NU lands grad transfer F Tydus Verhoeven from UTEP
- Thread starter lou v
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I'm sure we all have our own opinions who contributes quality content and plays nice in the sandbox. Good luck going down that rabbit hole.
My original question was why a user needed to be the first to speak up about it, especially after some of the garbage over the last few days.
If a reasonable user with a well-established history who's not in the middle of everything needs to speak to something like that, it probably should have been addressed long before that post. Good for TheC for giving a damn.
a) There MIGHT be another "high volume" poster. But there's only been one other (maybe two) with a similarly biased agenda in the pitiful 20 years I've been here. And even that guy wasn't trying to get his point across 10-12 times a day during the middle of the season.
So make sure you contact my NU brain probe when the next one hits in 2035 or 2040.
b) The other thing you might consider ... Take it for what it's worth ... This is a very generous community. People may have problems with how a few of the posters have excused so many of Collins' weaknesses. But that generosity isn't limited to the basketball court. This group will give you a pass out here also if you're a pretty big buttwipe, but a reasonable schmuck. I know I've had my days.
And if one or two people out here don't like you ... well, that's just the nature of the Internet beast.
But show me a poster has five, six or ten people from THIS group speak out and go after him, and I'll show you a real (fill in the blank) every time.
You are wasting your time. These points have been made a dozen times over the last 6 months. The board is anemic because 1) we stink and 2) it isn’t worth it to try and have a discussion when it all leads to winning the debate at all costs. EVERY single topic is twisted to lead to the same end game conclusion. It’s Pretzel Logic that brings all points to the same place whether it is off topic or not. Then you a poster who revels in chaos and literally makes every attempt to goat people into responses to shake the tree. The “old timers” have just left because of the BS and don’t care to be part of the circle jerk. It’s exhausting.
One of the old timers sent me this earlier. “ Don’t engage with people who want your energy in exchange for nothing but drama.” I wish I was this strong. At some point.
I don't understand the reticence to discuss NU basketball if one is supposedly a fan of it. As bad as the team has been the last couple of years, I can't imagine why anyone would think that most of the commentary would be positive or why someone would have a problem with people expressing displeasure with the lackluster results. And, if Sec.112 is right that 85-90% of people on the board agree that Coach Collins is doing a poor job and it's time for him to go, I don't understand why people react badly to someone saying that (even if they are saying it repeatedly.)
All of the above seems like obvious places one has to start from if one wants to discuss NU basketball. The sense I get from this board is that there a lot of posters who don't actually want to discuss NU basketball.
This. As a long suffering Sox, Bears, Hawks, Bulls fan, complaining about your team, the lack of progress, the obvious short comings is as Chicago as certain pizzas and hot dogs.
I will use the same 85-90% number to explain it. That’s the percentage of folks complaining about repetition who are on the CC is competent side.
There are a couple of exceptions but that’s what it boils down to. Coincidence? Definitely not.
The latest trend is to point out it’s not about that by pointing out one is now on the CC must go camp. That surely proves it’s purely about repetition or some other BS. Except pretty much all of those now on the CC must go side have moved there for some other reason that is not his incompetence.
Reasons like he could not recruit guys good enough, he’s on probation so he’s doomed anyway, wins or losses ultimately dictate it…
I’m sure someone can come up with more reasons that avoid having to admit one was wrong about CC’s competence.
Where has anyone said they expect positive commentary about this program? That would be ridiculous. If you don’t believe as other very vocal hyper posters do that everything including the Russian invasion of Ukraine is 100% on CCC, you get attacked as being a Homer or worse yet snide comments about not knowing what you are talking about. Couple that with the constant twisting of Everything possible that leads to CCC incompetence at every turn.
I said before the season started were weren’t making the tourney and lacked sufficient talent to consistently win in the B1G. So what happens, the attacks start that I am a CCC apologist. I was constantly told I was wrong. Really? OK. I guess opinions are absolutes to some people as long as they mirror their thoughts .
