No Improvement/No Heart/No Strength/No Coaching

[catfans5]

A couple of things which were pretty evident tonight:

1) No improvement. Players come to Northwestern not to get better. Tonight, we saw no improvement from Kopp, Beran, and Nance. Boo is really no better than last year. Our shooting is terrible. Absolutelty terrible. Improvement or player development comes from the coaching staff. The only player who seems to have improved was Young. So much for the coaching;

2) No heart. Rebounding is want and toughness. Boxing out and grabbing the ball is want and toughness. We have two 6 ft 10 players. Pitt out rebounded Nu by 15 boards. They had 17 offensive rebounds. A coach can impart this on his players. Spare me the argument on the need for athletes to rebound. The only person playing with heart was Young. When was the last time a NU player committed a hard foul? Heart and grit comes from the coaching staff. It does not exist;

3) No strength. NU is a physically weak team. There is no muscle definition on one player. The strength and conditioning coach should be fired. There is not a single player with any muscle mass. Nance should be strong as crap, but he is not. He let their point guard tie him up with little to no effort or fight. With strength comes toughness, but neither exist; and

4) Coaching. Idaho mentioned that we cannot get the ball in bounds or break a press. Nothing changed. Pure and simple coaching. I put up with years of Bill. With the pandemic, I am at home watching the games. Frankly, as a season ticketholder for 15 years, I saw nothing tonight that indicates any change or improvement. The games were empty last year. Based on what I saw tonight and not expecting any changes or developments, I hope I am wrong, no reason to go back.

 

[freewillie07]

A couple of things which were pretty evident tonight:

1) No improvement. Players come to Northwestern not to get better. Tonight, we saw no improvement from Kopp, Beran, and Nance. Boo is really no better than last year. Our shooting is terrible. Absolutelty terrible. Improvement or player development comes from the coaching staff. The only player who seems to have improved was Young. So much for the coaching;

2) No heart. Rebounding is want and toughness. Boxing out and grabbing the ball is want and toughness. We have two 6 ft 10 players. Pitt out rebounded Nu by 15 boards. They had 17 offensive rebounds. A coach can impart this on his players. Spare me the argument on the need for athletes to rebound. The only person playing with heart was Young. When was the last time a NU player committed a hard foul? Heart and grit comes from the coaching staff. It does not exist;

3) No strength. NU is a physically weak team. There is no muscle definition on one player. The strength and conditioning coach should be fired. There is not a single player with any muscle mass. Nance should be strong as crap, but he is not. He let their point guard tie him up with little to no effort or fight. With strength comes toughness, but neither exist; and

4) Coaching. Idaho mentioned that we cannot get the ball in bounds or break a press. Nothing changed. Pure and simple coaching. I put up with years of Bill. With the pandemic, I am at home watching the games. Frankly, as a season ticketholder for 15 years, I saw nothing tonight that indicates any change or improvement. The games were empty last year. Based on what I saw tonight and not expecting any changes or developments, I hope I am wrong, no reason to go back.

Well said on all counts.

 

[Catfanincolo]

Have to agree with Catfan. Gaines is the only one who looks like he spent any time in the weight room. ,
Maybe Young too. Overall we’re a very soft team playing in a very hard league.

 

[ThatadultfromHolland]

A couple of things which were pretty evident tonight:

1) No improvement. Players come to Northwestern not to get better. Tonight, we saw no improvement from Kopp, Beran, and Nance. Boo is really no better than last year. Our shooting is terrible. Absolutelty terrible. Improvement or player development comes from the coaching staff. The only player who seems to have improved was Young. So much for the coaching;

2) No heart. Rebounding is want and toughness. Boxing out and grabbing the ball is want and toughness. We have two 6 ft 10 players. Pitt out rebounded Nu by 15 boards. They had 17 offensive rebounds. A coach can impart this on his players. Spare me the argument on the need for athletes to rebound. The only person playing with heart was Young. When was the last time a NU player committed a hard foul? Heart and grit comes from the coaching staff. It does not exist;

3) No strength. NU is a physically weak team. There is no muscle definition on one player. The strength and conditioning coach should be fired. There is not a single player with any muscle mass. Nance should be strong as crap, but he is not. He let their point guard tie him up with little to no effort or fight. With strength comes toughness, but neither exist; and

4) Coaching. Idaho mentioned that we cannot get the ball in bounds or break a press. Nothing changed. Pure and simple coaching. I put up with years of Bill. With the pandemic, I am at home watching the games. Frankly, as a season ticketholder for 15 years, I saw nothing tonight that indicates any change or improvement. The games were empty last year. Based on what I saw tonight and not expecting any changes or developments, I hope I am wrong, no reason to go back.

Boo is actually a lot improved. You guys honestly just don’t know what to look for. He is filling a completely different role this year. Dudes game is totally different. Give him time to adjust to this role. He’s a volume streaky scorer but this year he’s added the ability to distribute and that’s shown in every game. Watch him drive dish and move the ball. If you look at last year he showed glimpses of that but this year he’s doing it consistently.

Rebounding I have no positives that was a **** show. It wasn’t a lack of ability but a lack of fundamental effort and putting a body on to box out. To be fair minus last two years Collins teams have hit the boards hard so idk what the issue is. We have the athletes to rebound. Maybe not against some bigs we’ll face later but against Pitt we did.

