My view of the Basketball Program Right Now

[adcoop]

I have sat back and read through all of the various threads on the Basketball season and state of our program. I hope many are knee-jerk reactions brought on by a very frustrating year. The thought of our team having a historically bad season. Is that even serious? Do some of you guys remember Fig Newton. Do you remember the end of the Fogler years when Fogler burned out with regard to recruiting. Remember the end of the Darrin Horn era? Remember the Frank Martin Covid year. Yes, this year has been hard, but we are one year removed from being in the tournament. Not the NIT. The real one. That doesn't happen much around here. One year later, we have some talking about Paris is Burning and Paris has to go. SMH. Now, I admit. A lot that occurred during last year was "Fools Gold". It was built on One Year Transfers that had played a lot of basketball. You can't depend on the Transfer Portal to hit every year. At some point, you have to build it with your own guys and supplement through the portal and we are just not there yet. The guy got hired in April of '22. So, you can't expect much from that year. You got GG, but he was only here as a quick pitstop to get to the league. The following year, Paris gets 3 guys. One that really helped us last year and can do so going forward, CMB. The two others (Ugusuk and Conyers) are coming along despite us having a really hard time right now. Ugusuk is easily our best shooter right now. These two need to get as much time as possible going forward. Hopefully, we will get a few wins, but the experience for these two guys is key. CMB has been on draft boards and everyone thinks he is probably gone. I'm not so sure. Our bad year along with uneven play from CMB has him dropping on draft boards. I have seen some recently that have him in the second round. You want to win, but our misfortune may turn into good fortune if CMB doesn't get the draft feedback he is looking for. In 24, you got Cam Scott. We were really depending on him to replace the production of guys like Meechie. Unfortunately, he is not ready and needs some additional seasoning. Finally, you have the incoming class of '25. This is the first class that Paris has had where he could develop a relationship with these kids dating back to 9th or 10th grade and develop a real class. Got a four man class coming in, and most importantly, have a Top 100 (68 on On3) PG with Ellis. So, if you don't have any defections, Paris will finally have 6-7 guys that you have had in the program and ready to play. That doesn't count Martin holdover, Zachary Davis, CMB, or any portal guys that he may add. You finally have a foundation to build a program. That's why it is always folly in talking about firing any coach until he gets through a 4 to 5 year cycle of guys going through his program. Only then, can you determine if he can really sustain anything. The only reason you would fire a coach this early would be serious recruiting violations or a woeful inability to develop game plans. Well, there is no talk of serious violations and we already know the man can develop a winning game plan. We just saw it last year. We even see flashes this year. We just have a team severely lacking in the area of ball handling and have found ways to lose games that we were in down the stretch of games.

So, what are we talking about with the "Paris is Burning" and other derogatory talk? Not saying you can't be critical, but I think some of the criticism is devolving into being super reactionary. Let's see what the man can build. If we are in this same spot in two years or only mediocre after another two years, then we can look at what do we do next. Any talk like that right now seems to be searching for a reason to get rid of the guy because you didn't believe in him in the first place.

 

[PrestonyteParrot]

''Paris is Burning'' was a dumb post. LP needs time and his players to build something and deserves it based on the first 2 years.
I am disappointed in some faults which this team exhibits for which coaching is the primary remedy such as free throw shooting, crisp passing/ball movement and handling full court pressure. Hopefully LP makes this a focus for the remainder of the season and demonstrates that he is the coach we all think he is. Overall, I am positive on the future with the recruiting LP has done, if he is able to maintain these commits through this disaster of a season.

 

[HI Cock1]

We've never been 0-7 to start conference play. That's historically bad.

 

[adcoop]

We've never been 0-7 to start conference play. That's historically bad.

If you want to use an incomplete season to get to historically bad, okay. However, Darrin Horn starting 1-11 in league play and ending DFL with a 2-14 record in Year 4 is pretty bad. He, also, did that after two losing seasons before that. Eddie Folgers going 8-21 in like Year 7 was pretty bad. Yes 0-7 in league play is bad. However, from what I see from this team, I still think they get a few by season's end and they stilll have a .500 overall record in spite of the 7 game losing streak.

