hard as hell to get a job at Kroger because they didn't hire nearly as many people as Foodtown, Winn Dixie, etc., i.e., the non-union shops. Again, basic Economics. Artificially high wages results either in 1) higher prices and/or 2) fewer jobs. Not that difficult. For the ones who still work at McDonalds at $15/hour - they got a big raise. For all the ones who will not be hired because of artificially high minimum wage, they get bupkes.
 
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Actually, yes, somebody did - the union. I know when I was in HS and college, it was hard as hell to get a job at Kroger because they didn't hire nearly as many people as Foodtown, Winn Dixie, etc., i.e., the non-union shops. Again, basic Economics. Artificially high wages results either in 1) higher prices and/or 2) fewer jobs. Not that difficult. For the ones who still work at McDonalds at $15/hour - they got a big raise. For all the ones who will not be hired because of artificially high minimum wage, they get bupkes.
<-- Worked at Kroger in college
<-- Didn't have any trouble getting hours at Kroger
<-- Didn't know Kroger workers were making $15/hr....

I also didn't know self-checkout lanes were restricted to unionized stores. Somebody should tell Walmart.
 

UKserialkiller

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At least working at Kroger will at least garner you some respect. Working at McDonalds assures you of nothing but depression.
 
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jtrue28

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<-- Worked at Kroger in college
<-- Didn't have any trouble getting hours at Kroger
<-- Didn't know Kroger workers were making $15/hr....

I also didn't know self-checkout lanes were restricted to unionized stores. Somebody should tell Walmart.

[laughing]

You think Wal-Mart(s) shoppers could figure it out? The security sirens would be going off non-stop.
 

TriangleUKCat

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Sheetz down this way has had that setup for years but not at a high rate of volume like McDonald's receives. Gas station, though.
 

starchief

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I'm always amused that increasing the minimum wage, no matter what amount, "raises prices" but the salaries of the highly paid (such as many on here) has nothing to do with the price of your product. Sheesh.
 

gamecockcat

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I'm always amused that increasing the minimum wage, no matter what amount, "raises prices" but the salaries of the highly paid (such as many on here) has nothing to do with the price of your product. Sheesh.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I'm certainly not. As I said in the OP, McDonalds is NOT raising prices. They are reducing labor headcount to reduce or maintain their total labor cost. Many people mistakenly believe that the government can raise the minimum wage without ANY consequences and that's demonstrably false, which is why I posted in the first place.

In many industries like fast food, the cost of labor is a huge percentage of total business expenses. Doubling the cost of minimum wage workers at a McDonalds may increase total expenses from 30% of revenue to 50% of revenue if headcount and hours worked remained constant. Not so in many other industries. Doubling the salary of middle management at Bank America might increase total expenses from 18% to 20%. A CEO at Bank America, for instance, makes less in salary than the rent on one of their office buildings so his salary doesn't affect the 'price' of their goods and services very much (it does some, of course).

Of course, highly paid folks are generally very educated, highly skilled and/or not very easily replaced. For the most part, the MARKET sets their wage rate. For those who are subject to minimum wage, the GOVERNMENT has set their wage rate. When the government sets the minimum wage rate artificially high, i.e., higher than what the market would dictate, Economics 101 says for profits to remain level, either prices must increase or the number of persons employed must decrease (to maintain the same total cost of labor). If the government mandates that businesses like McDonalds must pay their employees a minimum of $15/hour, McDonalds will still want and strive to make the same or more profit. Only two ways to do that given the same market share: raise prices, reduce headcount.

In other industries, such as direct personal services like law, if the government made a law that said all attorneys must be paid at least $500/hour, don't you think the cost of legal services would increase? Or consumers would find other methods of conducting their affairs without using attorneys except when completely necessary? If consumers did so, guess what? Either attorneys would raise their fees to make up for the reduced demand for their services (due to higher costs) or there would be a lot fewer attorneys running around because most of them couldn't make a living (reduced supply). Or both. Raising the minimum wage for jobs that require little to no education, specialized training or knowledge results in exactly the same thing.
 

ukalumni00

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Buddy of mine owns a small franchised business. He said if they raise the minimum wage he already has a plan to cut 4 jobs and tell the others to work harder for the $15 an hour. He also has a plan to sell the business if he has to.
 

We-Todd-Did

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Check the average pay at Costco and Aldi's. Both are models of efficiency and most, if not all, jobs are over $15 an hour. The issue is efficient use of resources and if you're claiming minimum wage is too high, you probably suck at employment.
 

starchief

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A $15 hr federal minimum wage is just a number made up to scare people - as if $15 hr or $7.50 hr are the only two options. I'll bet the $15 hr federal minimum wage will not arrive in the next 15 years. There are lots of doable numbers between those two numbers. I don't think $10 hr is outrageous.
It amazes me that decent people are perfectly willing to see a class of people exploited - yes, exploited - by wishing them a wage that no one could live on just to keep the price of a hamburger.down.