I mean beran and boo are clearly stronger. Nance I wish would have put more weight on but some body types at the age are nearly impossible to do that with in a cardio sport. I’m speaking from experience on that one, I gained 15 pounds and hit a wall of not gaining any weight.

Beating the press. Ya honestly no excuses there you have Boo, Audige, Nance, Greer, Gaines, and Beran. They all are capable ball handlers and passers. No excuses figure it out.

I’m basically saying there’s obvious negatives but man you guys are missing all the positives. This is fans being fanatic as my dad likes to say I guess.

 

[willycat]

Have to agree with Catfan. Gaines is the only one who looks like he spent any time in the weight room. ,
Maybe Young too. Overall we’re a very soft team playing in a very hard league.

He should have spent some of that time, practicing his shot.

 

[hollandnucat]

Fans definitely can over react. This was a night where cold shooting really hurt. There are many improvements on this team. The team is deeper than it has been. The first half they played pretty well. Had a very bad last 10 minutes and missed key free throws. This team is definitely going to do better than last years team.

 

[Alan Smithee_rivals156293]

I haven’t made a single projection about the season based on this game, but I differ with you about the first half. Yes we had a lead and I’m sure we had something to do with Pitt’s horrible shooting percentage, but we struggled plenty in the first half. Kopp wasn’t an offensive factor; we had crazy shot selection issues, we lost most of the hustle plays, and we didn’t work hard on the boards. Audige seemed to think the offense had to be loaded onto his back.

I was grateful for the lead but I didn’t think they played “pretty well.”

 

[catfans5]

Sorry, but none of the players show anything close to the physical development or muscular change that I saw occurred with Jeremy Nash, Reggie Hearn, John Shurna, Luka Mirkovic or Alex Olah. Young has developed. Our current crop, with the exception of Young resemble Vince Scott in physical development, play and aggression more than the aforementioned players.

I have seen other comments about our players jacking up stupid shots, not making correct decisions in breaking the press, and making silly fouls, in other words undisciplined, dumb basketball decisions or a lack of basketball intelligence. Supposedly, NU recruits highly intelligent athletes who should be very susceptible to coaching and if they were coached, we should not see those occurrences. Examples of undisciplined play and badly coached teams were Tom Cream’s Indiana and Steve Alford Iowa teams. Unfortunately, bad basketball leads to losses. One example this past game was when Pete Nance at the end of the game brought the ball low and allowed a guard to tie him up. Dumb decision to bring the ball low, but no damm aggression or movement to protect the ball or draw a foul. Each a prime example of a lack of coaching, aggression, and physical development. If it is not the coaching, then who recruited these players who are soft, uncoachable, and undisciplined?

I have watched teams play who are disciplined, hard nosed, box out and rebound. How many times did you see Wiscy take it to athletically superior teams playing tough fundamentally sound basketball. How about the recent PSU teams? Hard nosed basketball is a taught skill. Basketball intelligence can also be ingrained into a player. How many superlative recruits as hyped by many on this board came in here and did squat? We have not had a star since Vic Law and Bryant McIntosh. Luckily for us, those 2 carried us very far. They were tough and brought their teammates with them. This seems to be in short supply.

Finally, I find it very concerning that the only players from Illinois on the team are walk ons. None since Benson’s class four years ago. Not a good sign.

 

[clarificationcat]

Sorry, but none of the players show anything close to the physical development or muscular change that I saw occurred with Jeremy Nash, Reggie Hearn, John Shurna, Luka Mirkovic or Alex Olah. Young has developed. Our current crop, with the exception of Young resemble Vince Scott in physical development, play and aggression more than the aforementioned players.

I have seen other comments about our players jacking up stupid shots, not making correct decisions in breaking the press, and making silly fouls, in other words undisciplined, dumb basketball decisions or a lack of basketball intelligence. Supposedly, NU recruits highly intelligent athletes who should be very susceptible to coaching and if they were coached, we should not see those occurrences. Examples of undisciplined play and badly coached teams were Tom Cream’s Indians and Steve Alford Iowa teams. Unfortunately, bad basketball leads to losses. One example this past game was when Pete Nance at the end of the game brought the ball low and allowed a guard to tie him up. Dumb decision to bring the ball low, but no damm aggression or movement to protect the ball or draw a foul. Each a prime example of a lack of coaching, aggression, and physical development. If it is not the coaching, then who recruited these players who are soft, uncoachable, and undisciplined?

I have watched teams play who are disciplined, hard nosed, box out and rebound. How many times did you see Wiscy take it to athletically superior teams playing tough fundamentally sound basketball. How about the recent PSU teams? Hard nosed basketball is a taught skill. Basketball intelligence can also be ingrained into a player. How many superlative recruits as hyped by many on this board came in here and did squat? We have not had a star since Vic Law and Bryant McIntosh. Luckily for us, those 2 carried us very far. They were tough and brought their teammates with them. This seems to be in short supply.

Finally, I find it very concerning that the only players from Illinois on the team are walk ons. None since Benson’s class four years ago. Not a good sign.

 

[CatManTrue]

Painful to read but sadly true.

Does the basketball team use the same S&C coach as the football team? It’s still the same right?

 

[NJCat]

Painful to read but sadly true.

Does the basketball team use the same S&C coach as the football team? It’s still the same right?

Probably not. The media guide shows Mike Schweigert as Director of Sports Performance for BB, while Jay Hooton remains FB's. They use different weight facilities also, hoops and VB got brand spanking new weight rooms in the new practice facility adjacent to Welsh-Ryan Arena.