 

[I4CtheFuture]

If you want to use an incomplete season to get to historically bad, okay. However, Darrin Horn starting 1-11 in league play and ending DFL with a 2-14 record in Year 4 is pretty bad. He, also, did that after two losing seasons before that. Eddie Folgers going 8-21 in like Year 7 was pretty bad. Yes 0-7 in league play is bad. However, from what I see from this team, I still think they get a few by season's end and they stilll have a .500 overall record in spite of the 7 game losing streak.

To be fair, he did say "to start"

All I'm saying is, words matter. Your words matter. His words matter. Not really sure where I'm going with this. Let's all pray for the Duke fan.
I'm one of the ones calling for termination. Yes, that's 100% frustration. For whatever reason, I've never really tuned into college basketball until March madness starts. Maybe the conference tournaments as long as we're making a run.

It's frustrating to me to tune into the 2nd half of a game only to see us fall apart time and time again. It's ridiculous. Having said that, I fully admit my knowledge of basketball is basically nothing, other than the rules of the game. That and MJ is the Goat. When it comes to basketball - ignore me. I don't know what I'm talking about. Football on the other hand is a very different story. My Saturday couch coaching is legendary.

 

[1vagamecock]

If you want to use an incomplete season to get to historically bad, okay. However, Darrin Horn starting 1-11 in league play and ending DFL with a 2-14 record in Year 4 is pretty bad. He, also, did that after two losing seasons before that. Eddie Folgers going 8-21 in like Year 7 was pretty bad. Yes 0-7 in league play is bad. However, from what I see from this team, I still think they get a few by season's end and they stilll have a .500 overall record in spite of the 7 game losing streak.

It has to start tonight.
Georgia is a game you HAVE to have to get back to respectability.
I think we can win tonight but I'm not optimistic about this year or next. The young pieces we have seem to have a medium ceiling not a high ceiling. Paris can supplement that with the portal but like I said I'm not optimistic.
Hope I'm wrong and eat crow but I'm betting I'm not.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I personally feel like CMB would benefit from another year to improve his draft stock. I see why the NBA likes him. Big, athletic guy who is pretty fluid and has a good finesse game. He is not a lights out isolated scorer though and IMO needs to improve his physicality with finishing and his scoring.

 

[gamecox4982]

I have sat back and read through all of the various threads on the Basketball season and state of our program. I hope many are knee-jerk reactions brought on by a very frustrating year. The thought of our team having a historically bad season. Is that even serious? Do some of you guys remember Fig Newton. Do you remember the end of the Fogler years when Fogler burned out with regard to recruiting. Remember the end of the Darrin Horn era? Remember the Frank Martin Covid year. Yes, this year has been hard, but we are one year removed from being in the tournament. Not the NIT. The real one. That doesn't happen much around here. One year later, we have some talking about Paris is Burning and Paris has to go. SMH. Now, I admit. A lot that occurred during last year was "Fools Gold". It was built on One Year Transfers that had played a lot of basketball. You can't depend on the Transfer Portal to hit every year. At some point, you have to build it with your own guys and supplement through the portal and we are just not there yet. The guy got hired in April of '22. So, you can't expect much from that year. You got GG, but he was only here as a quick pitstop to get to the league. The following year, Paris gets 3 guys. One that really helped us last year and can do so going forward, CMB. The two others (Ugusuk and Conyers) are coming along despite us having a really hard time right now. Ugusuk is easily our best shooter right now. These two need to get as much time as possible going forward. Hopefully, we will get a few wins, but the experience for these two guys is key. CMB has been on draft boards and everyone thinks he is probably gone. I'm not so sure. Our bad year along with uneven play from CMB has him dropping on draft boards. I have seen some recently that have him in the second round. You want to win, but our misfortune may turn into good fortune if CMB doesn't get the draft feedback he is looking for. In 24, you got Cam Scott. We were really depending on him to replace the production of guys like Meechie. Unfortunately, he is not ready and needs some additional seasoning. Finally, you have the incoming class of '25. This is the first class that Paris has had where he could develop a relationship with these kids dating back to 9th or 10th grade and develop a real class. Got a four man class coming in, and most importantly, have a Top 100 (68 on On3) PG with Ellis. So, if you don't have any defections, Paris will finally have 6-7 guys that you have had in the program and ready to play. That doesn't count Martin holdover, Zachary Davis, CMB, or any portal guys that he may add. You finally have a foundation to build a program. That's why it is always folly in talking about firing any coach until he gets through a 4 to 5 year cycle of guys going through his program. Only then, can you determine if he can really sustain anything. The only reason you would fire a coach this early would be serious recruiting violations or a woeful inability to develop game plans. Well, there is no talk of serious violations and we already know the man can develop a winning game plan. We just saw it last year. We even see flashes this year. We just have a team severely lacking in the area of ball handling and have found ways to lose games that we were in down the stretch of games.

