Mike Leach AP PAC 12 COyT

[bthaunert]

The difference between Stoops and Leach is Leach has proven he can do it. The fanbase would have that to fall back on. He has experience and even though he was losing games, he had control over his team and his teams looked prepared for the most part (I've watched quite a few WSU games since Leach has been there). With how unprepared this team and staff looks, I am not sure Stoops will be able to pull it together. I am hoping for the best but UK is not a job where you learn on the fly and it's showing.

In regard to the "natty", in 2008 tech was 10-0, ranked #2 in the nation and had beaten #1 Texas and #8 Okie St in back to back games. They were most definitely on the cusp of being in the championship game had they not lost to Oklahoma. Yes, they indeed lost to Arkansas in a let down bowl game. But if you thought you were about to play for a natty and end up with Nutt in a bowl game, I can see how they would be hugely disappointed.

By the way, if you think 47-34 is a "thumping" then you don't watch a lot of football.

Couple thoughts:

1. Leach has had major clock management issues at Wazoo during his tenure. He 100% cost them a bowl game win a couple years ago in the New Mexico Bowl. He takes a knee during that final series and they win the game. There are a lot of questions around that aspect of his coaching.

2. In 2008, they got destroyed by 44 points to Oklahoma as the #2 team in the nation. A great season, but if if you think getting destroyed by 44 and then getting beat in your bowl game is on the cusp of a National Championship, I will disagree with that.

Like you, I question if Stoops is the guy. I hope he is, I really do. We will never know if Leach would have panned out here. There was a reason why a number of schools passed on leach when he was out of a job for 2 years. I know we have to take those chances when hiring a coach, but all AD's were staying away from him for a couple of years.

 

[jauk11]

You think Stoops should get 7-8 years before you can decide on if he's the right coach or not for this program? I would take Mike tomorrow.

You must have gone to UL, 3 plus 3 or 4 equals 6-7, not 7-8. Now some think Brohm is the next Bear (Trinity grad, UL grad, BP disciple, why would he take the job, first loss fans would claim he was trying to lose) and he said it would take 6 years. a bit more than 3 or 4 don't you think? Where is our talent level now compared to when Stoops took over?

How long until we don't have to pay Stoops for not coaching, remember our DC, Brown? I think UK is going to improve a lot, lots of holes being filled and the new coaches might be very good, but there is a definite possibility that we are better but borderline for firing in 2 or 3 years, and I definitely think he is here through 17, when we see what he can do with a talented OL with some experience. And by the start of that year he will have four full years experience as a head coach, what more could he possibly learn after that, LOL.

But go ahead and scream about firing him now, you might accomplish something, like hurting recruiting now, I guarantee you that will be all you can possibly accomplish

 

[WildcatDJ]

I think there are several things UK fans like about Leach.

He's been here before and we are familiar with him and his style of play. It is fun to watch. He plays to win and is a proven winner, something we rarely have a chance to hire at KY. He's also very entertaining and likable in interviews. In many interviews he made it apparent he has a fondness for UK.

All this said, I'm still behind Stoops at this point. He seems to be making necessary moves, such as adding experience to the sidelines as well as someone with special teams experience. After his fifth year if he still is having several in game errors and we're still hovering at five wins it will be obvious what needs to be done.

 

[RonEJones]

Couple thoughts:

1. Leach has had major clock management issues at Wazoo during his tenure. He 100% cost them a bowl game win a couple years ago in the New Mexico Bowl. He takes a knee during that final series and they win the game. There are a lot of questions around that aspect of his coaching.

2. In 2008, they got destroyed by 44 points to Oklahoma as the #2 team in the nation. A great season, but if if you think getting destroyed by 44 and then getting beat in your bowl game is on the cusp of a National Championship, I will disagree with that.

Like you, I question if Stoops is the guy. I hope he is, I really do. We will never know if Leach would have panned out here. There was a reason why a number of schools passed on leach when he was out of a job for 2 years. I know we have to take those chances when hiring a coach, but all AD's were staying away from him for a couple of years.