 

[catfans5]

I will make my last points about folks on this board keep talking about all the talent and depth on this squad. I will mention Craig Moore, Juice Thompson, Luka Mirkovic, Alex Olah, Reggie Hearn, Kevin Coble, John Shurna, Scott Lindsey and Vic Law. These in the last 15 years, IMO, were the best players who could will you to a win. I put Luka and Alex there since NU was so bereft of big man talent. Further, with the exception of the bigs and Reggie Hearn, each of the other players showed flashes of ability their freshman year. Some were darn good.

Boo may reach Juice level. The excuse that he is just now handling the ball is bull squat. My bet is that he played 4 to 6 games a weekend plus practices during the months of April, May, June, July, and September throughout high school years. Throw in high school play, I bet he played over 100 games a year. And yes, AAU is much better and tougher than high school ball. And yes, they do press in AAU and in high school. A press or pressure defense should should not have been a shock. Regardless, on talent level, let’s put him at Juice level.

I like Young and I will put him at Luka’s level. Heck, if Nance played at that level, it would be great, but he does not. For our small fowards/guards, would you mention Kopp and Beran at the same level as a frosh or sophomore as were Coble, Shurna, and Vic? Not even close. On the off guard, is there a player at or close to Hearn, Lindsey or Moore? I just don’t see it. I hope I eat my words. Audige can be good, but we do not have the makings of 3 players who can carry us night in night out either offensively or defensively ala Lumpkin. We have had a number of ballyhooed recruits and keep hearing this is the most talent we have ever had. I only see one player, Boo, playing close to NU star level, but is not there yet. With the alleged recruiting prowess, talent evaluation, and coaching ability, should we not have at least a Juice level player, a couple of Lukas, someone who can shoot like Moore and defend like Jeremy Nash level players in our line up? We are not close to that level.

Further, if you watched college ball the last week, it is pretty obvious that we are an undisciplined, soft team. I hope I eat crow, but this will be a long, long year.

 

[catfans5]

I forgot to throw in Drew Crawford, Tre Demps and Bryant McIntosh into the mix of former players as a baseline against whom to judge our current roster and Collins recruiting.

 

[clarificationcat]

Luka Mirkovic? Really. Seemed like a nice guy but physical development?

I will make my last points about folks on this board keep talking about all the talent and depth on this squad. I will mention Craig Moore, Juice Thompson, Luka Mirkovic, Alex Olah, Reggie Hearn, Kevin Coble, John Shurna, Scott Lindsey and Vic Law. These in the last 15 years, IMO, were the best players who could will you to a win. I put Luka and Alex there since NU was so bereft of big man talent. Further, with the exception of the bigs and Reggie Hearn, each of the other players showed flashes of ability their freshman year. Some were darn good.

Boo may reach Juice level. The excuse that he is just now handling the ball is bull squat. My bet is that he played 4 to 6 games a weekend plus practices during the months of April, May, June, July, and September throughout high school years. Throw in high school play, I bet he played over 100 games a year. And yes, AAU is much better and tougher than high school ball. And yes, they do press in AAU and in high school. A press or pressure defense should should not have been a shock. Regardless, on talent level, let’s put him at Juice level.

I like Young and I will put him at Luka’s level. Heck, if Nance played at that level, it would be great, but he does not. For our small fowards/guards, would you mention Kopp and Beran at the same level as a frosh or sophomore as were Coble, Shurna, and Vic? Not even close. On the off guard, is there a player at or close to Hearn, Lindsey or Moore? I just don’t see it. I hope I eat my words. Audige can be good, but we do not have the makings of 3 players who can carry us night in night out either offensively or defensively ala Lumpkin. We have had a number of ballyhooed recruits and keep hearing this is the most talent we have ever had. I only see one player, Boo, playing close to NU star level, but is not there yet. With the alleged recruiting prowess, talent evaluation, and coaching ability, should we not have at least a Juice level player, a couple of Lukas, someone who can shoot like Moore and defend like Jeremy Nash level players in our line up? We are not close to that level.

Further, if you watched college ball the last week, it is pretty obvious that we are an undisciplined, soft team. I hope I eat crow, but this will be a long, long year.

I will make my last points about folks on this board keep talking about all the talent and depth on this squad. I will mention Craig Moore, Juice Thompson, Luka Mirkovic, Alex Olah, Reggie Hearn, Kevin Coble, John Shurna, Scott Lindsey and Vic Law. These in the last 15 years, IMO, were the best players who could will you to a win. I put Luka and Alex there since NU was so bereft of big man talent. Further, with the exception of the bigs and Reggie Hearn, each of the other players showed flashes of ability their freshman year. Some were darn good.

Boo may reach Juice level. The excuse that he is just now handling the ball is bull squat. My bet is that he played 4 to 6 games a weekend plus practices during the months of April, May, June, July, and September throughout high school years. Throw in high school play, I bet he played over 100 games a year. And yes, AAU is much better and tougher than high school ball. And yes, they do press in AAU and in high school. A press or pressure defense should should not have been a shock. Regardless, on talent level, let’s put him at Juice level.