McDonalds owners are really having it tough with the high wages they have to pay their employees. Profit margins are so tight that that only 88% of them have more than one store (look it up).
 

Johns721

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The front line people that the kiosk was supposed to replace will quickly be re-hired as "customer experience coordinators" to help the morons who can't figure out how to use the kiosk place their orders. A significant percentage of the people out there in the wild can't figure out how to use the self-scan lanes at WalMart or Kroger without help, so the average McD's customer doesn't stand a chance. Zero net job loss.
 

Lexie's Dad

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^News flash - if minimum wage is too low, the demand for labor will push wages high enough that minimum wage becomes irrelevant.

News flash 2.0 - the vast, vast, vast, vast (to the nth power) majority of minimum wage workers are NOT primary wage earners, but secondary wage earners. They tend to be mothers who work while kids are in school, teens, etc.

More importantly - I'm stoked for kiosks and love self checkout. Why?
They're programmed to always say thank you.
They always give proper change.
I don't have to interrupt them while they flirt with the other kiosks or touch with their phones. They don't call me "hon".
Kiosks listen and don't fail to write my order down properly.

Kiosks FTW!
 
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buster3.0

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A $15 hr federal minimum wage is just a number made up to scare people - as if $15 hr or $7.50 hr are the only two options. I'll bet the $15 hr federal minimum wage will not arrive in the next 15 years. There are lots of doable numbers between those two numbers. I don't think $10 hr is outrageous.
It amazes me that decent people are perfectly willing to see a class of people exploited - yes, exploited - by wishing them a wage that no one could live on just to keep the price of a hamburger.down.

McDonalds owners are really having it tough with the high wages they have to pay their employees. Profit margins are so tight that that only 88% of them have more than one store (look it up).

The minimum wage should never be equal across the country. It should be tied to cost of living. $15 an hour sure as hell goes a lot farther in Mayfield, Ky than in San Francisco.
 
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Kiosks will suck. How many times have you been waiting in line at a self checkout only to have the people using them not have a clue what to do? Then they have to get the employee to come over and punch in their password and fix the issue. How about when you go to the Redbox and you have to wait for 10 minutes for the person ahead of you to try and figure out what they want to watch? They could have easily used the app or computer to reserve the movies they want in advance and be in and out in like 2 minutes.

I think this will be a disaster. When I was coming home from a Florida trip a few months ago, there was a McDonald's restaurant in Warner Robins that had a few kiosks. Not a single person would touch them. The only way I think they would work well is if you can do like Redbox and put your order into it in advance with an app and when you get there you just slide your card and the order goes to the workers making your food then.
 

Comebakatz3

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First off, it's asinine to be amused at people losing their jobs. Secondly, it is somewhat scary that this is happening. If you really think about it there are very few jobs in this world that couldn't be done by a machine of some sort. So, even our high and mighty jobs are not really safe from being on the chopping block due to technology that is more efficient or cost effective. Right now, most the jobs that are being lost are those that we don't really care too much about like taxi drivers and fast food workers, but at some point they may very well be taking some of our jobs.

In fact, if you look at the legal industry, many of the jobs are gone because of the efficiency of the internet. 25 years ago the big time law firms often hired 50-100 new law school graduates every year. Those new graduates were sent to the libraries to do research and write briefs and memos. Now, those big law firms are hiring 2-3 attorneys to do the same thing as the 50 because they can now quickly do the research through Lexis Nexis (or Westlaw or similar) rather than having to flip through a ton of books. Not to mention the paperwork is faster simply because computers and their accessories are much faster. Also, legal websites like legalzoom (which you should never use) have also taken some jobs away because people are using this as an alternative to hiring a lawyer.

So many people are laughing about these 'silly little minimum wage workers' wanting more money, and their demands made them lose their jobs to machines, but I fail to see any humor in it.
 

Saguaro Cat

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I go in a mcdonalds, there is one person working the counter, ten in the back. They're not going to eliminate everyone from working the register anyway. Even at wal Mart or Kroger, theres one person watching over the self checkout. In other words, big bunch of bull ****.
 

Saguaro Cat

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Buddy of mine owns a small franchised business. He said if they raise the minimum wage he already has a plan to cut 4 jobs and tell the others to work harder for the $15 an hour. He also has a plan to sell the business if he has to.
A buddy of mine owns two small franchise businesses. If they raise the minimum wage, more people will buy stuff at his store. He has plans to hire 5 people to keep up with demand. And he has plans to start two more places from the ground up after that.
 

CatDaddy4daWin

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First off, it's asinine to be amused at people losing their jobs. Secondly, it is somewhat scary that this is happening. If you really think about it there are very few jobs in this world that couldn't be done by a machine of some sort. So, even our high and mighty jobs are not really safe from being on the chopping block due to technology that is more efficient or cost effective. Right now, most the jobs that are being lost are those that we don't really care too much about like taxi drivers and fast food workers, but at some point they may very well be taking some of our jobs.

