NU lands grad transfer F Tydus Verhoeven from UTEP
- Thread starter lou v
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Basically, yes. Although Tydus did at times show that he had a good hook shot (it's good enough that I wondered why he didn't score more).
He will definitely help on defense.
If CC can find a nice garbage can that can hit one 3 every 3 games, both MN and Verhoeven will be stapled to the bench.Nah.... he's taking Nicholson's minutes.
If Verhoeven is playing a lot for us next season, we are in trouble.
UTEP was rated about 8 points worse than NU last year. That a big difference.
He does have Big Ten size as a power forward. But if he can't shoot the 3, he's not a stretch 4.
If he plays the 5 he's too small versus most of the Big Ten.
And the only things certain in life are death and Robbie Beran as the starting "power forward."
UTEP was rated about 8 points worse than NU last year. That a big difference.
He does have Big Ten size as a power forward. But if he can't shoot the 3, he's not a stretch 4.
If he plays the 5 he's too small versus most of the Big Ten.
And the only things certain in life are death and Robbie Beran as the starting "power forward."
As I pointed out before, Pardon couldn't hit 3's and Collins played him 30 plus minutes a game. Perhaps he played so much because he was a good defender and could protect the rim? Maybe some coaches don't like bigs who are bad help defenders and offer no rim protection? Depending on matchups, Ryan Young should have played more. But he had significant holes in his game. And he was on the floor at the end of lots of games we lost. And before folks talk about how the Duke coaching staff knows more than I do (and they certainly do), let's wait to see if he actually plays. The Duke transfer from Harvard put up slightly better number than Robbie Beran in the Ivy League in his junior year (9.6 points a game, 4 rebounds, a 1 to 2 assist to turnover ratio, 49.7% from the field, 36.5% from 3-point territory and 56% from the free throw line). He was the 4th leading scorer on a team that finished 5 and 9 in the conference. If he is any indication, Duke is just filling out their bench with high calibre guys who won't complain if they don't play. PWB would certainly not be very impressed if he transferred to NU.
Buie and Audige will almost certainly start and Berry probably will. And CC should play Roper and/or Simmons more. So picture this ... Robbie Beran as a stretch 5. A true nightmare. He could make Pete Nance look like Dikembe Mutombo.
I think Roper will definitely start. He and Simmons have the most upside on the team and Roper is already physically mature enough for the conference. I think there is a lot more to his game than he showed last year. I am hoping with more experience he will start to figure out how to finish at the basket and create his own shots. I think Berry is better coming off the bench and getting playing time if he's hot. At this point, he looks like he is just a 3-point shooter who is an o.k. defender (good hands and good anticipation off the ball). Audige is our best on-ball defender but it's hard to play him 30 minutes if he shoots like he did last year. Simmons has a lot of strength and size to gain before he can really be a consistent factor. Watching the tournament, you definitely don't have to have a traditional center to win (it certainly hasn't served the B1G well) but you do need really good athletes with length who can double team and rotate on defense and rebound (we likely don't have enough of those). We need to coach our players to be much more aggressive on double teams. Make the big guy uncomfortable. Our double teams on bigs seemed predictable and passive.
I am actually more concerned about offense than defense. We are losing almost 25 points a game from Nance and Young and, unless Hunger is a huge surprise, I don't know where those points are going to come from. Audige can shoot better (almost anyone could) and Roper and Simmons can contribute more, but I don't see them filling that void. Buie can continue to improve as a finisher (I though he got a little better last year as the year went on) but he's just an o.k. outside shooter and I don't think that's going to change in his senior year. I assume Beran will score a little more but his offensive game is too limited for him to be a consistent threat. We can certainly score a few more points in transition with Roper and Simmons on the floor. We were awful last year in transition. It seemed like half the time our fast breaks ended up leading to an easy basket for the other team.
It’s futile trying to convince some of the obvious. This board has devolved into a who has the biggest **** contest.
The point will come from MN when CCC forces him to be a 3 point shooter and he starts nailing them by mid year.
After Pardon, Young was a starter as a RS FR. Things later changed. We want to play fast, yada, yada.
The idea that Young was benched because of defense is silly. But perfectly understandable for those who want to find reasons beyond the incompetence of the guy who matters.
I am fine with Collins being replaced. Bottom line, he didn't recruit enough good players. Certainly not enough stars and not enough finishers. We didn't win enough games last year because we didn't have enough guys step up at the end of games. Not because Ryan Young didn't play 4 minutes more each half. Nobody on the team was capable of consistently getting to the basket and finishing or drawing falls. Nance had a very good year but he wasn't able to do that. He couldn't hit enough shots at the end of games and missed some critical free throws.
