Only 5 Seniors Starting On O & D combined

[TuckyFB]

If you needed any more evidence that this team is very young.

The Depth Chart for the Miss St game only has 5 seniors on Offense and Defense combined.

http://www.kentucky.com/sports/coll...football/jen-smith-blog/article108726672.html

 

[gossie21_rivals69805]

14 players on the Defense 2-deep are sophomores or younger.

11 on offense.

 

[NavyCat88]

That is a good stand-alone statement in year one or two, but in year four it drives several follow-on questions: "Why do we have only five seniors on offense and defense combined?.....How many did we start with in the recruiting class?.....Was there any quality in the class?......Did we retain and develop the talent?......How many miss-hits?.....How many bad-character players that self destructed?....How many seniors were injured?......Has the senior class been recruited-over with better talent?.....How many juniors and sophomores have been retained/developed in the underclasses?.....Do our numbers of juniors and sophs indicate we're going to have significantly more senior starters next year and the year after?"

The answers to the questions above may give us insight into whether or not we are getting better from a recruitment, retention and development stand point. If we're poised for 20-30 experienced, bigger-faster-stronger juniors and seniors in the two-deep next year or the year after....we're improving. If we start each season "young" with only a handful of quality seniors.....we have systemic problems in recruiting and development that time will not fix.

 

[Comebakatz3]

The good things are that these guys have some pretty solid backups. Collins is a FB and so he isn't a huge loss. Timmons is at WR and we are stacked there. McClain will be somewhat hard to replace, but we have some bodies that can definitely take his role. The only scary one is Miggins, but even Bell has come on lately and has done just as well as Miggins. However, we do need to fill that gap and find someone that can provide some depth there.

 

[The-Hack]

NavyCat88, I would agree with you if it were year 5. Year four of Stoops should have significant contributions from the redshirts of the previous staff's recruits. Even with that, the first year of recruiting/building often can be shaky, and all staffs have had to go after kids on the edge academically, etc.

 

[TuckyFB]

I can't seem to nudge the feeling of what could have been if Hatcher and Tubman were on this team.

 

[reflaine]

Well here is the answer to why do we have only five seniors: Stoops got here after Christmas and that recruiting class was pretty much in place. He added timmons, hatcher and maybe one other. But the rest of that class was committed to the previous staff. Although this is considered by some as his first recruiting class. It really is not fair to give him the entire blame for it. He had eight weeks to sign a class and it obvious you don't start recruiting kids unless you are Bama after the season. Hatcher is gone for discipline. Most of the others didn't fit in to the style we play and got recruited over. It happens.

The reason we have a lot of freshman and sophomores are the perception of the program are changing. The sr and true jr classes committed to a 2-10 team and an unproven head coach. The the sophomore and freshman class committed to a team who was showing some upside and usually get better players as your win total improves.

 

[DSmith21]

Would have been one less senior if not for Darius West's season ending injury.

 

[anon_7tbtqcx308nxh]

That is a good stand-alone statement in year one or two, but in year four it drives several follow-on questions: "Why do we have only five seniors on offense and defense combined?.....How many did we start with in the recruiting class?.....Was there any quality in the class?......Did we retain and develop the talent?......How many miss-hits?.....How many bad-character players that self destructed?....How many seniors were injured?......Has the senior class been recruited-over with better talent?.....How many juniors and sophomores have been retained/developed in the underclasses?.....Do our numbers of juniors and sophs indicate we're going to have significantly more senior starters next year and the year after?"

The answers to the questions above may give us insight into whether or not we are getting better from a recruitment, retention and development stand point. If we're poised for 20-30 experienced, bigger-faster-stronger juniors and seniors in the two-deep next year or the year after....we're improving. If we start each season "young" with only a handful of quality seniors.....we have systemic problems in recruiting and development that time will not fix.

I think I can answer some of these, but it mostly boils down to Stoops recruiting classes got better every year causing transfers from the 2013 and 2014 classes. Right now, the defense has five sophomores that could play in the NFL. Maybe as many as seven.

