just took a look at the volleyball brackets which were set by the Maxpreps computer rankings; two 20+ win teams and no losses were trumped by a 17-1 CSD team (#1 seed) and the 2 teams (Graystone & Murphy) were the 4th & 5th seeds....can only imagine come football seeding time...
New playoff system...
- Thread starter bareman
- Start date
From the looks of the volleyball brackets, probably going to be a lot of head scratching.
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Some head scratching I'm sure, but in the end if CSD team is actually better then it makes sense. Now I know we are going based on Maxpreps and we all have our opinion of them. But lets think about it this way, if CSD lost to the best 4A team in the state making them 17-1, and Murphy only played average 1A teams, should we really punish CSD? Not saying any of that happened, just posting a different perspective of the playoff system.
I think the system was developed this way to not punish the schools that go out and play a bigger or better team.
The only loss for CSD was to Charlotte Catholic. CC will probably do well in the 3A playoffs.
Graystone has thoroughly handled their opposition but they played one 2A school, West Stanly, and the rest were 1A schools.
Curious to see what the third round and on looks like. May find that CSD was not as good as Murphy or GSD.
The complaint for years in football was team's that played weak non conference schedules and sometimes coming from a weak conference being seeded over teams that played much tougher competition. I like the idea of rewarding a team for a tough schedule. Should Shelby be penalized for losing to South Pointe or a strong Crest team in non conference when another 2A school is playing mediocre 2A teams non conference? This will take need to evolve and continue to be tweaked but changes were needed.
Graystone has thoroughly handled their opposition but they played one 2A school, West Stanly, and the rest were 1A schools.
Curious to see what the third round and on looks like. May find that CSD was not as good as Murphy or GSD.
The complaint for years in football was team's that played weak non conference schedules and sometimes coming from a weak conference being seeded over teams that played much tougher competition. I like the idea of rewarding a team for a tough schedule. Should Shelby be penalized for losing to South Pointe or a strong Crest team in non conference when another 2A school is playing mediocre 2A teams non conference? This will take need to evolve and continue to be tweaked but changes were needed.
in ANY system a 20 win team should never be trumped by a team w/less wins and a loss!! less is apparently more in this system and somehow, someway past history of the teams involved has come into play (tradition of teams) ; would truly hate to be the receptionist at NCHSAA office over the next few weeks...IMO this gets changed BIG TIME
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Barman, so if a 1A team (we'll call them Team A) plays in a horrible conference and plays a week non-conference schedule and they go 11-0 and MA plays in a tough conference and tough non-conference and their only loss was to a powerful 4A team, you would be okay with Team A being seeded above MA?
This is not directed as these teams as I do not know anything about the quality of girls volleyball but rewarding teams that play weak schedules has been an issue for years. It was an issue in the pre subdivided era when 32 teams made the playoffs with predetermined slots. It has been an issue in seeding for years.
Every year in the basketball playoffs teams with multiple losses crush higher seeds with very few losses and sometimes undefeated squads. Some teams schedule very tough non conference games and play in holiday tournaments that loaded up where they lose a few games. This will actually help some higher seeds as they are not put in a very early round game with a powerhouse that went out and challenged themselves and was dropped to a lower seed due to a record that is not reflective of the team they are really are.
If Shelby ends the regular season with only one loss (Rock Hill South Pointe) they basically fit this scenario.
Not bareman but yep.
Strength of schedule has a place, for polls and to get your team ready for playoffs. But like bareman said 20-0 still better for seeding than 19-1.
My opinion may or may not be based in my total dislike for NCHSAA's relationship with Maxpreps.
the nchsaa set these conferences so that can never be held against any team....you play whoever they say you play....schools every realignment argue this....lets use Murphy: far SW corner of the state..how many power teams you think are in that area they can easily get to? Georgia...Asheville is 2 hours....so there in lies a problem for them to get those "quality wins" you and others speak of....not knocking CSD one bit...the thing is teams that created a schedule...ran the gauntlet so to speak, were penalized due to what is basically the disagreement of who they played or didn't play....20 wins is 20 wins and carries a lot of weight....this system is in for this year I understand that but it will change and this time other sports will have a say
Let Murphy play Charlotte Catholic and CSD play Smokey Mountain. I feel very confident the records will be reversed. Catholic has two 3A losses (Cox Mill that played a national schedule and one loss Marvin Ridge which they split with). Smokey Mountain, the only non 1A school Murphy played, is 8-14.