And please don't lecture me about basketball because, frankly, I don't think you understand the game very well. Your view is perfectly understandable for those who can only see the incompetence of the guy who matters in every decision. You see Young banging in the post but you can't connect the dots that he should have been altering the easy layup that the other team just made or that he was out of position on a switch and the other team got a dunk. I was at at least two games this year when he got pulled because he didn't contest a drive. I saw Collins gesturing on the bench. And when we played teams with actual big dudes, he struggled offensively. He was a nonfactor offensively in the 4 Illinois and Purdue games. He missed free throws against Michigan and Wisconsin down the stretch that contributed to losing those games. If you don't think Pardon would have started last year with Nance at the 4, you are truly delusional.
I thought this was a civil discussion, but here we are with accusations of not understanding the game. Sure, can't compete with someone who saw it live, twice.
And to think I actually agree with with a lot of what you have been saying. Imagine I did not.
You shouldn't push this idea that Young was playing in crunch time because he generally wasn't. Beran was out there almost all the time, disappearing from the game.
Yes, Young did play extended minutes against Wisconsin, With Nance. It was one of those rare Collins roster decisions. And we outscored the Badgers 44-36 in 19 minutes when our two best bigs were out there together.
The Wisconsin game strongly re-inforced what nearly everybody knew - that Young and Nance should be our frontcourt.
Yes Young struggled against the two biggest big guys in the conference. I stated that before the season - Ryan Young will play well against any center in the Big Ten not named Cockburn or Edey. He can't handle those monsters. So your criticism is rather unfair.
Dererk Pardon was a very good player for NU, but you really can't just assume Collins would have played Nance at the 4 and Pardon at the 5. He didn't do it with Young, when he obviously should have.
One might argue that our coach is closer to being delusional. I know for sure that Gato is not.
My man.... I think it's time to just let it go. At some point, you have to accept that there are people out there who just disagree with you. I don't particularly think Young was all that good and I think more minutes for him would have exposed his weaknesses even more. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. At this point, it doesn't matter. Now they're both gone, so it really doesn't matter.
Now, I realize this is evidence B in your case against Chris Collins (Evidence A being the gross underuse of one Matt Nicholson), but you've already won that case on here. I think 90% of posters agree that Collins has screwed up and should be relieved of his duties - even if we all have slightly different reasons.
So why keep fighting this battle? I imagine you're a fairly knowledgeable fan and probably a good guy in real life, but clearly you're pissing off a lot of people on here with your constant sermons. Why do that to yourself? We don't all have to agree. It's fine. It's just college basketball... and besides... the whole thing will probably be gone in another few years anyway. Let's have fun!!
If you want to compare Young to Pardon, then you are delusional. Not in the same ballpark as defenders, finishers or overall players. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say. Young averaged .3 blocks a game this year. That's hard to do at the center position. And, more importantly, he didn't alter shots either. Pardon shot over 60% from the field his first three years. Pardon would have started and played 25 plus minutes this year. I feel extremely comfortable assuming that.
We went to Young 6 or 7 times in the last 10 minutes of the Wisconsin game when the game was still winnable. He produced 1 or 2 points in those possessions. Folks said he was tired. Played too many minutes. The Wisconsin game was a close game because Audige played well. It was his best game of the year. He shot 10 for 17 from the field and had 23 points. For most of the game, he almost looked the equal of Davis. If he had more games like that, we would have won at least 2 or 3 more games in the conference.
In addition to the Wisconsin game, Young played in several other games in crunch time.
Against Michigan, we had a 7 point lead with 5 minutes to go. Michigan went 3 for 3 from 3-point range (some bad luck there) and took the lead. Young missed a shot and went 1 for 2 from the line in the last 2 minutes of the game. Nance missed 2 free throws and Buie missed one. He definitely played down the stretch.
He played at the end of both Michigan State games and obviously was a huge factor in the victory. He went 3 for 4 from the line in the last couple of minutes of the loss.
Let's ignore all of the other victories since we won those games.
Let's ignore the Illinois and Purdue games since, as you say, he struggled against those teams.
Against Maryland in the loss, he didn't play much. Beran had 17 points and 6 rebounds, so he played fairly well. We also had good chances to win that game. Nance missed a free throw at the end of regulation that would have won the game.
He didn't play much in the Minnesota game (no points in 12 minutes) but I doubt he would have altered that game if he played 30 minutes. The whole team stunk and their guard had the game of his life.
He definitely should have played more against PSU in the 2nd loss. In the first loss, we played well and Penn State hit a bunch of tough 3's in the last 10 minutes.