The offensive line is getting better and also has legitimate NFL prospects between Toth, Stallings, George AA, Nick Haynes, and a few years down the line Landon Young will have a chance. If Boom returns the offense is even more lethal next season. CJ Conrad will make a NFL roster. Maybe Garret Johnson and Dorian Baker.

Outside of Boom and Toth, all those guys will return next season. I think they've all developed to varying degrees in recent years.

 

[Comebakatz3]

That is a good stand-alone statement in year one or two, but in year four it drives several follow-on questions: "Why do we have only five seniors on offense and defense combined?.....How many did we start with in the recruiting class?.....Was there any quality in the class?......Did we retain and develop the talent?......How many miss-hits?.....How many bad-character players that self destructed?....How many seniors were injured?......Has the senior class been recruited-over with better talent?.....How many juniors and sophomores have been retained/developed in the underclasses?.....Do our numbers of juniors and sophs indicate we're going to have significantly more senior starters next year and the year after?"

The answers to the questions above may give us insight into whether or not we are getting better from a recruitment, retention and development stand point. If we're poised for 20-30 experienced, bigger-faster-stronger juniors and seniors in the two-deep next year or the year after....we're improving. If we start each season "young" with only a handful of quality seniors.....we have systemic problems in recruiting and development that time will not fix.

Well, the recruiting class we're referring to was the last of Joker and first of Stoops. So, a lot of the recruits that we got that were good recruits were at the last minute. Kemp redshirted, Haynes redshirted, Meyers redshirted, Alexander Montgomery redshirted, McWilson doesn't start, but is a heavy contributor and is 3rd on the team in tackles, Badet redshirted and is starting, Meadows redshirted and is starting. So, there are a lot more than just the 5 seniors. Many of these guys in the 2013 class are contributors, despite the fact that Stoops was on limited time recruiting. Further, some of these guys, like Meyers, have been replaced to some degree by players like Stallings. Kemp has been recruited over. So, the class was pretty solid, but a lot of its best talent redshirted. Some of it, like Z'Darius Smith were JUCO guys that are now gone, but there is a good number of players still there out of the 2013 that are helping. The flaw comes with the lack of quality in the 2012 class by Joker.

 

[DACats86]

That vaunted '14 class had a bit of fool's gold in it, and if you really want to wretch, go back and look at the roster when Stoops took over. Stoops has made his share of mistakes, but he does at least try to remedy and/or learn from them, but he honestly started with a team that could not beat Alice Lloyd (assuming they grabbed 22 guys off campus and formed a team)...

 

[13space82]

Well, the recruiting class we're referring to was the last of Joker and first of Stoops. So, a lot of the recruits that we got that were good recruits were at the last minute. Kemp redshirted, Haynes redshirted, Meyers redshirted, Alexander Montgomery redshirted, McWilson doesn't start, but is a heavy contributor and is 3rd on the team in tackles, Badet redshirted and is starting, Meadows redshirted and is starting. So, there are a lot more than just the 5 seniors. Many of these guys in the 2013 class are contributors, despite the fact that Stoops was on limited time recruiting. Further, some of these guys, like Meyers, have been replaced to some degree by players like Stallings. Kemp has been recruited over. So, the class was pretty solid, but a lot of its best talent redshirted. Some of it, like Z'Darius Smith were JUCO guys that are now gone, but there is a good number of players still there out of the 2013 that are helping. The flaw comes with the lack of quality in the 2012 class by Joker.

Kemp did not redshirt

 

[Comebakatz3]

Kemp did not redshirt

You're right. I had a brain fart there. Kemp didn't redshirt. He is merely one that has been surpassed by at least one better underclassman. Sorry for that mix up.

 

[WildCard]

That is a young team but it was "expected". For the record Phil Steele ranked the 2016 Cats at #84 in returning experience. I think the real question here is "does returning experience mean winning more next year"? I think the general answer is: "Yes...if you do fairly well this year".

Naturally it is hard to quantify but I have long believed that "doing better next year" is not about returnees but rather about returnees that did pretty good this year (i.e., W/L record). By Steel's metrics the 2015 Cats were #23 in returning experience but only managed to repeat 2014's 5 win season.