So, what are we talking about with the "Paris is Burning" and other derogatory talk? Not saying you can't be critical, but I think some of the criticism is devolving into being super reactionary. Let's see what the man can build. If we are in this same spot in two years or only mediocre after another two years, then we can look at what do we do next. Any talk like that right now seems to be searching for a reason to get rid of the guy because you didn't believe in him in the first place getting

Getting to the tournament should not be what keeps you employed. Advancing in the tournament should help keep you employed.

 

[Evilchicken]

My problem with Paris is the inability to manage this team. While everyone in the SEC is growing, getting the pieces they need, and winning; we’re regressing in a historically good conference year. That happens because of poor management (recruiting, portal, NIL, retention, identifying talent, marketing, coaching). The best coaches can do all of this. He’s not at South Dakota State for Pete’s sake.

 

[adcoop]

Getting to the tournament should not be what keeps you employed. Advancing in the tournament should help keep you employed.

It should when a school that rarely gets there hires you. At least for awhile.

 

[Sleepyhead]

It should when a school that rarely gets there hires you. At least for awhile.

Yeah, but not an extension through the 2030 season worth 26 million dollars after a one and done tourney appearance. Maybe a raise or something, but they went in too deep imo.

 

[gamecock stock]

We did better than the pre-season expectations in Years 1 and 2. This season is disappointing. It's like Beamer. His teams exceeded expectations in Years 1 and 2. His 3rd season was disappointing. The difference between Paris and Beamer is that Paris has a track record of success as a Head Coach prior to coming here. My point is don't overreact at a disappointing 3rd season. It happens. I'm with "adcoop".

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

Finally, you have the incoming class of '25. This is the first class that Paris has had where he could develop a relationship with these kids dating back to 9th or 10th grade and develop a real class. Got a four man class coming in, and most importantly, have a Top 100 (68 on On3) PG with Ellis. So, if you don't have any defections, Paris will finally have 6-7 guys that you have had in the program and ready to play. That doesn't count Martin holdover, Zachary Davis, CMB, or any portal guys that he may add. You finally have a foundation to build a program.

1. For now, this is hardly guaranteed in todays climate.
2. This is would be exception not the rule. (again in todays climate)
3. When you have coaches quitting such as Saban, Tony Bennet (UVA) and Jim Larranaga (Miami), publicy stating that the days of building programs are long gone (hastening the end of their careers) , then it should be taken as this is now the status quo. You now build teams on a yearly basis. This is the new reality.

 

[treyno2722]

My problem with Paris is the inability to manage this team. While everyone in the SEC is growing, getting the pieces they need, and winning; we’re regressing in a historically good conference year. That happens because of poor management (recruiting, portal, NIL, retention, identifying talent, marketing, coaching). The best coaches can do all of this. He’s not at South Dakota State for Pete’s sake.

The Jackrabbits are 5-2 in the Summit League and 14-8 overall. Stay in your lane.

 

[adcoop]

1. For now, this is hardly guaranteed in todays climate.
2. This is would be exception not the rule. (again in todays climate)
3. When you have coaches quitting such as Saban, Tony Bennet (UVA) and Jim Larranaga (Miami), publicy stating that the days of building programs are long gone (hastening the end of their careers) , then it should be taken as this is now the status quo. You now build teams on a yearly basis. This is the new reality.