I have heard MN would make a difference if only that crazy CCC could see it. RY playing more would have somehow lead us to the promised land. He is a great player. You dispute this like many have done and you get shot down as being uninformed. You point our RY’d defense is average at best and again you accused of being ignorant. You get silly arguments like CCC encouraged RY to shoot three’s or doesn’t “like” low post players! There is always a right and wrong with this poster and his band of merry-men. They crave acknowledgment of their esteemed acumen and desire full surrender on every point. It’s not good enough to say CCC should be replaced. They want some type of confirmation on every point “proving” incompetence! It’s damn near impossible to be this polarizing to a group of people that are fans of the program that ultimately concur on the end result.
There are people on here that disagree with posts just because of who the poster is! So who really discusses NU basketball? There is no discussion. You either agree or disagree. Points are never let go. WTF wants to be part of that community?
I would love you to actually posts quotes instead of ridiculous hyperbole. Like the left, you think if you post the ridiculous twist on actual words enough times, that people will associate your version to those posters. And it does work…for some simple minded people. Doesn’t make it true and doesn’t discourage those that you misquote. Just stirs the pot.
Maybe some thicker skin is in order. I disagree with PWB, Ignore, and Gato all the time (I assume those are the three you are talking about). I've been told that I just don't get it many times. So what?
Have some confidence in your position. I think the idea that NU needs to just recruit more Top 50 guys to be successful is fool's gold, but if that's what you think needs to happen, argue for it and ignore the slings and arrows.
I think you're wrong in suggesting that MN and RY playing more wouldn't have made a difference. I don't think it would have gotten the team to the NCAAs, but I'd love to have a discussion about whether it might have gotten the team to the NIT.
It's funny to watch you complain about ridiculous hyperbole and then follow it up with ridiculous hyperbole.
I think I'm objective about Collins. Like everybody else, I thought he was awesome when we made the tournament, but things fell apart and I started looking into what we were doing.
I'm not just winging it. My opinions are based on objective information.
Collins coaches a 35 minute game. The players play freely for 35 minutes and then seize up the last 5 minutes. The problem is we do not have the talent or moxie to knock down shots at the end of the game. Our talent is decent but playing stall ball and getting out of our game is a classic Collins maneuver. This year on first view where are we going to get scoring from the front court unless Hunger plays ahead of his years. Matt Nicholson turns into Zach Eden or Verhoeven becomes Rudy Gobert
Since we haven't talked about +/- since the season ended, I don't really know what some people want.
When I first started posting those numbers, a handful of knowledgeable skeptics told me that the numbers weren't that meaningful. Others said they were absolutely useless.
Now that second group is just not worth engaging on that specific issue, but the people who pointed out the weaknesses actually contributed to the dialogue. I went back and figured out a way to adjust the +/- numbers to reflect individual play. I happen to really like the new numbers, while maintaining respect for the raw +/- numbers, because it is pure, unbiased data. Such data informs decisions and opinions and provides a basis for discussion.
I post a lot because I like NU sports and college basketball in general.
I rarely resort to blatant name-calling, as opposed to several who go there immediately when they don't like what I write.
Hoosboot - Beyond those who already know I respect their opinions, I like reading your stuff and always think twice when you are disagreeing with me.
I don't view anyone on here as unworthy of direct dialog, though some are apparently trying to crush discussion. Don't worry, there will be less and less to talk about until the fall.
When I first started posting those numbers, a handful of knowledgeable skeptics told me that the numbers weren't that meaningful. Others said they were absolutely useless.
Now that second group is just not worth engaging on that specific issue, but the people who pointed out the weaknesses actually contributed to the dialogue. I went back and figured out a way to adjust the +/- numbers to reflect individual play. I happen to really like the new numbers, while maintaining respect for the raw +/- numbers, because it is pure, unbiased data. Such data informs decisions and opinions and provides a basis for discussion.
I post a lot because I like NU sports and college basketball in general.
I rarely resort to blatant name-calling, as opposed to several who go there immediately when they don't like what I write.