I like Young and I will put him at Luka’s level. Heck, if Nance played at that level, it would be great, but he does not. For our small fowards/guards, would you mention Kopp and Beran at the same level as a frosh or sophomore as were Coble, Shurna, and Vic? Not even close. On the off guard, is there a player at or close to Hearn, Lindsey or Moore? I just don’t see it. I hope I eat my words. Audige can be good, but we do not have the makings of 3 players who can carry us night in night out either offensively or defensively ala Lumpkin. We have had a number of ballyhooed recruits and keep hearing this is the most talent we have ever had. I only see one player, Boo, playing close to NU star level, but is not there yet. With the alleged recruiting prowess, talent evaluation, and coaching ability, should we not have at least a Juice level player, a couple of Lukas, someone who can shoot like Moore and defend like Jeremy Nash level players in our line up? We are not close to that level.

Further, if you watched college ball the last week, it is pretty obvious that we are an undisciplined, soft team. I hope I eat crow, but this will be a long, long year.

You are cherry picking seasons for a lot of the guys you mention. Hearn was great in his senior year. He didn't play in his first two years and averaged 7 points and 3 rebounds in his junior year. Lumpkin was very good in his 5th year and pretty much a nonfactor in his first 3 years in the program. Gaines is very close to Lumpkin through his first 4 years. Craig Moore average 8 points as a sophomore with a .367 shooting percentage and .328 from 3. Jeremy Nash averaged 3.5 points a game until his senior year. Notice a pattern here? As much as we want to accelerate development for this team, it's still a young team. Berry (a freshman) and Beran (a sophomore) are very good shooters and will be comparable to Moore over their careers. Kopp is one of the best shooters we have ever had in the program. And he has had good games against very good teams last year. Audige (another sophomore) will likely be a much better overall player than Nash and similar to Lindsey when he is done. Bouie (another sophomore) is going to be a good player. I agree that we don't have stars like a Coble or Shurna. And it hurts us at the end of games. But the hope is that the depth on this team, which from 1-8 is better than the vast majority of NU teams over the past 20 years will balance some of that as they get more experience, And I do think that the recruits for next year will bring some toughness and athleticism. If this team does not get better as the season progresses, then I will be very concerned.

 

[catfans5]

Luka Mirkovic? Really. Seemed like a nice guy but physical development?


You are cherry picking seasons for a lot of the guys you mention. Hearn was great in his senior year. He didn't play in his first two years and averaged 7 points and 3 rebounds in his junior year. Lumpkin was very good in his 5th year and pretty much a nonfactor in his first 3 years in the program. Gaines is very close to Lumpkin through his first 4 years. Craig Moore average 8 points as a sophomore with a .367 shooting percentage and .328 from 3. Jeremy Nash averaged 3.5 points a game until his senior year. Notice a pattern here? As much as we want to accelerate development for this team, it's still a young team. Berry (a freshman) and Beran (a sophomore) are very good shooters and will be comparable to Moore over their careers. Kopp is one of the best shooters we have ever had in the program. And he has had good games against very good teams last year. Audige (another sophomore) will likely be a much better overall player than Nash and similar to Lindsey when he is done. Bouie (another sophomore) is going to be a good player. I agree that we don't have stars like a Coble or Shurna. And it hurts us at the end of games. But the hope is that the depth on this team, which from 1-8 is better than the vast majority of NU teams over the past 20 years will balance some of that as they get more experience, And I do think that the recruits for next year will bring some toughness and athleticism. If this team does not get better as the season progresses, then I will be very concerned.

I used Luka as a flashpoint. Pete is a junior. Luka at this point in his career offered more than Pete does now.

I did not cherry pick anything. Craig Moore for example had 4 double digit games as a freshman in B10 Basketball. Beran had 2 such games. Moore's frosh team had Veedran, Hachad and Tim Doyle to occupy the ball. Hearn's Junior year he had Shurna averaging 20 and Drew averaging 16? Who was there last year carrying the load for our current crop? Pat Spencer? Juice averaged 11.6 per/game as a frosh, Drew 10, and Demps 7.8. Last year, Beran 5.0, Nance 8.5 and Kopp 13 and Buie 10.4. As to Audige, he may become a good player and I understand coaches miss on a recruit, but I really hate to place my hope in a William & Mary transfer who averaged 9.6/game. In the words of Joe Biden, "C'mon man!"

 

[clarificationcat]

I used Luka as a flashpoint. Pete is a junior. Luka at this point in his career offered more than Pete does now.

I did not cherry pick anything. Craig Moore for example had 4 double digit games as a freshman in B10 Basketball. Beran had 2 such games. Moore's frosh team had Veedran, Hachad and Tim Doyle to occupy the ball. Hearn's Junior year he had Shurna averaging 20 and Drew averaging 16? Who was there last year carrying the load for our current crop? Pat Spencer? Juice averaged 11.6 per/game as a frosh, Drew 10, and Demps 7.8. Last year, Beran 5.0, Nance 8.5 and Kopp 13 and Buie 10.4. As to Audige, he may become a good player and I understand coaches miss on a recruit, but I really hate to place my hope in a William & Mary transfer who averaged 9.6/game. In the words of Joe Biden, "C'mon man!"

This will be my last post because it's clear you are the type of person who can't be swayed by facts. You used Craig Moore as an example of a great shooter. He shot 36% from the field as a sophomore. That's not great. He was really good in his last two years. You used Reggie Hearn as an example. He did not even play his first two years and I would really hate to put my hopes in a walk-on. Sanjay probably had 20 plus conference games where he didn't score in his 2nd and 3rd years of playing in the program. Luka averaged 7.3 points and 5.7 rebounds his junior year. I think Nance will match that and he's a much more versatile defender. Demps and Lindsey were ripped endlessly on this board until their junior years. Hell, I had more posts than anyone on this board defending Vic Law for that matter.