I think the big issue people have with the strength of schedule is that some teams can't help who they schedule non-conference. CSD is at a bigger advantage due to their location so it is easier for them to schedule tougher opponents than someone like Murphy. The other issue is with MaxPreps, no one really knows what goes into their SOS formula.
My issue is they rankings are kept secret. Yeah those post rankings on Maxpreps but it states those rankings are not the ones used for playoffs. If I was a coach I'd like to have updated rankings so I know where my team stood in the closing weeks
Agreed - exactly HOW does MaxPreps determine their rankings? What's the forumula? East Surry's volleyball team has only lost 2 matches the entire year, both to North Surry in 5 sets (North happens to be the #2 ranked team in the state in 2A). They have 3-0 wins over 4A East Forsyth (twice), 4A West Forsyth, 3A North Forsyth (twice), 2A North Davidson, 2A Wilkes Central...yet according to MaxPreps East Surry's volleyball team has a NEGATIVE strength of schedule and is ranked 8th overall in 1A. There are 2 other 2 loss teams, a 3 loss team, and a 4 loss team ahead of them. If there were transparency regarding the ranking formula, I think it would be easier to accept.
That is certainly true. But CS-D can play larger schools easily and be homein time for supper. Murphy has to drive over an hour to find even mediocre 2A schools. So, in essence, and not referring specifically to this season, it doesn't matter how good you are if you are Murphy or Hayesville or another remote school, you could be the best team in the abstract but it would still be impossible to actually get a top seed because you can't realistically play the schedule needed.
Doesnt matter --- if you are good enuff to be the champ you should be able to beat whoever , whereever , whenever you play. I will take the East Surry against any team in the west. Only lost 1 set all year outside of two losses to North Surry. They are extremley young as well .
I think a lot of playoff success is matchups, rest, getting to play at home--things that are rewards for people who earn higher seeds. And it is basically impossible for a mountain team to earn them under this system.
NCHSAA just coming apart at all their seams and getting the monkey off their back thinking they can't be blamed for this screw up ! !
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I bet you'll see 6-5 teams NOT getting in because of weak schedules ... Also, if an unbeaten team can't get a #1 seed in the volleyball playoffs, then there's no telling what the HS football playoff brackets will look like. I bet there will be some angry football coaches when the football playoff brackets are announced on November 4. There's still just a bit of football left in the regular season.
Let's go back to seeding only off record and drawing straws for ties. Let's also do predetermined playoff slot per conference.
Coaches would love to know how the ranking is established BUT if we are going to use it, use it completely. For years I have had issues with the seed lines. The number 1s / 2s in some leagues have no business with others. There is a high seed overall in VB bc they won the league. They would be in 4th or 5th place in the other nearby league. Split leagues also calls issues, if your 5-17 you don't deserve to be on 1 line.
It also seems that a team that plays in a conference that is the only team that plays that sport in that conference will get an auto bid. And I despise the fact that a 1A team in a split conference can finish 4th in their conference but miss tye playoffs due to the 48 teams thing but a 2a team can finish behind them and make it. Also a team that's like 6th or 7th in a split conference doesnt deserve an auto bid. A team should have to finish in the top 4 of a conference to get the auto bid imo. Also just do away with split conferences!!!
As another post said, the predetermined is no good either.
I like rewarding teams who play good teams throughout the year.
If a team is has won a lot but hasn't played anyone, they'l still be in due to high finish in the conference.
Also, the bottom line is you have to beat good teams to win the whole thing in any sport at some point.
I like the new system and I think once more brackets are made, by and large, you'll see that the match ups will be reflective of the seeding.
With all that said, I do think travel should be reduced some by doing a West, Midwest, Mideast, and East pod.
Play within the pod.
Then West plays mid west and east plays mid east.
I like rewarding teams who play good teams throughout the year.
If a team is has won a lot but hasn't played anyone, they'l still be in due to high finish in the conference.
Also, the bottom line is you have to beat good teams to win the whole thing in any sport at some point.
I like the new system and I think once more brackets are made, by and large, you'll see that the match ups will be reflective of the seeding.
With all that said, I do think travel should be reduced some by doing a West, Midwest, Mideast, and East pod.
Play within the pod.
Then West plays mid west and east plays mid east.
The pods are terrible as well. Especially 1A. The western teams end up playing a Smoky mountain conference tourney in the playoffs. Plus seeing the same teams every year in the playoffs gets old after a while. The new system can be good but transparency is needed.