There are always outliers but I think 6 win (or more) in the current year is a decent indicator of whether to expect more from a team that will be returning a bunch of guys next year. Consider the following "experience vs future performance" metrics (note: this data has to be "mined", school by school, so this is a very limited data set):

I had previously charted the difference in wins between 2014 and 2015 for all of the 65 P5 schools and had that data handy. I compared that list against Steel's list of top 40 returning experience for 2015. For the 2015 season, 18 P5 schools were among Steel's top 40 teams in returning experience. I "merged" those two data sets with the following results:

> Four of those 18 "high returnee teams" did not improve in 2015 but were coming off very successful 2014 seasons (i.e., 9, 10, 11 and 12 win seasons).

>> Three of these 4 were only 1 game short of their 2014 mark, 1 was just 2 games short (falling from a 12 win to 10 win season). IOW, a very successful 2015 if not quite as good as a very, very successful 2014.​

> Two of the 18 "high returnee teams"posted the same number of wins in 2015 as they did in 2014 (UK, 5 wins and VPI, 7 wins)

> Of the 12 remaining "high returnee teams" 7 were coming off at least a 6 win season in 2014.

Collectively, this very limited data seems to suggest that returning experience most likely results in a W/L improvement when it is returning experience from a "successful" (i.e., 6+ win) team the year before.

Clear as mud? Meaningful? [laughing]

Peace

 

[Kybluedude]

I think I can answer some of these, but it mostly boils down to Stoops recruiting classes got better every year causing transfers from the 2013 and 2014 classes. Right now, the defense has five sophomores that could play in the NFL. Maybe as many as seven.

The offensive line is getting better and also has legitimate NFL prospects between Toth, Stallings, George AA, Nick Haynes, and a few years down the line Landon Young will have a chance. If Boom returns the offense is even more lethal next season. CJ Conrad will make a NFL roster. Maybe Garret Johnson and Dorian Baker.

Outside of Boom and Toth, all those guys will return next season. I think they've all developed to varying degrees in recent years.

Boom is a Jr

 

[dallasg23]

I still can't figure out how we are the only team that doesn't get older. UK football has Benjamin Button decease.

 

[jauk11]

I still can't figure out how we are the only team that doesn't get older. UK football has Benjamin Button decease.

Fountain of youth?

Should be emphasized in recruiting.

 

[anon_7tbtqcx308nxh]

Boom is a Jr

Correct but I think he leaves early.

 

[UKWinsAgainYep]

I just know that I see more talent on Defense and Offense than I've ever seen at UK....watching for over 30 years.

We just still need depth at this point. But we have more talent than in the past.

We desperately need some JUCO DTs to clog up the D-Line for next season.

If we can get some DTs for some depth, we will have a very solid defense next season.

This Defense would have been VERY stout with Hatcher, Tubman, Meant, West, etc. At least 2 of those 4 would/will play in the NFL.

 

[RackOps]

I don't think we can blame Stoops for the major attrition with the 2014 class.....just about everyone here was happy as hell with it at the time.

 

[Lost In FL]

Stoops brought on JUCOs: Smith, Borden, Blue and Lewis (not a bad bunch by any means) and also Willis.
Also added Hytchye, Meant and Hatcher that didn't work out unfortunately.
The RS's mentioned earlier: Meadows, Badet and Haynes, so none of them are Sr's. (Montgomery?)
That leaves Timmons, Kemp, McWilson from Stoops' portion of the class to be Seniors. All contribute.

From Joker's commits: McClain is the only Sr, right? and Meyers, Hyde, MacGinnis (?) and Bell (in a round-about way) are essentially rJr's.

So, look at this another way, we could have 8 RS Sr's next year. (Haynes, Badet, Montgomery (?), Meadows, Hyde, MacGinnis (?), Meyers and Bell*)

We could also have another 6 true Seniors next year (Elam, Randolph, Bone, Johnson, Boom and Baker). So, next year we could have 14 seniors. It seems to always be "next year" ...