1. Not saying Leach is perfect. Hell, even Saban has made a few bad decisions. But Leach has a track record of success and if you look at his body of work, his schemes are great, teams are disciplined and he doesn't make bad decisions often. 3 years in we can't say that about Stoops.

2. There was some hyperbole in the natty comment but the gist of the comment is he's done more at tech than any coach has done in my lifetime at UK and was right on the cusp of championship shot 10 games in the 2008 season. He's really good and we'd be out kicking our converage to have a coach of his expertise and accomplishments.

He was out of coaching only 1 year and the lawsuit was the reason. However, at UK you have to take chances. We don't get a Leach unless he has a few warts.

With that said, the main point of this thread wasn't to call for Leach to UK. Unless we have a Mike Pratt in FB to help Mitch see the big picture, he won't get a sniff if Stoops can't figure it out. The point was showing a few on this board (I know kacat lurks here) that they were and are idiots to poo poo on Leach as UK's coach. The guy is a winner and would win at UK.

 

[Kats23]

You must have gone to UL, 3 plus 3 or 4 equals 6-7, not 7-8. Now some think Brohm is the next Bear (Trinity grad, UL grad, BP disciple, why would he take the job, first loss fans would claim he was trying to lose) and he said it would take 6 years. a bit more than 3 or 4 don't you think? Where is our talent level now compared to when Stoops took over?

How long until we don't have to pay Stoops for not coaching, remember our DC, Brown? I think UK is going to improve a lot, lots of holes being filled and the new coaches might be very good, but there is a definite possibility that we are better but borderline for firing in 2 or 3 years, and I definitely think he is here through 17, when we see what he can do with a talented OL with some experience. And by the start of that year he will have four full years experience as a head coach, what more could he possibly learn after that, LOL.

But go ahead and scream about firing him now, you might accomplish something, like hurting recruiting now, I guarantee you that will be all you can possibly accomplish

First, I count year 4 as already starting so anyone who wants to say in 3-4 years if the coaching isn't matching the talent that's a max of 8 seasons. Which I'm sorry, that's insane. And I know Brohm said this and Butch Jones said that about 6 years and they are probably right when you say you want you have a program at a level of sustainable success, that's going to take 6 years. However, that's a coach saying that. They are always going to say that stuff to buy time. No coach worth their salt is going to say to the fanbase, we're going to have it done in 3 years. That would be career suicide. That's propping yourself up for failure.

The administration should be able to decide after the 2016 season if Mark Stoops is the guy or not. If he goes 4-8 or worse than he needs to be fired and go get someone while the roster is still attractive enough. You can't in 3-4 seasons from 2016 if UK is not winning more than 6 games a year say "let's take a good hard look at our coach."

I think one more losing season puts this thing to bed. 5 may save his butt for one more year but 4-8 puts this thing out of it's misery. I think the big money boosters will force it. I know people like to feel important on this board. but we're not. A-holes on a messageboard do not hurt recruiting. Twitter doesn't hurt recruiting. There might be 1 or 2 exceptions but the majority don't. So please stop with the trying to make Catsillustarted more important than it is. It's not.

 

[bthaunert]

1. Not saying Leach is perfect. Hell, even Saban has made a few bad decisions. But Leach has a track record of success and if you look at his body of work, his schemes are great, teams are disciplined and he doesn't make bad decisions often. 3 years in we can't say that about Stoops.

2. There was some hyperbole in the natty comment but the gist of the comment is he's done more at tech than any coach has done in my lifetimes and was right on the cusp 10 games in the 2008 season. He's really good and we'd be out kicking our converage to have a coach of his expertise and accomplishments.

He was out of coaching only 1 year and the lawsuit was the reason. However, at UK you have to take chances. We don't get a Leach unless he has a few warts.

