Most Terror attacks committed by.....

BigLickMountee

Redshirt
Nov 10, 2003
26,693
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The Nazi's (fascists) were far Right Wingers.......just helping you with your comparison. ;)
Right Winger as the same equivalent affiliation as it is used to label the GOP in America?

I highly recommend you research the Nazi party, it origins, and what it stood for. You might get a clue and see what the Nazi party really was and see it is not the GOP, if you even remotely hinted they are equal.

and I can't see how you helped the comparison, but thanks anyway.
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
44
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nazi's were both socialists and fascists making them both left wing and right wing. They were dangerous as they took the worse from both extremes.

fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/
noun (sometimes capital)
1.
any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such asGerman National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology ormovement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that isfundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2.
any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may becharacterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
I'm familiar with those definitions, Bru, associating 'national' and 'authoritarian' with the right. However, that would make the USSR and Red China right wing--which clearly they are not. So national and authoritarian can describe both left and the right. What defines right against left is limited government over large government; employment and industry controlled by the private sector and natural market forces over government control of industry and management of market forces; individual rights over group rights. By these criteria the Nazis were wholly on the left.
 

WVUBRU

Freshman
Aug 7, 2001
24,731
62
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I'm familiar with those definitions, Bru, associating 'national' and 'authoritarian' with the right. However, that would make the USSR and Red China right wing--which clearly they are not. So national and authoritarian can describe both left and the right. What defines right against left is limited government over large government; employment and industry controlled by the private sector and natural market forces over government control of industry and management of market forces; individual rights over group rights. By these criteria the Nazis were wholly on the left.
That is YOUR conclusion. Not necessarily how scholars have concluded. And I take an opposing opinion to yours as well. Difference is, I am willing to admit my position is opinion on a conclusion made by others.
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
44
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When people say that you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own fact, your response is exactly what they are referring to.

By the way, North Korea is officially titled The Democratic People's Republic of Korea. I can't for the life of me figure out our issue with that country. I know they are a democracy. It says so right in their name.
The difference is the Nazis operated as a socialist regime in many ways. The distinguishing characteristic between the communists and the fascists is the racial animus.
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
44
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That is YOUR conclusion. Not necessarily how scholars have concluded. And I take an opposing opinion to yours as well. Difference is, I am willing to admit my position is opinion on a conclusion made by others.
Ok, but where is my error(s) in both demonstrating nationalism and socialism are not distinguishing characteristics and defining right against left?
 

WVUBRU

Freshman
Aug 7, 2001
24,731
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Ok, but where is my error(s) in both demonstrating nationalism and socialism are not distinguishing characteristics and defining right against left?
Your error is in the narrow beliefs of nationalism and socialism as the only things that defines right and left. You don't have to believe in socialism and have left wing beliefs. Same goes for the other scenario.
 

dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
60,597
812
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Your error is in the narrow beliefs of nationalism and socialism as the only things that defines right and left. You don't have to believe in socialism and have left wing beliefs. Same goes for the other scenario.
The nazis were socialists thus they were left wing.
 

MountaineerWV

Sophomore
Sep 18, 2007
26,324
191
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The nazis were socialists thus they were left wing.

The Nazis were FASCISTS......and that is RIGHT WING. Communists are on the other end of the spectrum. Anyone with ANY knowledge about fascists and communists know this. And socialism is NOT communism....
 

dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
60,597
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The Nazis were FASCISTS......and that is RIGHT WING. Communists are on the other end of the spectrum. Anyone with ANY knowledge about fascists and communists know this. And socialism is NOT communism....
Nazis were socialists. Left wing. Read my link and accept being wrong.
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
44
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Your error is in the narrow beliefs of nationalism and socialism as the only things that defines right and left. You don't have to believe in socialism and have left wing beliefs. Same goes for the other scenario.
What? I specifically said nationalism (as well as authoritarianism) is not a distinguishing characteristic. I then went on to list several distinguishing characteristics. What left-wing beliefs are not socialist?
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
44
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The Nazis were FASCISTS......and that is RIGHT WING. Communists are on the other end of the spectrum. Anyone with ANY knowledge about fascists and communists know this. And socialism is NOT communism....
Fascists were not right-wing. The most you could say is fascism is a combination of left and right, and that is only if you classify nationalism and authoritarian as right-wing. I think it's fairly simple to demonstrate those two traits are found in both left and right states.
 

dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
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People and professors a WHOLE lot smarter than you, Dave, say otherwise.
Its okay if you refuse to read the link and choose ignorance. You obviously cannot debate the point so I am wrong because random other people say so. Good night fool. Another ignorant rant from you.
 