Reaching these sorts of extreme conclusions after our first bad game of the season is just silly, especially with a team starting 3 sophomores and 2 juniors. And especially against a team that beat Florida State and North Carolina twice last year. Oh, and Wisconsin starts 5 seniors, a couple of whom are 5th years I think. Peace out.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I used Luka as a flashpoint. Pete is a junior. Luka at this point in his career offered more than Pete does now.

I did not cherry pick anything. Craig Moore for example had 4 double digit games as a freshman in B10 Basketball. Beran had 2 such games. Moore's frosh team had Veedran, Hachad and Tim Doyle to occupy the ball. Hearn's Junior year he had Shurna averaging 20 and Drew averaging 16? Who was there last year carrying the load for our current crop? Pat Spencer? Juice averaged 11.6 per/game as a frosh, Drew 10, and Demps 7.8. Last year, Beran 5.0, Nance 8.5 and Kopp 13 and Buie 10.4. As to Audige, he may become a good player and I understand coaches miss on a recruit, but I really hate to place my hope in a William & Mary transfer who averaged 9.6/game. In the words of Joe Biden, "C'mon man!"

How many good teams existed with all of this previous talent? You aren’t highlighting a bunch of guys that were stars from day one. In fact you boost up a walk on while ripping on a transfer because he went to W&M. The Illini are very strong this year, maybe spend time watching them?

 

[catfans5]

How many good teams existed with all of this previous talent? You aren’t highlighting a bunch of guys that were stars from day one. In fact you boost up a walk on while ripping on a transfer because he went to W&M. The Illini are very strong this year, maybe spend time watching them?

IIRC, my season tickets started Vedran's junior year after a large gap after watching Bill McKinney as a teenager. My sons grew up with NU basketball games having seen Central Connecticut a number of times in person. We rarely missed a game attending 15 to 18 games a year, including B10 Championships. In one son's room, there is an autographed poster with Sterling Williams, Craig Moore and Tim Doyle from meet the players. During those years, I saw Parker, Hachad, Juice, Sobo and Bryant run the point. A picture of John Shurna smiling with my young daughter and son is on the refrigerator. We saw a lot of bad games and some thrilling games. The Michigan win is permanently etched in my memory.

I remember all the excitement over transfers Michael Thompson, Tim Doyle, a Kentucky transfer IIRC, and every other transfer who were alleged program changers. I pointed out all the previous stars in the NU program for comparison purposes. Are our current players at the level of prior stars who did not get to the NCAA or are they at the level of the players who got us to the NCAA? I read the comments on this board about the current crop. As to our current players, I am hopeful that they pan out as many on this board have gushed and the coaching will transform them, I will gladly come on this board to eat crow, but call me jaded.

You comment about watching Illinois is par for the course. I sat in the empty stands for the U-Mass football game last year and the empty b-ball stadium last year. Keep pushing fans away with your condescension since you do not like what they say. I can spend my money elsewhere.

 

[peatymeanis]

IIRC, my season tickets started Vedran's junior year after a large gap after watching Bill McKinney as a teenager. My sons grew up with NU basketball games having seen Central Connecticut a number of times in person. We rarely missed a game attending 15 to 18 games a year, including B10 Championships. In one son's room, there is an autographed poster with Sterling Williams, Craig Moore and Tim Doyle from meet the players. During those years, I saw Parker, Hachad, Juice, Sobo and Bryant run the point. A picture of John Shurna smiling with my young daughter and son is on the refrigerator. We saw a lot of bad games and some thrilling games. The Michigan win is permanently etched in my memory.

I remember all the excitement over transfers Michael Thompson, Tim Doyle, a Kentucky transfer IIRC, and every other transfer who were alleged program changers. I pointed out all the previous stars in the NU program for comparison purposes. Are our current players at the level of prior stars who did not get to the NCAA or are they at the level of the players who got us to the NCAA? I read the comments on this board about the current crop. As to our current players, I am hopeful that they pan out as many on this board have gushed and the coaching will transform them, I will gladly come on this board to eat crow, but call me jaded.

You comment about watching Illinois is par for the course. I sat in the empty stands for the U-Mass football game last year and the empty b-ball stadium last year. Keep pushing fans away with your condescension since you do not like what they say. I can spend my money elsewhere.

I agree with what you're saying. I do not understand the conventional wisdom that exists on this board of Collins as some magical recruiting guru. The only Collins recruit that has ever demonstrated natural bball IQ was McIntosh, and it is no coincidence that we've been garbage ever since he graduated. The other guards he's recruited have been miss after disastrous miss.

Players like Coble, Shurna, Crawford flashed all conference potential the minute they started getting playing time. Who on this current roster gets people excited for the future? This is not a team oozing with talent. Any major conference coach that completely whiffs on 3-4 recruiting classes in a row deserves to be canned.

 

[go cats go_rivals310290]

I agree with what you're saying. I do not understand the conventional wisdom that exists on this board of Collins as some magical recruiting guru. The only Collins recruit that has ever demonstrated natural bball IQ was McIntosh, and it is no coincidence that we've been garbage ever since he graduated. The other guards he's recruited have been miss after disastrous miss.

