Kind of apples to oranges with that comparison between the individual tournament and the dual tournament
National Duals should determine team champ
- Thread starter VakAttack
- Start date
It doesn't really happen every year. I can only think of it happening in 2018, waiting in the finals Bo nickal pin Miles Martin. That clinched the title for PSU if he had lost a Martin Ohio State would've won that team tournament. So it essentially came down to one match.
I take off every year to watch the tourney . I wouldn't do that for duals. The tourney has so many more moving parts that make it interesting. How will your restless place? Where does the team fall on the team race?
I love the Individual Tournament as much as you and probably more. It is undeniably the toughest tournament in any style of wrestling. My love would STAY that way if a National Duals Tournament decided the Team Titles. I am not just spinning wheels with nothing to back it up. MHSAA has been doing it for quite some time and I would argue that both tournaments are incredible, but the Dual Tournament has a team element to it that goes on throughout the entire event, while the Individual Tournament has sporadic moments when certain teams have certain wrestlers go at certain times. I want BOTH tournaments, I just think duals are so much more entertaining and much easier to watch. I also think it puts the ENTIRE team up against another ENTIRE team. I know it is an individual sport in that it is only 1 on 1 each time. But, the team aspect is so much more visible and even palpable in a dual format..
Mind you, I get that the logistics on a national scale make running a tournament the same as Michigan much more difficult. But, it is absolutely possible. Much like Districts, Regionals and then State, you absolutely could have teams gather in regions to minimize the distance traveled and make it so it is part of the normal season match load...
Would you mind re-phrasing those questions in a way that I may actually be able to answer them? Restless? Where does what team fall in what team race?
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While I don’t disagree with your choice, your reasoning is a little flawed.
- A great wrestler could go undefeated in the individual tourney and still not get a team championship. A wrestler that won ½ of his matches can still be a 4x champ by crowning the team off of the individual tourney.
- You could say the same thing the other way. If you had two great wrestlers who pinned their way through the individual tournament but had no other teammates, does that make a better “team” than the other school who had all 10 finish 7th and 8th in the individual tourney? Just because the second team didn’t have an outstanding individual doesn’t make it a less impressive team. Why should the two wrestlers on the first team that could be 4x individuals get to be 4x teams also? Why should the 10 AAs on the second team be considered less of a great team just because they didn’t have one outstanding individual?
In high school my senior year, I think we were like 7-6 in duals, and many had to wrestle up 1,2,3 weights to get that record. Yet we got 4th at state (and would have easily gotten 3rd without some bad luck). I considered us very far from the 4th best "team".
Either way is flawed, but as long as Penn State would clearly finish 1st either way, its probably moot until someone gets a little closer to challenge them.
Freshman year of college I was pre-med and took the requisite chemistry class. In high school I got an A in chemistry so I figured "no big deal". The professor had other views. He decided to make the tests impossibly hard, but to grade them on a curve. On the first test I got a 19 out of 100. That was good enough for a B. Thank god for the curve, right? There was one guy who got a 99. Let's call him Dr. Jim, MD.
If they had made the test at the same level of difficulty as my high school class I would have probably gotten a score in the high 80s. Dr. Jim would have gotten 100. Either way, 19 with a curve or 85 with an easy test, it would have been a B for me and an A for Dr. Jim. But by forcing the spread between my score and Dr. Jim's score to be very wide, I was disabused of any notion that I was anywhere near being in Dr. Jim's league.
This is what I prefer about the individual tournament over the dual tournament. In a dual the scores are more compressed. You get things like Penn State beating Ohio State because Nevills "only" lost by a little to Snyder. I grant the scoring is easier to understand in a dual and that made for some high drama, and that high drama is likely to happen more often in a dual format than an individual tournament format, but I still prefer the individual tournament format because I think it delivers a truer message. Like the one my chemistry professor delivered in no uncertain terms.
And while I am a doctor of love, the world has that chemistry professor to thank that there is one less crappy medical professional in the world.
If they had made the test at the same level of difficulty as my high school class I would have probably gotten a score in the high 80s. Dr. Jim would have gotten 100. Either way, 19 with a curve or 85 with an easy test, it would have been a B for me and an A for Dr. Jim. But by forcing the spread between my score and Dr. Jim's score to be very wide, I was disabused of any notion that I was anywhere near being in Dr. Jim's league.
This is what I prefer about the individual tournament over the dual tournament. In a dual the scores are more compressed. You get things like Penn State beating Ohio State because Nevills "only" lost by a little to Snyder. I grant the scoring is easier to understand in a dual and that made for some high drama, and that high drama is likely to happen more often in a dual format than an individual tournament format, but I still prefer the individual tournament format because I think it delivers a truer message. Like the one my chemistry professor delivered in no uncertain terms.
And while I am a doctor of love, the world has that chemistry professor to thank that there is one less crappy medical professional in the world.
Cheer up. With grade inflation today, you'd have rec'd an A+++. You're getting better with age
Interesting example. I think the score duals being compressed could lend to the argument of the dual being more “team” focused.
I get what you are saying about the spread and the chemistry example, and it has some merit.
I guess it depends on how much you think an individual should stand out as part of the team. Again, give me Messenbrink, Duke, Barr, and 7 high school kids versus a team that has 10 guys that get 7th, and I probably win the individual tournament team title. The viewpoint is which is the better “team”?