MountaineerWV

Sophomore
Sep 18, 2007
26,324
191
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Its okay if you refuse to read the link and choose ignorance. You obviously cannot debate the point so I am wrong because random other people say so. Good night fool. Another ignorant rant from you.

My point, Dave, is that for every link you provide I can provide one that says fascism, and most dictatorial regimes, are right wing. You and Cajun keep harping on the "socialist" part of the NAZI party. During the post WWI and Great Depression years, almost every government (right or left) were in some form "socialist".
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
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My point, Dave, is that for every link you provide I can provide one that says fascism, and most dictatorial regimes, are right wing. You and Cajun keep harping on the "socialist" part of the NAZI party. During the post WWI and Great Depression years, almost every government (right or left) were in some form "socialist".
That's not remotely true. Look, what distinguished the right and left in the late 19th and early 20th century is the former was aristocratic/democratic and the latter was socialist. Post-WWII saw the move in Western Europe to "democratic socialism". Now right and left are capitalist/conservative vs. socialist/liberal.

Also immigration as defined by left and right policies is a very late (60's) advent.
 

dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
60,597
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My point, Dave, is that for every link you provide I can provide one that says fascism, and most dictatorial regimes, are right wing. You and Cajun keep harping on the "socialist" part of the NAZI party. During the post WWI and Great Depression years, almost every government (right or left) were in some form "socialist".
You should read the link. You cant change the facts.
 

MountaineerWV

Sophomore
Sep 18, 2007
26,324
191
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They also cannot change facts. The Nazis were socialists.

You do realize that socialists are not always communists and not always on the left........I'm kidding myself, you would argue with Einstein and never admit you were wrong.....
 

TarHeelEer

Freshman
Dec 15, 2002
89,304
53
48
People are quick to say "Hitler was left-wing" because he supported liberalism. That's not correct. He was considered a "liberal" because he wanted to change the current German structure. Meaning, he wanted to change the way the government was ran and the freedoms certain individuals (Jews, Communists) had. Thus, since he wanted these changes, he was lumped in to a European "liberal" viewpoint.

So it was liberalism, just not your liberalism.
 

dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
60,597
812
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http://www.national-socialism.com/socialism/

You won't read this, so I'm wasting my time. But this shows you the difference between liberalism and socialism......
I have no idea why you keep referencing liberalism because that is irrelevant. The Nazi's were socialist. Not only in name but in practice as my earlier link proved. I realized when I posted the link that you would not read it so I was wasting my time.
 

MountaineerWV

Sophomore
Sep 18, 2007
26,324
191
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I have no idea why you keep referencing liberalism because that is irrelevant. The Nazi's were socialist. Not only in name but in practice as my earlier link proved. I realized when I posted the link that you would not read it so I was wasting my time.

Proved my point. You did NOT read the article. You are wrong, Dave.
 

dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
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Proved my point. You did NOT read the article. You are wrong, Dave.
I read it. Like most of your logic in this and most threads it was irrelevant to the point. Nazis were socialist. Left winged socialist. You cannot change facts.
 

MountaineerWV

Sophomore
Sep 18, 2007
26,324
191
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I read it. Like most of your logic in this and most threads it was irrelevant to the point. Nazis were socialist. Left winged socialist. You cannot change facts.