In fact, if you look at the legal industry, many of the jobs are gone because of the efficiency of the internet. 25 years ago the big time law firms often hired 50-100 new law school graduates every year. Those new graduates were sent to the libraries to do research and write briefs and memos. Now, those big law firms are hiring 2-3 attorneys to do the same thing as the 50 because they can now quickly do the research through Lexis Nexis (or Westlaw or similar) rather than having to flip through a ton of books. Not to mention the paperwork is faster simply because computers and their accessories are much faster. Also, legal websites like legalzoom (which you should never use) have also taken some jobs away because people are using this as an alternative to hiring a lawyer.

So many people are laughing about these 'silly little minimum wage workers' wanting more money, and their demands made them lose their jobs to machines, but I fail to see any humor in it.
Yeah, this is just the start. Entire industries will be disrupted and the efficiencies will allow companies to do with 1 person what it took 10 people to do. Transportation jobs will be gone at some point, along with most retail, fast food, restaurant, bars, etc. Honestly nothing is safe from the age of robots and AIs that is coming. Places like Amazon have an army of robots that help get their packages out, flying all over the warehouse. The future for our kids and grandkids is pretty scary economically.
 

warrior-cat

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Kiosks will suck. How many times have you been waiting in line at a self checkout only to have the people using them not have a clue what to do? Then they have to get the employee to come over and punch in their password and fix the issue. How about when you go to the Redbox and you have to wait for 10 minutes for the person ahead of you to try and figure out what they want to watch? They could have easily used the app or computer to reserve the movies they want in advance and be in and out in like 2 minutes.

I think this will be a disaster. When I was coming home from a Florida trip a few months ago, there was a McDonald's restaurant in Warner Robins that had a few kiosks. Not a single person would touch them. The only way I think they would work well is if you can do like Redbox and put your order into it in advance with an app and when you get there you just slide your card and the order goes to the workers making your food then.
I don't know, I like the Kiosk and me and my wife use them all of the time when not having much in the basket. They are quicker and more convenient. However, you are right about some people not knowing how to use them being a problem. But, if they have enough of them you simply go to the next one. People will either learn or go to the register where they have a cashier there. Hopefully they will do that like they do at other stores.
 
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warrior-cat

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Yeah, this is just the start. Entire industries will be disrupted and the efficiencies will allow companies to do with 1 person what it took 10 people to do. Transportation jobs will be gone at some point, along with most retail, fast food, restaurant, bars, etc. Honestly nothing is safe from the age of robots and AIs that is coming. Places like Amazon have an army of robots that help get their packages out, flying all over the warehouse. The future for our kids and grandkids is pretty scary economically.
How do you stop it? When the bottom line is to make money and you talk about raising the minimum wage to $15.00 an hour, companies will either leave this country (which they are doing more for corporate taxes right now) or modernize with machinery. Our leaders need to consider what the long term effects will be and not the short term effect of getting elected or re-elected.
 

buckethead1978

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Kiosk ordering was likely in development way before the $15 minimum wage.

Face it, most of your jobs will be done by robots or machines in the future.
 
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80 Proof

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A $15 hr federal minimum wage is just a number made up to scare people - as if $15 hr or $7.50 hr are the only two options. I'll bet the $15 hr federal minimum wage will not arrive in the next 15 years. There are lots of doable numbers between those two numbers. I don't think $10 hr is outrageous.
It amazes me that decent people are perfectly willing to see a class of people exploited - yes, exploited - by wishing them a wage that no one could live on just to keep the price of a hamburger.down.

McDonalds owners are really having it tough with the high wages they have to pay their employees. Profit margins are so tight that that only 88% of them have more than one store (look it up).

The majority of people I see working at McDonalds are high school or college students. The older employees are typically managers, who probably get paid closer to $15 an hour.

Minimum wage jobs aren't meant to support a family on. They are for part timers, new employees to the work force, second jobs, and temporary solutions.

There is a major shortage of workers in the construction industry right now. If people weren't afraid of manual labor, they could be out getting jobs above $10 all day long.
 

CatDaddy4daWin

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Kiosk ordering was likely in development way before the $15 minimum wage.

Face it, most of your jobs will be done by robots or machines in the future.
yes, it has been in the works for some time. They've developed burger making machines that can produce a ridiculous amount of burgers per hour, all custom made.

Instead of kiosks app ordering would be the way to go. You could use Apple Pay or Google Wallet and order and pay within the app then just pick it up.

No industry is safe. Even creative work, which many thought would be protected, is going to suffer. There are AIs out there that can build a website based on just a few variables. Algorithms have created millions of articles across the web, you've probably read one and not known the difference.
 
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mashburned

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This stuff terrifies me.

Can't wait to see how society suffers, though. Will be interesting.