National Duals, '25, thread
- Thread starter Tom McAndrew
- Start date
I knew we would agree on this one. You understand the sport really well and have been around awhile you get it
Cael will do what's best for his team and winning 12 titles in 15 years says he knows what's best. Not sure why anyone would question that at this point. Do I like that the same team wins every year no I don't but I respect it. I'm just not fan of dynasties in any sport. But changing the system isn't the answer. The answer is recruit , develop and win. It's so 2025 now we can't win so let's change the format GTFOH
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It was a cute chest pump to say over skype in November. It’ll feel different come February. To paraphrase the great Thomas Gilman, “you don’t want to see us anywhere”
Hmmm. Trotting out against top competition before you have kicked the rust off with even a single dual, certainly before you are have January lungs. Watch Jesse Mendez go down with a season ending injury and see how the Tan man feels about this event, most notably at this time of the season.
Not wishing harm on any wrestler, but ...
(1) it's a bit early for this demanding an event. Period. Granted, our guys are probably in the best shape in the nation today (aren't we always)
(2). Little sense in wrestling opponents you will probably see 3x more during the year
(3). Very little drama, with PSU stacked with world teamers, we walk away with the top prize without PSI it really does get interesting for multiple programs and fans nationwide.
(4). A neutral site might be a bit more attractive. Cael isn't the kind of coach to prop up the competition.
One guy said it. Make it winner take all $$$, and see if the unbridled enthusiasm remains? Doubtful!
For PSU uniquely, it's almost all downside once you remove the selfish yearning to see our kids kick some early season ***.
Brands was on the right side of this in 2012.
That's no small part of the reason Koll tried to ram it down everyone's throats during the London Olympics. Cael and Brands were both out of the country and unable to vote or debate.
Yea, Koll and Jrob were the two pushing the hardest to switch because back then PSU would still lose an occasional dual or two before winning the tournament. It was a rather blatant self serving agenda since both coaches typically had better dual teams than tournament.
Although I'm very happy they didn't change the format, it would have been quite amusing if they did switch to a dual national championship because by time they got it implemented PSU still would have won almost every year anyway.
Although I'm very happy they didn't change the format, it would have been quite amusing if they did switch to a dual national championship because by time they got it implemented PSU still would have won almost every year anyway.
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Tom Ryan sent his own son to wrestlebacks in the first round of the Big Ten tournament so he wouldn’t have to face Jason Nolf, and now has the audacity to complain that Cael Sanderson lacks the integrity to grow the sport.
I am assuming the finals are only on ESPN2? I have been patient with losing a ton of football on YouTubeTV because of the Disney crap, but if it starts cutting into the minimal amount of nationally televised wrestling it's time to bail!
Good point, would be hilarious to see Cael say we’ll show up for a cool mil then bounce. So how bad everyone wants PSU in then
Sling orange offers a daily pass for $4.99 and it includes ESPN 2 for the finals
That's the thing. Do the national duals really grow the sport?? As CS said, creating an event is great but does it really serve the purpose they claim it does??
I agree with the idea that the current championship tournament is better at growing the sport. National duals automatically limit the exposure to 16 teams. That's telling the other 60 or so D1 programs they're not important enough to play with the big boys. I think it's fun to follow a wrester from Edinboro, for example, and see how far he goes in the tournament. If he earns All-American honors, it's good for him and the Edinboro program. In a national duals format, neither he nor Edinboro would get a mention.
That would still happen at the NCAA tournament though the individual tournament would remain the same it would just be an individual tournament and AAs still given but with no team champion.
Maybe, but the team aspect is also a big draw for the tournament. Take that away and wouldn't have the same appeal.
When did Cael say that or even hint at that? He DID NOT so crawl back under your rodk.
I don't believe they grow the sport at all.
I don't think Tom really does either. But he's pouty and so that's the catch-all pout.
Cael did all of those teams a favor.. Nobody wants to see their team get dominated, which is what would happen if PSU attended. However, now there are four or five teams that might have a chance to actually win the NATIONAL DUALS. Elsewise, all of them would have left disappointed.
That was just Ryan being Ryan. It is something he can't help. If an articulated dumbed assed statement is needed for an occasion, Ryan is an obvious first choice.
With my Ryan take aside, it is still not an outrageous statement. Penn State's absence is very noticeable, and the reason is Cael did not believe attending was in Penn State's interest. At the end of the day, what is best for Penn State wrestling is waaay more important than Tom Ryan's feelings.
I guarantee the staff has made fun of Tom and his whiney assed ramblings, in private of course but they have collectively laughed out loud at his verbal silliness.
so being number 1 in the country isn't growing the sport?they wrestle in the best conference in the country let the other teams wrestle for 2nd no one is beating them this yr!!if they went people would complain that they win all the time!
Tom Ryan is just being a puppet for Moyer and the NWCA they all want a dual championship. Which is fine but not at the expense of changing the best event we have all year. Is the team race for 1st exciting lately no but the battle for 2nd is. The team race at NCAAs makes the event matter to fan bases. Fan bases aren't really into the "individual" as much as they are the team
In a way, I was thinking DT would counter Ryan's remark somehow (like stating the obvious).... but he didn't and was probably an unrealistic thought
Wisdom has been chasing guys like Ryan and Manning, but they’ve always been faster.