Hoosboot - Beyond those who already know I respect their opinions, I like reading your stuff and always think twice when you are disagreeing with me.
I don't view anyone on here as unworthy of direct dialog, though some are apparently trying to crush discussion. Don't worry, there will be less and less to talk about until the fall.
This is my last comment about this. These last several posts are the perfect microcosm of the problem.
If you want to ignore the pretty hard core response to this over a series of months, it really doesn't bother me anymore.
If you want to pretend there's some widespread backlash to criticism of Collins as cover for posters being complete (fill in the blanks), fine.
If you're using these comments as some really odd divider about Collins, good luck with those mental gymnastics.
If you want to spin and alter stats in some ridiculously obvious attempt to win the discussion, go crazy.
If you want to play the victim and pretend an open discussion board is engaging in some form of repression, I'm sorry you don't understand how laughably unpoliced this forum is.
You're right, Hoos, when you say, "I don't understand the reticence to discuss NU basketball if one is supposedly a fan of it." I'm one of several idiots out here who have been talking about some real garbage basketball for a long, long time.
However if I owned the site, I'd be asking why are some of these idiots (me included) who are sick enough to blab away through Byrdsong, O'Neill and Carmody are obviously participating less and talking about it.
People say they're here to enjoy the program, but personally I've seen these guys before. And when you can't be reasonable and walk away from a discussion ... when you're actually trying to win again and again and again ... when you think 10-12 posts per day are going to change minds ... when you can't clearly communicate and need to post 10-12 times a day, that's not a problem with the community. You don't care about a discussion of the program and it's pretty obvious you don't care about the quality of the community. You're in your own little world with whatever you're trying to accomplish.
I'm not sure the board is going to recover from this one. Just let me know when the Reddit board is going up.
If you want to ignore the pretty hard core response to this over a series of months, it really doesn't bother me anymore.
If you want to pretend there's some widespread backlash to criticism of Collins as cover for posters being complete (fill in the blanks), fine.
If you're using these comments as some really odd divider about Collins, good luck with those mental gymnastics.
If you want to spin and alter stats in some ridiculously obvious attempt to win the discussion, go crazy.
If you want to play the victim and pretend an open discussion board is engaging in some form of repression, I'm sorry you don't understand how laughably unpoliced this forum is.
You're right, Hoos, when you say, "I don't understand the reticence to discuss NU basketball if one is supposedly a fan of it." I'm one of several idiots out here who have been talking about some real garbage basketball for a long, long time.
However if I owned the site, I'd be asking why are some of these idiots (me included) who are sick enough to blab away through Byrdsong, O'Neill and Carmody are obviously participating less and talking about it.
People say they're here to enjoy the program, but personally I've seen these guys before. And when you can't be reasonable and walk away from a discussion ... when you're actually trying to win again and again and again ... when you think 10-12 posts per day are going to change minds ... when you can't clearly communicate and need to post 10-12 times a day, that's not a problem with the community. You don't care about a discussion of the program and it's pretty obvious you don't care about the quality of the community. You're in your own little world with whatever you're trying to accomplish.
I'm not sure the board is going to recover from this one. Just let me know when the Reddit board is going up.
Its as if you want to blame me for the state of the basketball program.
I disagree with almost everything you wrote above.
You are making wild assumptions about someone you don't know and making it very personal. And yet you complain about how posters make things personal.
I have no agenda whatsoever, other than to support NU sports and talk about the teams, whether they are doing well or poorly.
Too many people on here get upset when presented with facts that suggest their opinions are inaccurate. On top of that, the majority of that group holsd silly grudges against people who dare to debate them. The better participants add tremendous insight and roll with the punches. I enjoy discussions with those people in particular.
I am very confident that I have raised the level of discussion in here. Most participants don't have the time or desire to go digging up information about a struggling team. There is relatively little posting of factual information and relatively little interest in what is going on in NCAA basketball outside the NU bubble.
Thats disappointing to me, but it is quite telling. On the other hand, this IS the free board.