I don't think he would have affected either Iowa game if he played the whole game.
So he should have played more against Penn State in the 2nd game and perhaps Maryland. He played down the stretch in our losses to Michigan State, Michigan and Wisconsin. He was a nonfactor against Illinois and Purdue. I don't think he would have changed the outcome of the Minnesota and Iowa losses.
That's pretty much the whole season.
What was Young's non-adjusted plus/minus for the season?
RY is not close to Pardon as a player. The fact he played down low should dispel the myth that CCC only wants stretch bigs.
Generous and well said.
It's too bad a board user was forced to address this. It's nice to see someone care about the quality of the discussion.
I like this sentence, like, are you more concerned about your pancreatic cancer or your brain cancer?
Like you, I enjoy posting commentary here (obviously) but you can see why I keep discussing certain things. People push false narratives and make up things that they attribute to me. It happens with others as well.
To me, its revisionist history.
This line from clarificationcat is a classic...
"If you want to compare Young to Pardon, then you are delusional."
First of all, I never even compared the two players. I like(d) them both.
Secondly, it is perfectly normal for rational fans to compare one player to another.
It is the opposite of delusional. Its realistic.
So that sort of thing bugs me - passive aggressive nonsense posing as discussion.
So you can understand how people are bothered when the discussion is obsessively swung to the idea of criticizing Collins with very little objectivity. Especially when 85-90% of the board MINIMUM agrees his time has come and he's doing a poor job.
Would love your insights on who is contributing to the quality of the discussion. I'm assuming by that you mean actually discussing basketball in some detail.
Or when some around obsessively glass half and everything is unicorns and rainbows, right? No - because those posters get a pass.
I would give weight to your opinion if it wasn’t directed to only one type of repetitive posting that we see around here. Until you jump on those posts equally - just another partisan attack.
I guess the point for me would be that Young and Pardon are obviously very different players, but both have talents that can help a team (I noticed that Duke didn't invite me for a grad transfer visit and I have lots of eligibility left!) Obviously, the job of the coach is to take those talents and find a way to blend them with the talents of other players to produce some victories. IMHO, the talent was there to produce a lot more wins than the team did the last two years.
I'd be interested in someone offering some ideas about how Verhoeven fits in the rotation to combine with the talents of other players to produce more success. It seems hard to imagine that you could play him with either Nicholson or Hunger.
You actually contribute quite frequently to actually discussing basketball. And with great points too. The sad truth is that a lot of the people critical of his posts don’t actually contribute a whole lot.
What happens with the relentless (ironic as the criticism is often about relentless posting) criticisms of PWB is absolutely childish high school reminiscent stuff. First it was complaining about the volume of +/- based posts. There have not been a lot of them lately, so it has now evolved to complaints of too much CC negativity or some other BS du jour. Point is, it seems it was not, shockingly, about +/- after all. Shocking.
Let me offer a different take on this dynamic. This board, like most places in the world is, at first, welcoming and warm and fuzzy. But become a more high volume poster and the knives comes out. I say this confidently as I experienced a very similar dynamic. There are, for sure, multiple reasons for this. Many of the “old timers” here feel threatened somehow. Many feel lectured to, offends their fragile sensitivities of people who are objectively smart and successful but not used to getting challenged. I could go on. I won’t.
Just wait for the next high volume poster to come around. It will happen again. But no worries, this boards renews itself constantly. The discussion just gets more and more vibrant. Wait, it doesn’t. It’s anemic. So let’s all continue to be so triggered by high volume posting, that will surely help. In the end, that’s the only thing this is about.
And Nance and Young been the forecourt, they would both likely still be here. Head scratching.
Wasn‘t this handily proven false by a poll on this board near the end of the season?
It’s not high-volume posting itself:
- it’s doing so along with becoming entrenched - the inability to give reasonable deference to other positions.
- it’s not openly acknowledging when your position is not supported by results
- it’s purposefully dodging fair questions
- it’s getting to a point of childish name-calling when your argument unravels a bit, rather than admitting it like a grown-up.
- it’s always having to get the last word.
PWB retrenches when challenged about the inherent limitations of the +/- stat. It’s useful, but not gospel. If he can’t acknowledge its limitations to any reasonable extent, he loses credibility. His relentlessness then just adds the fuel that causes the vitriol. That’s not the fault of the “old timers” on the board.
People will say and/do almost anything to defend a position rather than admit they were wrong. That lack of humility is one of the biggest human flaws, and boy is it evident here in various doses, some doses higher than others, but dare I say all affected. It gets really irritating in high-volume post doses.