NFL Draft Thread

krazykats

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Krazy why quit on your NFL team? The Loins have very good and young players. They were in the playoffs in 2014.

Because they are just incapable of anything consistently except bad decisions. I've now watched 2 era's where the best player we have had retired early because those idiots just can't get it right. Not to mention the mismanagement of Suh and Fairley, man what a bunch of dopes!

I figure if they can quit so easy then F it! Not like I'm hopping on a great team bandwagon, but I'll grow with Tennessee and it's coming along nicely already.
 

krazykats

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Right, and you touched on my issue the best player in 2 era's not just 1.

Barry was the only reason I became a Lions fan.
 

Big_Blue79

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Because they are just incapable of anything consistently except bad decisions. I've now watched 2 era's where the best player we have had retired early because those idiots just can't get it right. Not to mention the mismanagement of Suh and Fairley, man what a bunch of dopes!

I figure if they can quit so easy then F it! Not like I'm hopping on a great team bandwagon, but I'll grow with Tennessee and it's coming along nicely already.

Feel bad for Lions fans. Got kinda screwed with the rookie scales, which led to inflated deals/salaries for Stafford, Johnson, and Suh. What a crappy way to get "screwed" - good young talent (or meh talent with Stafford) with ridiculous contracts because of the rookie pay scale. Then once the new pay scale hits picking later in the first.
 

krazykats

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You're a fair-weather fan. Congratulations.

Fine by me, over 20 years I spent following them hoping they could surround Barry and he quit, and then when I was almost done with them they took Rogers and Calvin in back to back drafts and I was stoked.......no way in hell they could mess that up.......

F them!

Plus now I can go to games and enjoy a nice city somewhat close to me.
 

BlueRaider22

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Quick? He has coached 22 years and has a runner up and one other final four. 12 of his 22 years he has 6-8 wins, including all 4 with the Rams. His best attribute is convincing owners he is a year or two away. And his style of stout D and running game is archaic in the NFL now. He promoted his TE coach to be OC this year. They have the worst QB/WR combo in the league after all those picks from the Redskins, not from bad luck. Plus I hate the porn stache.

You need to do more research. You need to do research as to "why" he's generally been a .500 coach. First, some historical reference.

In general if a head coach wins at a percentage of >.600 (and has a fair length career) that they are considered coaching legends. Even guys like Shula won .676 of the time. Fisher is at .521. That may sound low but out of head coaches who have 50 wins or more he's 65th of ALL TIME. Guys like Coughlin, Vermeil, Gruden, Billick, Jimmy Johnson, Kubiak, Shell, Pete Carroll, Wade Phillips, Marvin Lewis, Green, Ditka, Mora, Fox, Shanahan, Reeves, Parcels.....are all within a few tenths (+/-) win percentage of Fisher.

What you will also notice is there are some coaches in this list who have won SB's while Fisher has not. Of those, who was their QB and/or who was the organization they were with? Would Johnson have won 2 SB's without Aikman/Smith?.....and why was he unsuccessful in Miami? Would Carroll have won without Russell/Lynch? Shanahan without Davis/Elway?

And what organization are they with? Belichick was fired from a miserable term in Cleveland.....before he was hired in NE. This matters because in the NFL, the coaches don't shop for the groceries. For example, in college the coaches choose the player, recruit them, then coach them. In the NFL, the coaches are given players and forced to do the best. The best organizations will work together and make great rosters.

Now, if you look at Fisher's seasons more closely. When he has a good roster and good QB play, he makes playoff runs. When he doesn't have those things he's good enough to get to get 7-9 wins. Now, I can tell you without a doubt that the front office in Tennessee wasn't stellar about getting Fisher what he needed. McNair was probably one of the most WR starved QB's during the 2000's. And Fisher has also had rejects like Vince Young forced on him by ownership.

Now, on to the Rams. They have built a really nice defense but there's no question that they are QB/WR starved.

None of this means Fisher is Hall of Fame walking, but it does mean he's a really good coach who really hasn't been put in the best position to succeed. What you have seen the last few yrs in St Louis is not a result of poor coaching. It's a result of good coaching and so-so roster talent.
 