I see a post like this and I wonder if I should write a follow up. It's sad to wonder, because it's solely based on the delicate sensibilities of those who seem to believe there is some daily quota for posting. While said quota really only seems to be directed at certain posters.
I can tell you you definitely elevated the discussion. I have, multiple times, disagreed with you though, overall, I do tend to agree with your positions. Example, I thought the criticism of the Gonzaga game, except the hissy fit a the end part, was a bit far fetched. But that's how things go, there is no way one agrees with everything, and that's normal and, dare I say, healthy.
I don't agree with Bob/Ignore on everything either. I don't care for turning basketball arguments into a left/right thing. Or that these issues we are discussing have something more than a slight whiff of being related to freedom of speech. Bob is a righty, I am a lefty. Go figure. I could not care less what Bob or anyone is around here. I come here for NU and basketball. Again, disagreeing on something, or not even wanting to engage is normal, expected and healthy.
Just to balance things, not that I have not written this before. Some positives about CC:
1) Recruiting - I know it has not produced the results we hoped for, though it has taken us dancing. We have regurgitated data about it. I thought it was pretty eye popping to compare rankings of our team versus Iowa and Rutgers.
Additionally, we argue how our players don't top the Juie/Koble/Shurna/Vedran/Crawford. Arguably true and all those guys would be tremendous additions to our team today. But that ignores the roster those guys were surrounded with. Today, we have B1G caliber athletes running up and down the Welsh Ryan. At the time those guys played, we did not. I, personally, don't need more than an eye test to conclude that. I had never seen anything even comparable before CC arrived.
2) Retaining players - The Young situation is all levels of sad. Exacerbated by the very passionate debate about his playing time. After all, that debate was a 2 year thing. And we do have a built in advantage on retention: the guys that come to Evanston tend to value the degree a lot more than the average college baller. Still, CC gets credit on retention. Rap/Benson/Gaines... or on the recruiting trail Lathon... Don't want to say it would not have been better if they did not leave, but it does not seem to me they were big losses. And surely our history of bleeding talent ranks higher than the majority of college programs. Kopp was, to me, a bigger loss than to most around here. Brumbaugh decommitted and that is a TBD situation. And Young now left. Those are recent, and that is a worrying trend. But, overall, for his tenure, CC, for all his shortcomings has guys coming back.
Interesting, because of the Ryan Young transfer, I thought about the guys who have left NU after getting their undergrad degree, while still holding eligibility. Nance was logical - he may go pro, he may return to college. Since he stated publicly that he is finished playing for NU, it would be a pleasant shock to see him return (but probably not for Matt Nicholson). Young was classy, but he did leave in somewhat odd circumstances. Benson graduated in 3 years and left when the starting job was his to grab (with redshirt Young and sophomore Nance competing against him). Gaines graduated in 4 and transferred to Siena. Aaron Falzon was essentially the same situation, going to grad school at Quinnipiac.
Kopp bailed on NU before he got his degree (as far as I can ascertain). So did Ivanauskas, Brown, Coleman-Jones. Not many, really.
So, my impression is that guys who value the degree are going to stick around until they get it. A small contingent of graduates with remaining eligibility have moved on to other programs. Has anybody re-upped at NU after they had their NU diploma? (that is a question, not an opinion).
In my opinion, if we are recruiting a high school kid and he says something like "I don't care where I go to school, I just want to play basketball" we should immediately stop recruiting him.
When I read the news of the Brumbaugh signing, I wrote that I'd hold off about getting excited until he was actually enrolled at NU. "Not the kind of kid we should be targeting." Well we all know what happened.
I agree with you that Roper, Simmons, Nicholson, Barnhizer and Berry are all talented athletes and Collins deserves credit for bringing them in. Like you, I've said that all along. Our problem is not talent.
If I had to guess, I think Texas threw NIL money at Brumbaugh as that was just about the time the NIL craziness was starting with the "corporations" popping up in SEC land with the sole purpose of paying players.