However, when you do the above, you are going to have some uneven results (i.e. Missouri). Gates was the hot new coach two years ago. The next year his team did an 0'fer in the conference. This year they are much better. I think you can build a little and need to. You may have to do it with B level talent, but you need some people in your program that have been in your system for awhile.

 

[atl-cock]

Your view of the men's Basketball Program Right Now.........​

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

However, when you do the above, you are going to have some uneven results (i.e. Missouri). Gates was the hot new coach two years ago. The next year his team did an 0'fer in the conference. This year they are much better. I think you can build a little and need to. You may have to do it with B level talent, but you need some people in your program that have been in your system for awhile.

You are misunderstanding my post, I'm not suggesting this is any kind of template to follow, but these are now the conditions that all programs are dealing with, obviously some can deal with it better than others, and others can not.
Keeping players in your program for 2-3 years is just not going to happen unless someone is willing to write a 2-3 NIL deal.

 

[1vagamecock]

You are misunderstanding my post, I'm not suggesting this is any kind of template to follow, but these are now the conditions that all programs are dealing with, obviously some can deal with it better than others, and others can not.
Keeping players in your program for 2-3 years is just not going to happen unless someone is willing to write a 2-3 NIL deal.

I don't see any players on this team (except CMB) that I want on this team next year let alone 2or 3.

 

[Beanerball]

We don’t have enough guys who can consistently score, mainly the guards, plus, we don’t have quality depth. We were thin inside last year, but made up for it with great guards. If MJ were still here it would be a different team, but a last, he’s not. There’s no fixing it this year. We play hard on defense, but are very lacking on offense. Can LP get better players? I still think he might can. But yes, it’s yet to be seen. I would like to see Cam Scott get more minutes to build his confidence, but not sure he’s ready to play defense yet. He has been riding the bench a lot lately

 

[Backyard Archer]

If you want to use an incomplete season to get to historically bad, okay. However, Darrin Horn starting 1-11 in league play and ending DFL with a 2-14 record in Year 4 is pretty bad. He, also, did that after two losing seasons before that. Eddie Folgers going 8-21 in like Year 7 was pretty bad. Yes 0-7 in league play is bad. However, from what I see from this team, I still think they get a few by season's end and they stilll have a .500 overall record in spite of the 7 game losing streak.

We're 10-11 with 10 games left. You think we go 6-4 the rest of the way to get back to .500??

 

[HI Cock1]

We're 10-11 with 10 games left. You think we go 6-4 the rest of the way to get back to .500??

 

[Piscis]

Will SC ever have a coach who is good from the time they are hired? I swear, every coach in every major sport "needs more time".

 

[Viennacock]

Will SC ever have a coach who is good from the time they are hired? I swear, every coach in every major sport "needs more time".

Someone like Coach Cal? Sure bet right out of the gate? Let me guess, he is washed up or we wouldn't want him?

 

[adcoop]

You are misunderstanding my post, I'm not suggesting this is any kind of template to follow, but these are now the conditions that all programs are dealing with, obviously some can deal with it better than others, and others can not.
Keeping players in your program for 2-3 years is just not going to happen unless someone is willing to write a 2-3 NIL deal.

With the exception of CMB, our kids are going to have nowhere to go unless they transfer down to a Mid-Major. Even CMB may be back in college next year unless he can start playing better and we can win a few games. CMB would have NIL options if he chose to take them. The others? They better be glad if their scholarship is not pulled. All they can do is put their head down and get better IMO.

 

[adcoop]

Will SC ever have a coach who is good from the time they are hired? I swear, every coach in every major sport "needs more time".

When your program has no tradition, why would an established coach with all the connections want to come here. Heck, even with the Women's Program, it took Dawn Staley a few years. Didn't make the NCAA tournament until Year 4.

 

[atl-cock]

Will SC ever have a coach who is good from the time they are hired? I swear, every coach in every major sport "needs more time".

Frank McGuire, even with the chip on his shoulder.

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

With the exception of CMB, our kids are going to have nowhere to go unless they transfer down to a Mid-Major. Even CMB may be back in college next year unless he can start playing better and we can win a few games. CMB would have NIL options if he chose to take them. The others? They better be glad if their scholarship is not pulled. All they can do is put their head down and get better IMO.