BlueRaider22

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Conklin makes the offense so much better day 1 with an actual running game, and then focus on defense. If they gamble on Jaylon Smith in the 3rd I'll be stoked on a 2 year plan considering the shore up the secondary this year like we are projected too!

I agree. With the "exotic smashmouth" offense they are installing I wouldn't be surprised if the Titans favor Conklin or Decker over Stanley due to their run blocking ability. They could get by with Ifedi in the 2nd rd if they need to.

The 2ndary does need work. So far I think they've made a good step in the right direction. Free agents McCain and Blake aren't program changers at CB, but they are better fits than Sensabaugh was....and given that they both were LeBeau's Steelers, they were chosen for a reason. Johnson is also a better pass coverage safety than Griffin.

We had a borderline top 10 defense last yr. if we improve our offense and make a few nice moves in the draft and we likely will have a top 10 defense this coming yr.
 

qwesley

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None of this means Fisher is Hall of Fame walking, but it does mean he's a really good coach who really hasn't been put in the best position to succeed. What you have seen the last few yrs in St Louis is not a result of poor coaching. It's a result of good coaching and so-so roster talent.
I just pointed out the stats when you said he made a lot of deep runs. He is an okay coach, not a bum, but not great. I have "researched" watching him every game for 4 years. His near .500 record fits him perfectly.

Part of his agreement with the Rams is that he got to pick his GM and has a ton of roster input and the final say. There is no reason, again with all the picks they got from the Redskins, that their offensive side of the ball is so bad going into year 5. And now they have no high picks to go after a WR.

He brought Jared Cook (he has brought a bunch of former Titans and overpaid them) on a big deal who was a bum. He used a 1st and 2nd on Tavon Austin, a 5'7" WR plus a 3rd on his WV teammate. He used the 2nd pick in the whole draft on Greg Robinson (his son was coaching there) even though guy had no clue how to pass block. Used a top of 2nd pick on a WR (Quick) everyone else had as a 3-5th because he fell in love with his workout.

And their D really took off when Greg Willams came back.
 

BlueRaider22

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^Once again, Snead/Kroenke is building the roster....who's the QB? Certainly Fisher has some input, but what has been their approach to QB since Fisher's been there? You can't blame Fisher for the drafts....he's not in charge. Nor can you blame the price paid for guys like Sensabaugh and Cook. All Fisher says is, "I'd like player X." It's the GM's choice whether or not to bring them in and at what price.
 

Big_Blue79

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None of this means Fisher is Hall of Fame walking, but it does mean he's a really good coach who really hasn't been put in the best position to succeed. What you have seen the last few yrs in St Louis is not a result of poor coaching. It's a result of good coaching and so-so roster talent.

Why run 3 passes to Tavon Austin at or behind the line of scrimmage when you can run 6 passes to Tavon Austin at or behind the line of scrimmage. Fisher is probably a bit underrated now historically, but he's archaic and it looks like the game has passed him by a bit. He's had bad QB play, yes, and his offensive personnel has not been terrific, yes, but at some point that's on him to an extent. Consistently great teams now are great on offense, and they have great passing games. I don't see that ever happening under Jeff "3 yards and why is Eddie George still getting so many carries?" Fisher.
 

Big_Blue79

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And their D really took off when Greg Willams came back.

They also have one of the best D-lines in the league, with human wrecking ball Aaron Donald in the middle. Been trending up on D for a while (DVOA 12 -> 9 -> 7). Could argue they under perform a bit on D, even. I've had them in fantasy for a while because of that D-line (even before AD), with Long, Brockers, Quinn. But at least when they have a great D-line they brought in a guy that is known for reckless blitzing, exposing the soft(er) secondary.
 