 

[sluggercatfan]

Correct but I think he leaves early.

Mistake I think if he does...Hopefully next year's Oline and team will be much improved so he and Benny should be quite the duo.

 

[Beatle Bum]

McWilson, McClain and Miggins are seniors. We need DL depth. Replacing Miggins will be tough. A healthy West should help at safety. Hopefully Walker can step up there, as well.

Otherwise, on defense, when you are playing so many athletic sophs, experience is huge. Jones, Allen and Ware will get better. Allen still needs to build his body. Pringle is getting better and will get better. Brown, Walker, Kash, Firios are getting to the point where they will be pressing for minutes. Bonner and Daniel, as well. This is depth with potential. We have true freshmen DBs that would be on the field in the past. We lose Harmon, but there is young talent behind Baity and Westry.

Experience is the key. The defense could be very good next year. I would like to see a couple of DT Jucos, in addition to Hoskins. I think Looney and Cross, and perhaps Bannerman, will add some depth. But, Hoskins and one or two other Jucos could help up front right away.

 

[3kidsandme]

That is a good stand-alone statement in year one or two, but in year four it drives several follow-on questions: "Why do we have only five seniors on offense and defense combined?.....How many did we start with in the recruiting class?.....Was there any quality in the class?......Did we retain and develop the talent?......How many miss-hits?.....How many bad-character players that self destructed?....How many seniors were injured?......Has the senior class been recruited-over with better talent?.....How many juniors and sophomores have been retained/developed in the underclasses?.....Do our numbers of juniors and sophs indicate we're going to have significantly more senior starters next year and the year after?"

The answers to the questions above may give us insight into whether or not we are getting better from a recruitment, retention and development stand point. If we're poised for 20-30 experienced, bigger-faster-stronger juniors and seniors in the two-deep next year or the year after....we're improving. If we start each season "young" with only a handful of quality seniors.....we have systemic problems in recruiting and development that time will not fix.

Stoops has 2 full classes on the field 14, 15. His first class he had to hurry. If you look at it the way it is we are right on schedule

 

[WildcatofNati]

I just know that I see more talent on Defense and Offense than I've ever seen at UK....watching for over 30 years.

We just still need depth at this point. But we have more talent than in the past.

We desperately need some JUCO DTs to clog up the D-Line for next season.

If we can get some DTs for some depth, we will have a very solid defense next season.

This Defense would have been VERY stout with Hatcher, Tubman, Meant, West, etc. At least 2 of those 4 would/will play in the NFL.

Which two? Too early to tell about West. Hatcher and Meant are longshots. Tubman would seem to be as well, unless he really lights the world on fire at Austin Peay.

 

[Pike 96]

That is a young team but it was "expected". For the record Phil Steele ranked the 2016 Cats at #84 in returning experience. I think the real question here is "does returning experience mean winning more next year"? I think the general answer is: "Yes...if you do fairly well this year".

Naturally it is hard to quantify but I have long believed that "doing better next year" is not about returnees but rather about returnees that did pretty good this year (i.e., W/L record). By Steel's metrics the 2015 Cats were #23 in returning experience but only managed to repeat 2014's 5 win season.

There are always outliers but I think 6 win (or more) in the current year is a decent indicator of whether to expect more from a team that will be returning a bunch of guys next year. Consider the following "experience vs future performance" metrics (note: this data has to be "mined", school by school, so this is a very limited data set):

I had previously charted the difference in wins between 2014 and 2015 for all of the 65 P5 schools and had that data handy. I compared that list against Steel's list of top 40 returning experience for 2015. For the 2015 season, 18 P5 schools were among Steel's top 40 teams in returning experience. I "merged" those two data sets with the following results:

> Four of those 18 "high returnee teams" did not improve in 2015 but were coming off very successful 2014 seasons (i.e., 9, 10, 11 and 12 win seasons).