This is not the mindset of the players. If you play, the mindset will be "I'm good, and I'm being underutilized, I'll go where my talents can be exposed" Any player that has a mindset, well I'm lucky to be here, so I'll just stay" frankly is not someone that appears to posses the determination to be the very best they can be. Whether that is the case or not.

Aside from the above, Transfer down to Mid Major ? Memphis, Gonzaga, Utah St, Dayton, St Bonaventure, VCU, etc
They should be so lucky.

EDIT: What is not being discussed is the very real possibility Paris looks to the portal and "ADVISES" current players that their talents may be better served elsewhere.

 

[Viennacock]

This is not the mindset of the players. If you play, the mindset will be "I'm good, and I'm being underutilized, I'll go where my talents can be exposed" Any player that has a mindset, well I'm lucky to be here, so I'll just stay" frankly is not someone that appears to posses the determination to be the very best they can be. Whether that is the case or not.

Aside from the above, Transfer down to Mid Major ? Memphis, Gonzaga, Utah St, Dayton, St Bonaventure, VCU, etc
They should be so lucky.

EDIT: What is not being discussed is the very real possibility Paris looks to the portal and "ADVISES" current players that their talents may be better served elsewhere.

Fortunately, most of the players that are really struggling are seniors and there are a good many. This roster will naturally turn over. Most of the younger players have potential and will be fine. I'm sure some will move on.

I believe you will only see one or two familiar names in the line-up next year.

 

[Piscis]

Fortunately, most of the players that are really struggling are seniors and there are a good many. This roster will naturally turn over. Most of the younger players have potential and will be fine. I'm sure some will move on.

I believe you will only see one or two familiar names in the line-up next year.

In the modern college basketball world, if a player is a senior, he is likely not very good. Good players don't stay in college until they are seniors, most don't even stay until they are juniors.

 

[Viennacock]

In the modern college basketball world, if a player is a senior, he is likely not very good. Good players don't stay in college until they are seniors, most don't even stay until they are juniors.

Not sure i agree. We had 2-3 very good seniors last year. NBA talent? No, but very good college players. Modern college basketball needs veteran leadership and that's what we had last year at the point guard and center position.

If you are not NBA material, this doesn't mean you're not a very good college player.

On the flip side, we are getting very little veteran leadership this year. Particularly at the PG position.

 

[kidrobinski]

Not sure i agree. We had 2-3 very good seniors last year. NBA talent? No, but very good college players. Modern college basketball needs veteran leadership and that's what we had last year at the point guard and center position.

If you are not NBA material, this doesn't mean you're not a very good college player.

On the flip side, we are getting very little veteran leadership this year. Particularly at the PG position.

They appear to be frustrated with both themselves and with each other, and it appears to be across the board. I’m old school, real old, and not one that says eff it because they’re not winning, they’re my team, but it’s damn painful to watch them.

 

[SouthernBelly]

Will SC ever have a coach who is good from the time they are hired? I swear, every coach in every major sport "needs more time".

Not in basketball and football sans Spurrier, maybe Holtz.

 

[SouthernBelly]

Idc how it happened, they’re a bad team this year and while I wasn’t expecting a good season it would be nice to avoid going right back to the dumpster after a rather successful season by SC standards. But that’s the trend in basketball and football. Bad to ho-hum seasons, then a big year (followed by over zealous raises and extensions), and then back to the dumpster. No one makes these coaches sign these contracts. Pay increases should also come with expectation increases. Will Paris’ salary and perks decrease after this season? Will Beamer’s after the 2025 season?

 

[Forkcock]

Are any of you guys old enough to remember the Textile Tournament in Greenville, SC? It was around in the 70's and 80's. Textile mills would put teams together to play in a tournament at Greenville Memorial Auditorium. These teams were made up of High School, College, and former College players. This Carolina team reminds me of one of those old Textile Tournament teams.