BlueRaider22

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^consistently great teams have 3 things in common: Great front office, great coaching, and great QB/roster....all 3 exist symbiotically. Fisher is a good but not great coach. He has never had some good not great front offices. And he's only ever had a brief period of a really good roster.....his time with McNair.
 

krazykats

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How can you hate on Fisher? He operated under they worst owner possibly in the NFL. Plus he hasn't had close to a talent filled team in STL yet, not even close!
 

qwesley

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^Once again, Snead/Kroenke is building the roster....who's the QB? Certainly Fisher has some input, but what has been their approach to QB since Fisher's been there? You can't blame Fisher for the drafts....he's not in charge. Nor can you blame the price paid for guys like Sensabaugh and Cook. All Fisher says is, "I'd like player X." It's the GM's choice whether or not to bring them in and at what price.
Like I said, he essentially hired Snead and has final say and has been behind all the ex Titans. The bolded part is categorically untrue. He calls all the shots, well known.
 

qwesley

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How can you hate on Fisher? He operated under they worst owner possibly in the NFL. Plus he hasn't had close to a talent filled team in STL yet, not even close!
With the Rams he has one of the wealthiest owners and was handed the largest bounty of picks ever other than the Herschel trade and blew them. He hired Marty Schottenheimer's kid to run his offense even though he was terrible with the Jets. And when he left, rather than going out and getting an OC he has now promoted twice from within, guys that have never been a coordinator or even close. Good overall manager of team toughness, good defensive mind......terrible at talent evaluation and offensive vision.
 
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BlueRaider22

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Well, it has been documented a lot recently that Snead did all the work with the trade. As a matter of fact a recent article just came out that said that Snead and J-Rob actually hashed out the trade through secret meetings in a hotel bathroom. Fisher wasn't notified until a wk or two later. It was Fisher's idea to delay announcement due to Kobie. Wow, he sounds awefully "in charge" to me.

Also, during the end of his time with the Titans, Fisher came out multiple times and said that they need to solidify the future of the QB position....which they never did while he was there.....but he kept repeating it yr in/out. So, why would a guy who understands the importance of the QB position....and ultimately lost his job in part because of QB neglect......now neglect the position at his new job when he "has complete control?"
 

Big_Blue79

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How can you hate on Fisher? He operated under they worst owner possibly in the NFL. Plus he hasn't had close to a talent filled team in STL yet, not even close!

Best D-line in the league (or close to it). Decent LBs. Decent secondary. And Tavon "TD or 2 yards" Austin on O! But the offensive talent is better than it shows - a real innovator with that roster should be winning ~10 games/year. AMG forgot about Brian Schottenheimer. Dialed up his plays from Tecmo Super Bowl.
 

Big_Blue79

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Show me one coach that says they don't need a QB, or fails to understand the importance of the position. That's like saying Rob Ryan is a good DC because he says they have to get after the QB. "Guys, we need better QB play." "Yes, we all agree and know that." "Okay, thanks, just making sure." - Jeff Fisher, probably.
 

BlueRaider22

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Fisher blew the draft picks? Who's handing in the cards? Who's signing the checks? Who's headlines press conferences about the trade and personnel decisions? Whos doing all the talking? Sure, Fisher may have had good input on Snead's hiring.....that's not unheard of, but don't think for a second that Fisher's making the decisions here.
 

qwesley

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1.coaches are arrogant, Fisher extremely arrogant
2.he wasted 3 years blindly optimistic on Bradford and didn't cultivate a backup
3.he thinks defense first

He chose the Rams over the Dolphins due to control.
 

BlueRaider22

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Show me one coach that says they don't need a QB, or fails to understand the importance of the position. That's like saying Rob Ryan is a good DC because he says they have to get after the QB. "Guys, we need better QB play." "Yes, we all agree and know that." "Okay, thanks, just making sure." - Jeff Fisher, probably.

That's the point. If Fisher had complete control as qwesley is implying Fisher would've done something about it.
 

qwesley

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Fisher blew the draft picks? Who's handing in the cards? Who's signing the checks? Who's headlines press conferences about the trade and personnel decisions? Whos doing all the talking? Sure, Fisher may have had good input on Snead's hiring.....that's not unheard of, but don't think for a second that Fisher's making the decisions here.
I follow the Rams daily, you don't. Fisher is THE guy, he is tight with Kroenke. If you go google draft articles by Mike Silver (his media goto) it is all clear. Just funny to see a fan of another team act like an expert on another.
 

qwesley

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That's the point. If Fisher had complete control as qwesley is implying Fisher would've done something about it.
I have explained it, you just have some mancrush on his stache and refuse to hear it. I can point to 5-6 high picks they could have spent on a development QB behind Bradford but he got cute or focused all on D. He also ignored the OL for 2-3 years and then finally took 5 last year because it got so bad.
 

qwesley

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Show me one coach that says they don't need a QB, or fails to understand the importance of the position. That's like saying Rob Ryan is a good DC because he says they have to get after the QB. "Guys, we need better QB play." "Yes, we all agree and know that." "Okay, thanks, just making sure." - Jeff Fisher, probably.
Everyone knows it but many defensive guys don't have a vision and don't invest in the best minds and draft picks to make it happen. They end of going through the motions and end up with OC's like Brian Schottenheimer and QBs like Tyrod Taylor or Geno Smith or Sanchez.