With that said, the main point of this thread wasn't to call for Leach to UK. Unless we have a Mike Pratt in FB to help Mitch see the big picture, he won't get a sniff if Stoops can't figure it out. The point was showing a few on this board (I know kacat lurks here) that they were and are idiots to poo poo on Leach as UK's coach. The guy is a winner and would win at UK.

I think he was out for 2 years. His last year at Texas tech was the 2009 season and his first year at Wazoo was 2012.

If there was a Mike Pratt in this situation it was Tim Couch, who helped a ton in the hiring process and was a huge proponent of Stoops.

 

[Levibooty]

PAC 12 thought enough of him to name him Coach of the Year. Wonder if Stoops will ever receive that award.

Bill Curry did.

 

[Shavers48]

Bill Curry did.

Bama screwed that guy up good.

 

[jc2010]

Good for him. He was not clean enough for Mitch and the timing wasn't right to dump Joker. He still needed more time to completely bury the program.

Yeah, the hole wasn't quite deep enough yet

 

[jc2010]

Who is obsessed? Much like Calipari, Barnhart passed on someone who may not be squeaky clean (Leach has a rep for being stubborn and doing what he feels is best regardless of what anyone thinks - i.e. he's not an *** kisser). Leach's issue (Adam James) was just as frivolous as Cal's but some people can't see the forest through the trees.

With that said, the backlash against Leach is odd indeed. Reading this board you'd think he was Joker Phillips.

There is none so blind as he who will not see

 

[jc2010]

Brohm said he would need six years. FYI

6 yrs to do what? Compete in the East, win the East, win the SEC, just saying he would need 6 yrs means nothing

 

[jc2010]

I don't care how many years Stoops gets as long as Barney is AD

 

[truebluewildcat_rivals34254]

never had a losing season at tech...always made a bowl...

...on his way to building a stable and competitive program at WSU...

that's what outside the box thinking does...its worked for him in the SEC, B12, and now P12...

i'm not sure how or why people were so opposed to him and thought he'd washed up...he has a proven track record of success in P5 conferences...

 

[Levibooty]

6 yrs to do what? Compete in the East, win the East, win the SEC, just saying he would need 6 yrs means nothing

You upset? Your post seems like something you could find out for yourself.

 

[jc2010]

You upset? Your post seems like something you could find out for yourself.

No, not in the least, the 6 yr thing was thrown out there and I thought you might be good enough to tell us what it means.

 

[BlueRaider22]

He's a good coach but let's not act like he's elite. He won an average amount at an average Big12 school. He won 59% of his games at TTU. A program that historically has won 56% of their games. They were seen as being middle class in the Big12 before and after Leach.

I would be happy to have him as UK's coach but I'm realistic to what he is. In the Big12 he was an 8 win coach while coaching at a middle team. In the Pac12 he likely will win 7-8 wins/yr at a lower tier team. At UK he likely would win 7 wins a yr given the toughness of the conference and poor school history.

 

[Levibooty]

No, not in the least, the 6 yr thing was thrown out there and I thought you might be good enough to tell us what it means.

Well good. Still why don't you google it for yourself. That way you'll feel a lot better about it.

 

[jc2010]

He's a good coach but let's not act like he's elite. He won an average amount at an average Big12 school. He won 59% of his games at TTU. A program that historically has won 56% of their games. They were seen as being middle class in the Big12 before and after Leach.

I would be happy to have him as UK's coach but I'm realistic to what he is. In the Big12 he was an 8 win coach while coaching at a middle team. In the Pac12 he likely will win 7-8 wins/yr at a lower tier team. At UK he likely would win 7 wins a yr given the toughness of the conference and poor school history.

If he would average 7 wins a season at UK we 'd name the stadium after him, the field, erect statues and run him for governor

 

[bthaunert]

He's a good coach but let's not act like he's elite. He won an average amount at an average Big12 school. He won 59% of his games at TTU. A program that historically has won 56% of their games. They were seen as being middle class in the Big12 before and after Leach.