 

[PrestonyteParrot]

Are any of you guys old enough to remember the Textile Tournament in Greenville, SC? It was around in the 70's and 80's. Textile mills would put teams together to play in a tournament at Greenville Memorial Auditorium. These teams were made up of High School, College, and former College players. This Carolina team reminds me of one of those old Textile Tournament teams.

That's because just about anybody could play on those teams.

 

[Forkcock]

That's because just about anybody could play on those teams.

That's my point.

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

Will SC ever have a coach who is good from the time they are hired? I swear, every coach in every major sport "needs more time".

Not in basketball and football sans Spurrier, maybe Holtz.

0-11 , first year
So no, not from the time they were hired

 

[Uscg1984]

Will SC ever have a coach who is good from the time they are hired? I swear, every coach in every major sport "needs more time".

Well, Brad Scott went 7-5, throttled Clemson, and led us to our first ever bowl win in his first year. We might call those results "modestly successful" nowadays, but at the time, every Gamecock fan was thrilled with those results. So, even initial success is not necessarily a harbinger of things to come.

 

[PrestonyteParrot]

0-11 , first year
So no, not from the time they were hired

Immediate gratification is the expectation for most things these days

 

[Atlanta Cock]

I have sat back and read through all of the various threads on the Basketball season and state of our program. I hope many are knee-jerk reactions brought on by a very frustrating year. The thought of our team having a historically bad season. Is that even serious? Do some of you guys remember Fig Newton. Do you remember the end of the Fogler years when Fogler burned out with regard to recruiting. Remember the end of the Darrin Horn era? Remember the Frank Martin Covid year. Yes, this year has been hard, but we are one year removed from being in the tournament. Not the NIT. The real one. That doesn't happen much around here. One year later, we have some talking about Paris is Burning and Paris has to go. SMH. Now, I admit. A lot that occurred during last year was "Fools Gold". It was built on One Year Transfers that had played a lot of basketball. You can't depend on the Transfer Portal to hit every year. At some point, you have to build it with your own guys and supplement through the portal and we are just not there yet. The guy got hired in April of '22. So, you can't expect much from that year. You got GG, but he was only here as a quick pitstop to get to the league. The following year, Paris gets 3 guys. One that really helped us last year and can do so going forward, CMB. The two others (Ugusuk and Conyers) are coming along despite us having a really hard time right now. Ugusuk is easily our best shooter right now. These two need to get as much time as possible going forward. Hopefully, we will get a few wins, but the experience for these two guys is key. CMB has been on draft boards and everyone thinks he is probably gone. I'm not so sure. Our bad year along with uneven play from CMB has him dropping on draft boards. I have seen some recently that have him in the second round. You want to win, but our misfortune may turn into good fortune if CMB doesn't get the draft feedback he is looking for. In 24, you got Cam Scott. We were really depending on him to replace the production of guys like Meechie. Unfortunately, he is not ready and needs some additional seasoning. Finally, you have the incoming class of '25. This is the first class that Paris has had where he could develop a relationship with these kids dating back to 9th or 10th grade and develop a real class. Got a four man class coming in, and most importantly, have a Top 100 (68 on On3) PG with Ellis. So, if you don't have any defections, Paris will finally have 6-7 guys that you have had in the program and ready to play. That doesn't count Martin holdover, Zachary Davis, CMB, or any portal guys that he may add. You finally have a foundation to build a program. That's why it is always folly in talking about firing any coach until he gets through a 4 to 5 year cycle of guys going through his program. Only then, can you determine if he can really sustain anything. The only reason you would fire a coach this early would be serious recruiting violations or a woeful inability to develop game plans. Well, there is no talk of serious violations and we already know the man can develop a winning game plan. We just saw it last year. We even see flashes this year. We just have a team severely lacking in the area of ball handling and have found ways to lose games that we were in down the stretch of games.

So, what are we talking about with the "Paris is Burning" and other derogatory talk? Not saying you can't be critical, but I think some of the criticism is devolving into being super reactionary. Let's see what the man can build. If we are in this same spot in two years or only mediocre after another two years, then we can look at what do we do next. Any talk like that right now seems to be searching for a reason to get rid of the guy because you didn't believe in him in the first place.

My view is we're stupid as hell. Either there is no gray matter or there is no coaching.