Ok, well maybe you'll enjoy this read then? Like I've said, numerous people way smarter than you or I have stated that the Nazis and Hitler were Right wing politicians and thinkers, along with the fact that the "socialist" title was just that....a title.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/NazismSocialism.html

http://shoqvalue.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-lie
 

bornaneer

All-Conference
Jan 23, 2014
30,906
1,605
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I have no idea why you keep referencing liberalism because that is irrelevant. The Nazi's were socialist. Not only in name but in practice as my earlier link proved. I realized when I posted the link that you would not read it so I was wasting my time.

Our lib friends won't like it when they do some research and find out how FDR and his inner circle felt about Hitler and Mussolini.......It's like there were "Three New Deals".
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
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Ok, well maybe you'll enjoy this read then? Like I've said, numerous people way smarter than you or I have stated that the Nazis and Hitler were Right wing politicians and thinkers, along with the fact that the "socialist" title was just that....a title.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/NazismSocialism.html

http://shoqvalue.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-lie
Both articles are highly flawed. The first relies solely on association. This is a logical fallacy. Because some capitalists like the Nazis that doesn't mean that the Nazis were capitalists, nor does it mean that those capitalists agreed with everything about the Nazis. Saying the Nazis were not socialist because they imprisoned and killed socialists is like saying 16th century Catholics are not Christians because they imprisoned and killed Protestant Christians. Brothers sometimes disagreed to the point of death. The first murder was Cain killing Abel.

The second article repeats these fallacies, and adds to them strawman arguments. Because someone lists among their arguments for Nazis as left wing the fact the official name of the party was National Socialist German Worker's Party means neither the name is the only argument proposed, nor is it necessarily the primary basis for the argument.

What neither article does is demonstrate the particular policies of the Nazis which are clearly right wing. The latter article attempts to associate extreme nationalism with the right. As I demonstrated above nationalism and authoritarianism are not particular to the left or the right.
 

DvlDog4WVU

All-Conference
Feb 2, 2008
47,162
3,205
113
Both articles are highly flawed. The first relies solely on association. This is a logical fallacy. Because some capitalists like the Nazis that doesn't mean that the Nazis were capitalists, nor does it mean that those capitalists agreed with everything about the Nazis. Saying the Nazis were not socialist because they imprisoned and killed socialists is like saying 16th century Catholics are not Christians because they imprisoned and killed Protestant Christians. Brothers sometimes disagreed to the point of death. The first murder was Cain killing Abel.

The second article repeats these fallacies, and adds to them strawman arguments. Because someone lists among their arguments for Nazis as left wing the fact the official name of the party was National Socialist German Worker's Party means neither the name is the only argument proposed, nor is it necessarily the primary basis for the argument.

What neither article does is demonstrate the particular policies of the Nazis which are clearly right wing. The latter article attempts to associate extreme nationalism with the right. As I demonstrated above nationalism and authoritarianism are not particular to the left or the right.
From a bystander's position only, I have yet to read anything posted in this thread that would lead me to change my opinion that Cajuneer and Dave are winning this debate. I may not even be in agreement with them currently, but from an argument's stand point, they are waxing the floor with you MountaineerWV
 

bornaneer

All-Conference
Jan 23, 2014
30,906
1,605
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Both articles are highly flawed. The first relies solely on association. This is a logical fallacy. Because some capitalists like the Nazis that doesn't mean that the Nazis were capitalists, nor does it mean that those capitalists agreed with everything about the Nazis. Saying the Nazis were not socialist because they imprisoned and killed socialists is like saying 16th century Catholics are not Christians because they imprisoned and killed Protestant Christians. Brothers sometimes disagreed to the point of death. The first murder was Cain killing Abel.

The second article repeats these fallacies, and adds to them strawman arguments. Because someone lists among their arguments for Nazis as left wing the fact the official name of the party was National Socialist German Worker's Party means neither the name is the only argument proposed, nor is it necessarily the primary basis for the argument.

What neither article does is demonstrate the particular policies of the Nazis which are clearly right wing. The latter article attempts to associate extreme nationalism with the right. As I demonstrated above nationalism and authoritarianism are not particular to the left or the right.
Yes..... both those extremely flawed . They fit in with the libs revisionist historians,academicians and think tanks. This sentence from your reply sums up what the articles attempt to do; "The latter article attempts to associate extreme nationalism with the right." The next revision we can expect is that Democrats are not and never were racists.
 