DT is glad he said it
You nailed it, Corby. The idea of “National Duals” would disappear if not for Moyer/NWCA pushing it. It wouldn’t surprise me if they have Cael-faced dartboards throughout the NWCA offices. NWCA is located around the Harrisburg area, yet in spite of the short drive to State College, (at least up until a few years ago) Moyer had never been to a Penn State home dual meet during Cael’s tenure. Imagine that your organization’s goal is to promote, build, and support wrestling in the USA but you refuse to attend a dual meet at the top school in the country who is doing everything you’re organization is trying to do. PSU has been selling out for 15 years; their exciting style engages existing fans and brings new ones to the table; and their “system” is changing the landscape of US wrestling. But Cael wont indulge Moyer’s pet project , so it’s become “us” vs “them”.
in Ryan and Koll’s defense, I think they very genuinely want to grow the sport and believe in the NWCA’s mission. I think Cael wants to grow the sport, too, he just has different ideas on how to do it. For Moyer, the path forward is for schools/coaches to support the NWCA and they will do all the leg work to generate media and financial support and success will follow. For Cael, it’s develop your own wrestlers and put a great product on the mat - fans, media, and championships will follow.
Real world example may be the difference between big government vs small, local government. Personally, I prefer Cael’s approach.
You nailed it as well. And you only matter to the NWCA if you attend the convention . It's another wrestling good ole boy network just like USAw
Correct- Its NWCA boys club here. Make Duals an official NCAA Championship and Cael will absolutely plan and show up for that trophy. So I have no issue with PSU missing this one.
But for the record IMO with PSU talent & depth at this point- Cael could have sent a couple of starters filled in with the rest backups and made a deep serious run at it. All while resting U23 guys or whomever he deemed didn't need to go- again no issue with that. That would have been more fun for the sport in that regards versus steam rolling everyone.
Id like to hear Cael answer why he couldn't have sent out that team or if he even thought about it.
I mean this board does brag about your back ups could beat everyone so why not right? Lets see it
But for the record IMO with PSU talent & depth at this point- Cael could have sent a couple of starters filled in with the rest backups and made a deep serious run at it. All while resting U23 guys or whomever he deemed didn't need to go- again no issue with that. That would have been more fun for the sport in that regards versus steam rolling everyone.
Id like to hear Cael answer why he couldn't have sent out that team or if he even thought about it.
I mean this board does brag about your back ups could beat everyone so why not right? Lets see it
It’s going to take awhile for (some) people to accept that he’s not our friend right now.
DT knows Cael doesn't need anybody coming to his rescue. Besides, I think David is disappointed Cael didn't come nor agree to a home and away.
Kasak, Davis, and Ono all would not be able to compete without burning their RSs. Now if Blaze & PJ were RSing, and Nagao had that Olympic RS that is applicable to aNy YEar hE wANts that was mentioned in the past - you may have a point.
Give Penn State a competition waiver where this one doesn't count. The man isn't going to use 1 or more competition dates just to intentionally send his backups. Just an opinion, but kind of dumbassed to suggest that makes any sense.
He was referring to Tan Tom’s remarks, not Cael’s.
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It's actually a bit humorous and ironic.
It's no longer your father's 9.9 scholy model. Up to 30+NIL+the Portal have changed the game.
Cael's decade long strategy was to recruit and develop 3-6 guys focused on winning national championships both team and individual, but it came at the cost of having 2-3 real weak spots on the roster.
So from a duals POV a team like Ohio State or Iowa (Minnesota, Az State) that was more uniformly solid top to bottom could beat us in a dual, sometimes injury aided. We were solid but definitely had a few instances when stacked up against just the right team, there was a chance ...
Now we have 8 maybe more, finalists caliber kids, 10 AA candidates and zero true gaps in the lineup.
Tom and TnT can gripe all they want but today's PSU teams ain't losing any duals anytime soon. That ship has sailed.
Nebraska, Iowa, Ohio State, and soon Oky State and VT will all have teams solid top to bottom, but not on PSUs 'elite' level.
Maybe they are just hoping to lure us in for the injury potential this event carries with it?
It's no longer your father's 9.9 scholy model. Up to 30+NIL+the Portal have changed the game.
Cael's decade long strategy was to recruit and develop 3-6 guys focused on winning national championships both team and individual, but it came at the cost of having 2-3 real weak spots on the roster.
So from a duals POV a team like Ohio State or Iowa (Minnesota, Az State) that was more uniformly solid top to bottom could beat us in a dual, sometimes injury aided. We were solid but definitely had a few instances when stacked up against just the right team, there was a chance ...
Now we have 8 maybe more, finalists caliber kids, 10 AA candidates and zero true gaps in the lineup.
Tom and TnT can gripe all they want but today's PSU teams ain't losing any duals anytime soon. That ship has sailed.
Nebraska, Iowa, Ohio State, and soon Oky State and VT will all have teams solid top to bottom, but not on PSUs 'elite' level.
Maybe they are just hoping to lure us in for the injury potential this event carries with it?
It would be 1 competition date and Penn st isn't using all the dates so that could've happened. No coach is gonna enter an event like that and enter a team of backups .
Many reasons they didn't go. The fact they want to use it as the actual team national champion down the road and eliminate the team champ in March. The date and the location. Next year u23 is Oct 12-18 in Vegas and I expect the date of the duals to move into December. So if they're ever gonna go it would be next year.
Good call on this. I've been meaning to look up when U23s are next year. But yeah, that makes sense.
With everyone crying and the chance they may wrestle Oklahoma St (not because hes afraid of losing ) I say it doesn't happen. Iowa is going because 200k is on the line . Not because it "grows the sport" Iowa will definitely stop going once they start the we want to get rid of the team champs in March conversations start happening. Cael and Tom have been against that happening for years