It is an offensive league now.
 
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qwesley

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The answer is Belichick. They don't have another person as GM because Bill has complete control. If Fisher has 100% complete control, why is Snead employed?
Control is not making every decision. Control is direction and veto power. Damn you have a thing for the stache. Snead helps him, never said anything different.

So you follow the Rams every day?
 

BlueRaider22

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I follow the Rams daily, you don't. Fisher is THE guy, he is tight with Kroenke. If you go google draft articles by Mike Silver (his media goto) it is all clear. Just funny to see a fan of another team act like an expert on another.

This isn't a case where another fan wouldn't know anything. Surely I don't know the Rams like you do, but. Fisher was our coach for a long, long time. My depth of him likely far outweighs yours just based on the length of tenure.

By the way, when I Google as you requested I see "Snead/Fisher" everywhere.....used just like that with a backslash. I even went on to look at other media outlets trying to get even more information for this discussion. "Snead/Fisher" is listed everywhere. But with recent articles involving the draft trade, Snead is the headliner.
 

qwesley

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BTW, the Pats were better and deeper when they had Scott Pioli helping BB. Their drafting has been mediocre for years.
 
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qwesley

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But with recent articles involving the draft trade, Snead is the headliner.
Like I said, Snead is useful, he is a good negotiator. He got a good return for the RGIII pick....but he did both trades at Fisher's direction, there is zero doubt. He chose Snead because he is a young guy that would not power trip on him. This is silly.
 

qwesley

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My depth of him likely far outweighs yours just based on the length of tenure.
Interesting rationale, he coached longer for the Titans thus you know his role in decisions in his next job. You think perhaps, having Young forced on him by McNair made him negotiate more power in his next job? You think Fisher goes directly to Kroenke or does he go to Demoff or Snead when he wants something?
 

Big_Blue79

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Once again, who turns in the cards?

Story on ESPN in the last week:

Los Angeles Rams:Like many teams, the Rams prefer to say that all of their picks are a group consensus, but if it really comes down to it, coach Jeff Fisher has the final say. The Rams gave Fisher a five-year deal worth around $7 million a season in 2012, and with it, they gave him a lot of say in personnel matters. He was already in place when the team hired general manager Les Snead, and the two generally work together on building the roster. -- Nick Wagoner

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2016/st...all-32-teams-general-manager-coach-both#NFC W
 
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krazykats

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Once a roster is in place STL has done its best to overhaul but the pieces that were best in the draft didn't work. There are bad drafts and once money is obligated you have to give them a shot. That's why GMs and Coaches are fired all the time.

Also remember that your complaining about Tavon who was on fire and set to be the next little fastest dude out there but now that all those guys are dropping like flies because of concussions it is no longer the new trend.

Quick was hurt but looked solid last year, and I actually think the offense has more talent than you realize and a QB, not just someone filling the role, could potentially make STL the best team in the west this year.

I think your trolling at this point honestly so I'm done explaining to you why you are wrong.
 

BlueRaider22

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I'm just trying to figure out where your head is at. You've said he's a good coach....good enough to win 7-8 even while missing the #1 position on the field. Far exceeding those coaches who came in recent yrs before him. As said by you he's responsible for the personnel decisions, but yet developing a top defense and negotiating for what they feel is a franchise QB leads to want the team to tank so that Fisher can be fired? With Gurley, that defense, and Fisher coaching even an average NFL starter will get you double digit wins....but you purposely want him to fail?

Mularkey is our coach. His prior head coaching record is abysmal. His time as interim coach last yr was not all that inspiring. The odds of him being successful is not all that high, but I don't hope he fails....