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MountaineerWV

Sophomore
Sep 18, 2007
26,324
191
0
So, those articles are "flawed", but the ones that are slanted towards the other point of view are not? I find that funny.....and "flawed".....as it fits the agenda of the others side. Fascists believed in the glorification of the state over the individual, including individual rights and freedoms. That is NOT liberal viewpoints.

Again, you guys can have your opinion all you would like about this topic. But, when some of the most highly educated scholars come out and state what I have, then I'll tend to lean towards their viewpoints over your own. Just saying. No hard feelings.
 

bornaneer

All-Conference
Jan 23, 2014
30,906
1,605
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Fascists believed in the glorification of the state over the individual, including individual rights and freedoms. That is NOT liberal viewpoints.
But, when some of the most highly educated scholars come out and state what I have, then I'll tend to lean towards their viewpoints over your own. Just saying. No hard feelings.

I never said it was a liberal viewpoint. Are you saying it is a conservative viewpoint? Most conservatives I know are ardent supporters of individual rights and freedoms. The point is that many of Hitler's and Mussolini's viewpoints and actions are considered "liberal" by some of the most highly educated scholars of today. Be careful in what you say......you are painting yourself into a corner.
 
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CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
44
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So, those articles are "flawed", but the ones that are slanted towards the other point of view are not? I find that funny.....and "flawed".....as it fits the agenda of the others side.

I didn't say their arguments are flawed because they take a position opposite my own. I clearly presented their flaws. If I'm wrong in my evaluation show me how I'm wrong.

Fascists believed in the glorification of the state over the individual, including individual rights and freedoms. That is NOT liberal viewpoints.

First the argument is left verses right, not liberal verses right. Second, a distinct characteristic of left/socialist ideology is the value of the whole over the one, the state over the individual. It is right/capitalist ideology which holds the individual over the state--hence limited government.

Again, you guys can have your opinion all you would like about this topic. But, when some of the most highly educated scholars come out and state what I have, then I'll tend to lean towards their viewpoints over your own. Just saying. No hard feelings.
This is a case of argumentum ad verecundiam, appeal to authority. Argument is sound and valid because of the merits of the argument or it is not because it is unsound or invalid or both. Who says it doesn't make it a good argument.
 

CAJUNEER_rivals

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
72,872
44
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So, those articles are "flawed", but the ones that are slanted towards the other point of view are not? I find that funny.....and "flawed".....as it fits the agenda of the others side. Fascists believed in the glorification of the state over the individual, including individual rights and freedoms. That is NOT liberal viewpoints.

Again, you guys can have your opinion all you would like about this topic. But, when some of the most highly educated scholars come out and state what I have, then I'll tend to lean towards their viewpoints over your own. Just saying. No hard feelings.
Also your sources are a math professor, a blogger, and Wikipedia. I'll now swing the coup de gras.

From your "Fascism" Wikipedia article:

"Fascism/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe, influenced by national syndicalism. "

From the "National Syndicalism" Wikipedia link:

"National syndicalism is an adaptation of syndicalism to suit the social agenda of integral nationalism."

From the "Syndicalism" Wikipedia link:

"Syndicalism is a proposed type of economic system, a form of socialism, considered a replacement for capitalism."
 
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dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
60,597
812
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Ok, well maybe you'll enjoy this read then? Like I've said, numerous people way smarter than you or I have stated that the Nazis and Hitler were Right wing politicians and thinkers, along with the fact that the "socialist" title was just that....a title.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/NazismSocialism.html

http://shoqvalue.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-lie

Yes, when the first link mentioned that it was debunking propaganda from "Fox News" people, I chuckled and stopped reading. People much smarter than me, linked in this thread, explained how the Nazi's were socialist. I am guessing that those people join me in the subset of humans smarter than you. Their socialist tag was not "just a title."

Note that I do enjoy how hard you are trying to tab the socialist Nazi's as right wingers. It is really stupid and pretty funny.