I would be happy to have him as UK's coach but I'm realistic to what he is. In the Big12 he was an 8 win coach while coaching at a middle team. In the Pac12 he likely will win 7-8 wins/yr at a lower tier team. At UK he likely would win 7 wins a yr given the toughness of the conference and poor school history.

I think he won 66% of his games at TTU.

 

[jc2010]

Well good. Still why don't you google it for yourself. That way you'll feel a lot better about it.

Just thought since you brought it up you might explain its relevance

 

[Levibooty]

Yeah but now I'm going to drop it, so if you really are as interested as you say...well heck you could have already looked it up for yourself by now.

 

[jc2010]

Yeah but now I'm going to drop it, so if you really are as interested as you say...well heck you could have already looked it up for yourself by now.

Evidently its a piece of non information so I don't guess I'll bother

 

[BlueRaider22]

I think he won 66% of his games at TTU.

You're right. I just did his overall percentage not TTU alone. I guess he was about 1 game/yr above average at TTU.

 

[Chuckinden]

PAC 12 thought enough of him to name him Coach of the Year. Wonder if Stoops will ever receive that award.

I doubt it. I believe you have to be coaching in the PAC 12 to be considered.

OK, just busting your chops. I can't imagine Stoops ever getting the SEC COY, but I would sure like to see it happen.

 

[ktbug]

Beat one ranked team, only played three all year. Got smoked 45-10 in their last game vs Washington. He tore it up!!! But he passes the ball!!!!!!!

 

[Shavers48]

Beat one ranked team, only played three all year. Got smoked 45-10 in their last game vs Washington. He tore it up!!! But he passes the ball!!!!!!!

missed FG from beating Stanford too. but you'd of course leave that out as well as leave out his starting QB was out against Wash. you're really
struggling w this aren't you?

 

[sluggercatfan]

missed FG from beating Stanford too. but you'd of course leave that out as well as leave out his starting QB was out against Wash. you're really
struggling w this aren't you?

Guess it goes without saying their outstanding QB did not play

 

[ktbug]

missed FG from beating Stanford too. but you'd of course leave that out as well as leave out his starting QB was out against Wash. you're really
struggling w this aren't you?

Give you that, did he play vs. Portland State?
If you think his style would do well in the SEC, then I am glad you aren't making the hiring decisions.

 

[NoDef]

Leach took TTU to a team in the conversation of the National Championship and took one of the worst jobs in a P5 to a decent bowl game. Only a few coaches out there that can do that and I hope Stoops can somehow make it happen here.

 

[Shavers48]

Give you that, did he play vs. Portland State?
If you think his style would do well in the SEC, then I am glad you aren't making the hiring decisions.

Give you that, did he play vs. Portland State?
If you think his style would do well in the SEC, then I am glad you aren't making the hiring decisions.

see, I look at the Portland st game and go, damn, did he ever bring a new QB along an incredible amount during a season. and you just try to use it unsuccessfully as proof he can't coach. oh well.

 

[jauk11]

Bama screwed that guy up good.

I tend to think UK screwed that guy up good.

 

[Ukbrassowtipin]

But he won 3 games in his 3rd year at wsu...pretty sure you wldve wanted to fire him before his 4th

 

[zcats]

Leach is a proven successful HC that fact cannot be argued. All this banter about the quality of his schedule is just talk. As UK fans we should be more concerned with the level of ineptitude demonstrated each year in the management and leadership of our football program since Coach Brooks left. Would Leach have done better? It is hard to imagine that he could have done worse.

 

[Blueaz]

Leach had a good year at WSU. Their fans wanted him gone after his 12-24 regular season record in his first 3 years and his loss to a FCS team to start the year. Let's hope that puts a little light into Stoops 12-24 record after his first 3 seasons...the exact same as Leach prior to this year.