Players like Coble, Shurna, Crawford flashed all conference potential the minute they started getting playing time. Who on this current roster gets people excited for the future? This is not a team oozing with talent. Any major conference coach that completely whiffs on 3-4 recruiting classes in a row deserves to be canned.

I was a big Carmody supporter, but it's pretty easy to acknowledge the improved depth and overall talent under Collins.

 

[peatymeanis]

I was a big Carmody supporter, but it's pretty easy to acknowledge the improved depth and overall talent under Collins.

how do you define talent? Because not one of Collins recruits has been as good as Coble, Shurna, Crawford. Theoretical ability is meaningless. Real talent = being able to consistently make positive basketball plays on the court. Nance is a marginal basketball talent, despite his athletic gifts. We need to start differentiating between theoretical talent because of the way someone runs/jumps and actual basketball ability.

 

[Sec_112]

I really don't want to play the Carmody/Collins game. Collins has enough of a resume to be judged on his own merit.

But if we're going to talk a talent comparison to Craig Moore, Juice Thompson, Luka Mirkovic, Alex Olah, Reggie Hearn, Kevin Coble, John Shurna, Drew Crawford and Tre Demps (did I miss anybody above), can we at least compare apples to apples? Are we really going to compare Carmody's entire 13 years to Collins' eight?

And please don't tell me the program after-Carmody was miles ahead of post-KO. I've been down that road also.

If we compare Carmody's eighth year to Collins' eighth year, Moore, Thompson and Coble are the only guys who would appear on from the list. To be fair, you should probably include Vukusic.

But I agree, it's reasonable to say the foundational pieces are unfortunately comparable. The second tier however ...

 

[lunker35]

I really don't want to play the Carmody/Collins game. Collins has enough of a resume to be judged on his own merit.

But if we're going to talk a talent comparison to Craig Moore, Juice Thompson, Luka Mirkovic, Alex Olah, Reggie Hearn, Kevin Coble, John Shurna, Drew Crawford and Tre Demps (did I miss anybody above), can we at least compare apples to apples? Are we really going to compare Carmody's entire 13 years to Collins' eight?

And please don't tell me the program after-Carmody was miles ahead of post-KO. I've been down that road also.

If we compare Carmody's eighth year to Collins' eighth year, Moore, Thompson and Coble are the only guys who would appear on from the list. To be fair, you should probably include Vukusic.

But I agree, it's reasonable to say the foundational pieces are unfortunately comparable. The second tier however ...

Jitim? He was first team all B1G.

 

[peatymeanis]

I really don't want to play the Carmody/Collins game. Collins has enough of a resume to be judged on his own merit.

But if we're going to talk a talent comparison to Craig Moore, Juice Thompson, Luka Mirkovic, Alex Olah, Reggie Hearn, Kevin Coble, John Shurna, Drew Crawford and Tre Demps (did I miss anybody above), can we at least compare apples to apples? Are we really going to compare Carmody's entire 13 years to Collins' eight?

And please don't tell me the program after-Carmody was miles ahead of post-KO. I've been down that road also.

If we compare Carmody's eighth year to Collins' eighth year, Moore, Thompson and Coble are the only guys who would appear on from the list. To be fair, you should probably include Vukusic.

But I agree, it's reasonable to say the foundational pieces are unfortunately comparable. The second tier however ...

You say that you don’t want to play the comparison game and then proceed to do just that. Anyway, I’ll agree with you that Collins has done enough to be judged on his own merit. And if after 8 years, he has the program roughly at the same spot where Carmody was after his first 8 years, then what’s the point?

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I agree with what you're saying. I do not understand the conventional wisdom that exists on this board of Collins as some magical recruiting guru. The only Collins recruit that has ever demonstrated natural bball IQ was McIntosh, and it is no coincidence that we've been garbage ever since he graduated. The other guards he's recruited have been miss after disastrous miss.

Players like Coble, Shurna, Crawford flashed all conference potential the minute they started getting playing time. Who on this current roster gets people excited for the future? This is not a team oozing with talent. Any major conference coach that completely whiffs on 3-4 recruiting classes in a row deserves to be canned.

I don’t know what you are talking about with all the Collins support? This board comments are at least 75/25 against Collins.

I think it is silly to can him now, but have at it if you must. I will be back to listen to calling for the next coaches head in 5 years when he is 10-14th in the B1G. This is one of the toughest jobs in the country let alone the B1G.

 

[peatymeanis]

I don’t know what you are talking about with all the Collins support? This board comments are at least 75/25 against Collins.

I think it is silly to can him now, but have at it if you must. I will be back to listen to calling for the next coaches head in 5 years when he is 10-14th in the B1G. This is one of the toughest jobs in the country let alone the B1G.

Huh? I didn’t say people on this board supported him. I said people think he’s some sort of a recruiting guru, which is wholly unjustified. Even many who don’t like Collins mindlessly accept the false notion that he’s recruiting at a much higher level than Carmody, which hasn’t actually been borne out in reality.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

IIRC, my season tickets started Vedran's junior year after a large gap after watching Bill McKinney as a teenager. My sons grew up with NU basketball games having seen Central Connecticut a number of times in person. We rarely missed a game attending 15 to 18 games a year, including B10 Championships. In one son's room, there is an autographed poster with Sterling Williams, Craig Moore and Tim Doyle from meet the players. During those years, I saw Parker, Hachad, Juice, Sobo and Bryant run the point. A picture of John Shurna smiling with my young daughter and son is on the refrigerator. We saw a lot of bad games and some thrilling games. The Michigan win is permanently etched in my memory.