Certainly understand that as well.
I just think for the first round, traveling more than 3 hours is absurd.
perhaps play within pod for first round, then re seed for the rest of the playoffs.
I would love to travel 3+ hrs to play a different team. I really liked it when Lakewood was put in the West. I enjoyed traveling to Cherokee in 2008 ( I think) it was... and Elkin in the 2006. Albemarle, south stanley. I would love to be out west again and play Swain, Murphy, Robbinsville, Mics, West Montgomery. I love to see football from other parts of the state
I think the pods would be ok in other sports to cut down on travel since many games in the playoffs including the first round are usually on a school night. Another issue with pods is sometimes you end up with top teams in the same pod, leaving one pod as a cupcake for someone. There will never be a perfect way to do it. But the state must provide transparency in the process.
In football pods are not that big a deal since games are only once a week. The cost does occasionally get unreasonable. Two years in a row Hayesville had to travel to Princeton and hobbton. At hobbton they spent the night, at Princeton they did a down and back that was basically a 24-25 hour trip. Both were expensive trips for a 1A.
Pods are a must for sports like volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball. These sports play 2 or 3 times a week. Hugh waste of class time and a tremendous advantage to the home teams.
Pods are a must for sports like volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball. These sports play 2 or 3 times a week. Hugh waste of class time and a tremendous advantage to the home teams.
Pods are horrible. It leads to weaker teams advancing, simply due to geographical location. The home teams/higher ranked teams SHOULD have an advantage. That's the reward for having a solid season. We also are talking about potential long trips one time per year. It's an experience kids will remember for the rest of their lives.
See to a certain point I agree with you. Weaker teams may advance in the pod system.
However at many 1A or smaller 2A schools where athletes play several sports you are not talking about long trips one time per year. Especially if HS is located in center of state where teams go east or west depending on ADMs of schools that make the playoffs in that particular sport.
As I have posted before my son, who has played all 3 major sports up until this his senior year, has traveled 4.5 hours one way for baseball on a Tuesday then the next fall/winter a combined 5.5 hours one way for football on a Friday and basketball on a Tuesday again. In the spring of his junior year baseball team hosted a game where visitors traveled 2.5 hours one way before AP exams that followed next day (Wednesday). Other team's parents were not happy.
Football travel is not that big a deal, except for cost of transportation, because they are played on Fridays. Other sports I think should be treated differently if games are to be played during the week.
First off the NCHSAA screwed up with the whole 20 30 30 20 to classify schools. There are 409 schools in the state. There are 101 1a schools in this new realignment which is not 20%, the number should be 81-82. They took out all non football playing schools and did the split then put those schools back in. Why does the state determine a whole athletic programs classification based on football, they play all those other sports that have playoffs. For all other sports in this scenario you can have a school with 225 students playing a school with 650. Which brings me to my next point, why does the state not sub divide all sports. They say their goal is to level the playing field but how is this fair? again going back to my 225 school versus a 650 school. same number of kids to choose from for baseball as there was for football but yet football gets subdivided. Now the only problem with subdividing is the charter schools, they need to have their own playoffs, they make up approx 30% of 1a schools which is plenty to have their own playoffs especially when you add in the bigger charter schools in other classifications. For the state to be so worried about money they sure are missing out on a lot by not doing this, 8 public school state championships and 1 charter school state champion. This would level the playing field and have teams that are close in adm numbers have a chance to compete with schools more like them.
As for the new playoffs and max preps rankings, they are a joke, when teams who have lost head to head and have a worse record are above the team that beat them its a joke! And why are we having byes in the playoffs put 8 more teams back in, again the state will lose money this year by reducing teams so i dont understand that. Conference champs should not be guaranteed anything but a spot in the playoffs not a high seed or a (bye). Teams that are not in the top 50 on maxpreps rankings will get a bye if the projections hold. I truly believe that the NCHSAA has absolutely butchered the whole playoff and realignment for the next 5 years.
As for the new playoffs and max preps rankings, they are a joke, when teams who have lost head to head and have a worse record are above the team that beat them its a joke! And why are we having byes in the playoffs put 8 more teams back in, again the state will lose money this year by reducing teams so i dont understand that. Conference champs should not be guaranteed anything but a spot in the playoffs not a high seed or a (bye). Teams that are not in the top 50 on maxpreps rankings will get a bye if the projections hold. I truly believe that the NCHSAA has absolutely butchered the whole playoff and realignment for the next 5 years.