As for the WSU job, not nearly as bad as many people make it out to be. From 1987 - 2007, WSU had 3 coaches, all who left with winning records. They had 6 seasons with 9 or 10 wins during that time. Something we would die for here! They made a bad hire with Wulff and got rid of him after 4 years, when Leach took over.

your wrong...stoops sucks; leach just needed more time, and, and stop throwing facts around. it makes you look right and the others wrong:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

 

[Levibooty]

Well it's always nice to have a little perspective. Sometimes numbers is all you have when trying to imagine how one team in another conference would do in the SEC. One thing is obvious, a leopard really doesn't change it's spots much.

2015 Defensive rankings comparison WSU----UK Leach's best year at WSU

Total defense------------------93---62

Scoring defense---------------83---70

Rushing Defense--------------98---96

Passing yards allowed--------64---31

Mike Leach seems to perform best in conferences where defenses aren't as stiff as the SEC. In fact while at TTU his record against the SEC was 1-3.

I've never said Mike leach wasn't good. He is very good in a narrowly focused limited view of his career, but his overall performance doesn't stand up nearly as well when inspected through the prism of the SEC.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

Beat one ranked team, only played three all year. Got smoked 45-10 in their last game vs Washington. He tore it up!!! But he passes the ball!!!!!!!

HE THROWS IT DOWN THE FIELD!!! AIR RAIIIIIIID!!!!11111

Air raid offenses wont cut it anymore in any conference that puts any value on defense. The SEC just chewed up and spit out our last 2 OC's who were, by all accounts, excellent air raid OC's. Air raid used to be a legitimate offense. But now high level CFB has seen plenty enough of the air raid, and has clearly gotten used to stopping it with increasing regularity.

The only viable spread passing attack in todays game, is one that includes the read/spread option.

 

[Levibooty]

HE THROWS IT DOWN THE FIELD!!! AIR RAIIIIIIID!!!!11111

Air raid offenses wont cut it anymore in any conference that puts any value on defense. The SEC just chewed up and spit out our last 2 OC's who were, by all accounts, excellent air raid OC's. Air raid used to be a legitimate offense. But now high level CFB has seen plenty enough of the air raid, and has clearly gotten used to stopping it with increasing regularity.

The only viable spread passing attack in todays game, is one that includes the read/spread option.

I do think Leach's air raid is effective at the level he plays but the fact remains Mike Leach doesn't play the same teams we play year in and year out. Bringing in an offense that works against Big 12 or Pac 12 teams doesn't mean it will be successful in a strong defensive conference and there is none stronger than the SEC.

 

[zcats]

All that counts is that a coach finds ways to win games. We can argue that the SEC is impossible but they certainly have not looked very good for the past couple of seasons with the exception of the top 2-4 teams. At least Leach has shown the ability to coordinate a program with all 3 phases of the game being competitive. Getting people on and off the field and that sort of thing.

 

[Levibooty]

All that counts is that a coach finds ways to win games. We can argue that the SEC is impossible but they certainly have not looked very good for the past couple of seasons with the exception of the top 2-4 teams. At least Leach has shown the ability to coordinate a program with all 3 phases of the game being competitive. Getting people on and off the field and that sort of thing.

And yet Kentucky beats WSU in every defensive category this year.

 

[bthaunert]

Well it's always nice to have a little perspective. Sometimes numbers is all you have when trying to imagine how one team in another conference would do in the SEC. One thing is obvious, a leopard really doesn't change it's spots much.

2015 Defensive rankings comparison WSU----UK Leach's best year at WSU

Total defense------------------93---62

Scoring defense---------------83---70

Rushing Defense--------------98---96

Passing yards allowed--------64---31

Mike Leach seems to perform best in conferences where defenses aren't as stiff as the SEC. In fact while at TTU his record against the SEC was 1-3.

I've never said Mike leach wasn't good. He is very good in a narrowly focused limited view of his career, but his overall performance doesn't stand up nearly as well when inspected through the prism of the SEC.

There could be two parts to the debate. There is only 1 SEC team in the top 30 in YPG in the NCAA this year (Ole Miss). 6 PAC 12 teams and 6 Big 12 teams are in the top 30. So, which is harder to do...score against SEC teams or contain Big 12 and Pac 12 teams?