I remember all the excitement over transfers Michael Thompson, Tim Doyle, a Kentucky transfer IIRC, and every other transfer who were alleged program changers. I pointed out all the previous stars in the NU program for comparison purposes. Are our current players at the level of prior stars who did not get to the NCAA or are they at the level of the players who got us to the NCAA? I read the comments on this board about the current crop. As to our current players, I am hopeful that they pan out as many on this board have gushed and the coaching will transform them, I will gladly come on this board to eat crow, but call me jaded.

You comment about watching Illinois is par for the course. I sat in the empty stands for the U-Mass football game last year and the empty b-ball stadium last year. Keep pushing fans away with your condescension since you do not like what they say. I can spend my money elsewhere.

I don’t care how or where you spend your money. I sat at the UMAss game and everyone other one too. I just get tired of constant bitching about CCC. Saying there were a slew of more talented teams prior to CCC is just wrong. Some better individual players, ok. Not a plethora or them and some names bantered around are not those elite talented players. Teams no way and I was around for those teams too.

Look I have blasted CCC for plenty of coaching moves, but some people act like he has been a complete bust. I am not there. This place can be worse than the Rant board. If I didn’t know better CCC is responsible for COVID-19.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Huh? I didn’t say people on this board supported him. I said people think he’s some sort of a recruiting guru, which is wholly unjustified. Even many who don’t like Collins mindlessly accept the false notion that he’s recruiting at a much higher level than Carmody, which hasn’t actually been borne out in reality.

So you think he has recruited less talent than his predecessor?

 

[peatymeanis]

So you think he has recruited less talent than his predecessor?

I don’t think Collins has been significantly better than Carmody in recruiting, who was frequently (rightfully) panned for his lack of recruiting prowess.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

So you think he has recruited less talent than his predecessor?

For whatever reason, Carmody recruited more individual “stars” like Shurna, Crawford, Coble, but never had the depth. CC has recruited way more Big 10 talent, and has had infinitely better players at 6 through 12 but no one who other teams need to game plan to stop. But a guy like Berry is on the bench for Collins but would have been an unquestioned four year starter for Carmody

 

[ThatadultfromHolland]

For whatever reason, Carmody recruited more individual “stars” like Shurna, Crawford, Coble, but never had the depth. CC has recruited way more Big 10 talent, and has had infinitely better players at 6 through 12 but no one who other teams need to game plan to stop. But a guy like Berry is on the bench for Collins but would have been an unquestioned four year starter for Carmody

McIntosh? Pardon? Buie? (for that brief hot streak) Lindsay? (before mono during tourney season) Kopp? (You game plan for someone who’s the most consistent scorer on a team, even if they don’t create their own shot all all that well)
Not saying who’s better between the “stars” just opponents do gameplay for those guys I listed.

 

[Hans_rivals316875]

This thread is retarded. The talent level CCC has brought in is generally a significant improvement. Coaching (on offense in particular) has been questionable. Still can we bury the hatchet on ridiculous comparisons already...

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

For whatever reason, Carmody recruited more individual “stars” like Shurna, Crawford, Coble, but never had the depth. CC has recruited way more Big 10 talent, and has had infinitely better players at 6 through 12 but no one who other teams need to game plan to stop. But a guy like Berry is on the bench for Collins but would have been an unquestioned four year starter for Carmody

This is my thoughts as well. The problem has been that lack of a go to guy or a guy that hates to lose more than he like to win. Some of those previous star players had that mentality. Juice, Jitim come to mind, but let’s face it, they often had to take the bull by the horns because they didn’t have a lot of help.

Blast Collins for going in the turtle with a lead or other game strategies, but recruiting should be down the list.

 

[GatoLouco]

Of course the talent that CC has brought in is higher than Carmody's. Cherry picking is often the way to try to justify what is hard to justify. It's tempting to think just about the one season, or games that suit our own opinions. Case in point, Coble. Loved that dude. Was fantastic. But let's not forget how it was not exactly a smooth 4 years of solid contributions (whose fault does not matter for this point). Or how he wasn't really a great asset on defense.

There's zero players in the Carmody era that compare to Dererk Pardon. Zero. Olah was a great dude, a warrior, gave us all, and more, he got. Compare numbers all you want, he did not hang with the big boys on both side of the court as Pardon did.

Could argue the same for Vic Law, who few to no Carmody players could match in ability of bumping and fighting with any player in the league, regardless of physical ability, speed, etc. Intangibles that help a team be that much more competitive.

But ultimately, specific comparisons are so hard to be apples to apples. Carmody defenders can easily point to stats that are similar between players. And ignore the fact that ultimately, someone needs to take shots. Even in the lousiest team around, someone is gonna average double digits. Or argue that those numbers were achieved in the 45 second shot clock, in an offense that did not necessarily pull the trigger fast. Hence, way less possessions to put up the numbers.

What I don't think is arguable is that, regardless of the abysmal use of available scholarships in the last couple of years, CC has more players who he can give minutes to. He also has faster and taller players. So easy to forget how now we ***** there is no reason to be killed on the boards. When before we just accepted it as reality and hoped the massacre was not too severe. Heck, I used to marvel every time there was a dunk in purple. Like it was some kind of unicorn event.