I think scores in duals can get compressed because strategy is different because in some ways the wrestler wrestles more for the team in a dual than the individual tourney.
If Nevills is down by 6 to Snyder in the individual tournament, he might try something crazy to win…primarily for himself at that point. If he is down by 6 in the dual, and that would win the dual for Penn State, I doubt he does something crazy if it is likely he could lose by 8 and lose the dual.
FWIW, I feel your pain on chemistry. I had a college upper-level stats class (that ironic to the name had more proofs/theory work than actual hard statistics) where the A-B-C went 65-50-35. I’m not sure how much I learned when I only got 60% of the stuff correct. So I can't even imagine what the benefit would be if you are pre-med but kudos to Dr. Jim.
Not irrational - it simply emphasizes a team event rather than a series of individual events. And duals are far more exciting than a multi-day individual tournament.
Other sports also don't involve every team in the country, and they are arguably a lot more exciting - from a fan perspective - than wrestling's tournament.
I think this comes down to whether wrestling is a team sport or an individual sport. It's easy to see the conflict. But in the end, team sports are more appealing to fans and more exciting to watch.
Exactly. Let's just keep doing exactly what we have been doing and THAT will increase viewership.
Vak, they moved the NCAA's from on campus and mandated it be off campus in bigger arenas. They're even moving to a football stadium with 40k seats to test it. The demand for tickets is so great that everyone has been b*tching the last few years about rising prices. Suites are impossible to secure.
it's growing.
you think there would be that same interest or demand for duals? i don't. and i wouldn't spend a second thinking about risking it.
we just had iowa-ohio state wrestle in the finals of national duals and there were 3 people in the stands. not even the people that came for the event went to the finals.
stop entertaining the idea of messing with the format of the greatest event in wresting on the globe because you don't like the idea of a forgone conclusion in the team race.
it's growing.
you think there would be that same interest or demand for duals? i don't. and i wouldn't spend a second thinking about risking it.
we just had iowa-ohio state wrestle in the finals of national duals and there were 3 people in the stands. not even the people that came for the event went to the finals.
stop entertaining the idea of messing with the format of the greatest event in wresting on the globe because you don't like the idea of a forgone conclusion in the team race.
Exactly, they are all mistaking what they want to happen as fans for "growing the sport".
I checked on the price of suites the last two years, it's outrageous. I could've easily split it with some guys back in a day stay in Philadelphia in 2011? These days oh hell no.
The national duals did not have the numbers. You confusing your desire to see more wrestling with something that will grow a sport. You're dead wrong.
It's very easy. you want more wrestling and see a maybe an easier path to a title. It's not changing anytime soon, fanboys like the idea, casual sports fans won't watch, and nothing will change.
Yes, never mind. An event at the beginning of the season without the best team where nothing is on the line other than money didn't immediately draw more than the NCAA championships. It's over. Lets just keep doing what we've done forever, and THAT will grow the sport.
The NWSL on ESPN saw a
61%
increase in viewership for the 2025 regular season, averaging
228,000
viewers compared to
141,000
in 2024.
Women's soccer outdrew the duals.
61%
increase in viewership for the 2025 regular season, averaging
228,000
viewers compared to
141,000
in 2024.
Women's soccer outdrew the duals.
The sport will not grow much, ever. It is a niche sport.
Gable started coaching fifty years ago at Iowa. With the big ten network and other options we now have increased access to the sport but it will never grow to a point where it supplants the major sports.
it is what it is. It a family friends former participant sport with some fandom due to school affiliation.
it will never change because of it could, it would have happened already.
Gable started coaching fifty years ago at Iowa. With the big ten network and other options we now have increased access to the sport but it will never grow to a point where it supplants the major sports.
it is what it is. It a family friends former participant sport with some fandom due to school affiliation.
it will never change because of it could, it would have happened already.
Sorry, I voice texted , it should have been how will the rest place? All the moving parts make it more interesting to me than a regular meet.
Dual meets are fine in the regular season but I really enjoy the conference and national tournaments .
Yep.
- Average viewership: ESPN telecasts of the American Cornhole League have averaged just over 50,000 viewers.
- Major event draw: The ACL World Championship Pro Singles Finals drew a unique reach of 1.04 million viewers, making it one of the top-rated programs on ESPN's "The Ocho
Cornhole championships have app five times the viewership that the national dual championships had.
- However the average big ten network match gets app 150 k, slightly less than the national duals.
Not to mention some teams getting in on a freaking lottery
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At least use some good examples. How about Penn State attend and have ESPN promote it? See what the numbers are after 2 or 3 years instead of comparing numbers for a tournament just thrown together with very little media push, and missing the best team with a large fan base.
When they don’t want it to work, why would you think they would look any deeper?
I’d love to see a poll of college wrestlers and coaches on this subject. I enjoy competitive dual meets, but I take time off work to watch every round of the NCAA championship. I believe this is the most popular wrestling event in the world and it would be foolish to need that up. Even Ono wants in
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if you want the team aspect to matter then there should be conference champion teams wrestling for the dual title. That would mean later in the season which conflicts with current scheduling. It would seem that more then just a rich booster and a couple of coaches will need to be involved to make this happen. Maybe move the individual tournament a month later and have the team championship in late February or early March. Just spit balling. But picking teams from prior years performance makes no sense for determining this years best team its asinine at best