And this is, in sum, the reason jumping on the fire CC bandwagon is hard. Cause ultimately college ball is 90% about recruiting and decreasing its quality is creating such a much bigger hurdle. If it's not reasonable to think a new guy could recruit at a similar level...

Having said all this, I don't know how you justify going beyond March 22 with CC. His in game coaching is incredibly dubious. One wonders what goes on in practice to be so unprepared. And the ability to make players better between seasons is definitely questionable.

Unfortunately for him, and for us, the draw we got for the conference games is, on paper, a disaster. We do not play home and away games against Minny, Nebby, Purdue and Maryland. Teams more in our league. So this fan is really worried this season will feel a lot like last year's.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

This thread is retarded. The talent level CCC has brought in is generally a significant improvement. Coaching (on offense in particular) has been questionable. Still can we bury the hatchet on ridiculous comparisons already...

No one is arguing that it's not an overall improvement. But for all the improvement it's an interesting footnote that Northwestern's all-time leading scorer (Shurna) and second all-time leading scorer (Crawford) were both brought in under the previous regime.

 

[ThatadultfromHolland]

No one is arguing that it's not an overall improvement. But for all the improvement it's an interesting footnote that Northwestern's all-time leading scorer (Shurna) and second all-time leading scorer (Crawford) were both brought in under the previous regime.

All time assist leader- McIntosh (also placed 6th in points)
5th highest rebounding total- pardon
2nd biggest block total- pardon

I feel Olah is unfair to give either coach because he was recruited by carmody and played for him but saw his biggest improvements under Collins.

 

[CappyNU]

In Carmody's 7th and 8th years, (2006-07 and 2007-08) he went a combined 3-31 in conference play. Only in his first season (2001, no detailed Kenpom data) out of the first 8 seasons was the Big 10 ever better than the 3rd-best conference in basketball per Kenpom. By comparison, the conference has been 1st or 2nd 3 times in Collins' first 7 seasons and is currently ranked 2nd again this year.

The toughest conference season by efficiency margin for Carmody was 2006-07, in which we went 2-14. Collins has had 3 seasons tougher than that (2013-14, 2018-19, 2019-20) where we went 6-12, 4-16, 3-17.

From those first 8 Carmody years, I would take Jitim, Vedran, Coble, Moore and Juice as the only true worthwhile players that could be real impact guys. Compare to Collins, who has had Law, BMac, Lindsey, Pardon, Kopp, Young, Buie with the jury out on Nance and Beran through the same timeframe. A team comprised of Collins recruits through 8 seasons would wipe the floor with a comparable Carmody team through 8 seasons.

Believe me, I'm still pretty frustrated with how that Pitt game went down, seeing the same issues from last season pop up, but at this point in Carmody's tenure there was extremely little to hang his hat on. At least we have a tourney appearance with a win with Collins.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

In Carmody's 7th and 8th years, (2006-07 and 2007-08) he went a combined 3-31 in conference play. Only in his first season (2001, no detailed Kenpom data) out of the first 8 seasons was the Big 10 ever better than the 3rd-best conference in basketball per Kenpom. By comparison, the conference has been 1st or 2nd 3 times in Collins' first 7 seasons and is currently ranked 2nd again this year.

The toughest conference season by efficiency margin for Carmody was 2006-07, in which we went 2-14. Collins has had 3 seasons tougher than that (2013-14, 2018-19, 2019-20) where we went 6-12, 4-16, 3-17.

From those first 8 Carmody years, I would take Jitim, Vedran, Coble, Moore and Juice as the only true worthwhile players that could be real impact guys. Compare to Collins, who has had Law, BMac, Lindsey, Pardon, Kopp, Young, Buie with the jury out on Nance and Beran through the same timeframe. A team comprised of Collins recruits through 8 seasons would wipe the floor with a comparable Carmody team through 8 seasons.

Believe me, I'm still pretty frustrated with how that Pitt game went down, seeing the same issues from last season pop up, but at this point in Carmody's tenure there was extremely little to hang his hat on. At least we have a tourney appearance with a win with Collins.

Thanks for the research. It is crazy the overall depth of the B1G this season. There is no doubt in my mind the team is better than last years. I think by more than a small margin. However, I can’t see NU over 6 wins in conference. Everyone will be calling for CCC’s head, but NU isn’t close to the big boys in conference. I think 6 wins would actually be very good for how we shake out in talent and experience. There are very veteran teams in this league. Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois are powers and we are saddled with them twice. Iowa is as good as I can ever remember them being. Illinois has its best team in 15 years. Even Rutgers has come alive with the NY pipeline. Then you got traditional powerful programs at MSU, Purdue, Indiana, Michigan, Maryland. OSU and Minny have seen success.

Personally, I think the NU job is as difficult as any in the country. Sorry, but NU’s stellar academic standing isn’t all that helpful in recruiting talented basketball players. It can be argued that it hinders recruitment.

 

[Gladeskat]

I agree with what you're saying. I do not understand the conventional wisdom that exists on this board of Collins as some magical recruiting guru. The only Collins recruit that has ever demonstrated natural bball IQ was McIntosh, and it is no coincidence that we've been garbage ever since he graduated. The other guards he's recruited have been miss after disastrous miss.

Are we forgetting Dererk Pardon? And a lack of basketball IQ isn't one of Young's shortcomings.

 

[CappyNU]

Are we forgetting Dererk Pardon? And a lack of basketball IQ isn't one of Young's shortcomings.

I think he was limiting to guards only.