>> Three of these 4 were only 1 game short of their 2014 mark, 1 was just 2 games short (falling from a 12 win to 10 win season). IOW, a very successful 2015 if not quite as good as a very, very successful 2014.​

> Two of the 18 "high returnee teams"posted the same number of wins in 2015 as they did in 2014 (UK, 5 wins and VPI, 7 wins)

> Of the 12 remaining "high returnee teams" 7 were coming off at least a 6 win season in 2014.

Collectively, this very limited data seems to suggest that returning experience most likely results in a W/L improvement when it is returning experience from a "successful" (i.e., 6+ win) team the year before.

Clear as mud? Meaningful? [laughing]

Peace

Interesting...thx. this just speaks to the high importance of this team to claw to 7 wins. Really should have a,huge effect on next year's success. Very reminiscent to the 2006 and 2007 seasons.

 

[SanAntonioCat_rivals376502]

Well here is the answer to why do we have only five seniors: Stoops got here after Christmas and that recruiting class was pretty much in place. He added timmons, hatcher and maybe one other. But the rest of that class was committed to the previous staff. Although this is considered by some as his first recruiting class. It really is not fair to give him the entire blame for it. He had eight weeks to sign a class and it obvious you don't start recruiting kids unless you are Bama after the season. Hatcher is gone for discipline. Most of the others didn't fit in to the style we play and got recruited over. It happens.

The reason we have a lot of freshman and sophomores are the perception of the program are changing. The sr and true jr classes committed to a 2-10 team and an unproven head coach. The the sophomore and freshman class committed to a team who was showing some upside and usually get better players as your win total improves.

Thank you for an honest appraisal few on this board consider in a total rebuild.

 

[Catlogic15]

With Barker's back issues, we may still have QB concerns next year. That would be a bummer with all the good news above.

 

[Ukbrassowtipin]

If he's in year 4, that would mean the seniors were from his first year if they are true seniors, or jokers last yr if they are redshirt seniors.....obviously. I think what seniors he has next year are a bigger sign. As in that should be a bigger senior class. He started recruiting guys his first year when? And what did that class look like with a brand new, first year HC recruiting to a perennial loser. His class should have been much better in year 2, hence next year should have more seniors/redshirt juniors

 

[willievic]

Boom is a Jr

Do you think Boom will go pro after this year. There is a lot of speculation that he will.

OLD STOLL FIELD GUY!

 

[mrhotdice]

That is a good stand-alone statement in year one or two, but in year four it drives several follow-on questions: "Why do we have only five seniors on offense and defense combined?.....How many did we start with in the recruiting class?.....Was there any quality in the class?......Did we retain and develop the talent?......How many miss-hits?.....How many bad-character players that self destructed?....How many seniors were injured?......Has the senior class been recruited-over with better talent?.....How many juniors and sophomores have been retained/developed in the underclasses?.....Do our numbers of juniors and sophs indicate we're going to have significantly more senior starters next year and the year after?"

The answers to the questions above may give us insight into whether or not we are getting better from a recruitment, retention and development stand point. If we're poised for 20-30 experienced, bigger-faster-stronger juniors and seniors in the two-deep next year or the year after....we're improving. If we start each season "young" with only a handful of quality seniors.....we have systemic problems in recruiting and development that time will not fix.

I think in reality it's year thre. Stoops first year recruiting was basically a take what's left situation. Year 2-3-4 are really his recruiting years. So to me, this is year 4 on paper but year 3 in reality.

 

[3kidsandme]

Do you think Boom will go pro after this year. There is a lot of speculation that he will.

OLD STOLL FIELD GUY!

This is not a knock on Boom but where is he gonna go? Hes a 3rd down back in the nfl and he comes off the field in those situations in college. Gran is not dumb the fact we do not pass to Boom tells me he cant catch very well. He needs to show scouts he can catch the ball his Senior year if he wants to make a roster.

 

[SanAntonioCat_rivals376502]

Do you think Boom will go pro after this year. There is a lot of speculation that he will.

OLD STOLL FIELD GUY!

At this point, it is speculation. Boom would be best served to return in my opinion.

 

[GoCatsForever2k15]

Well here is the answer to why do we have only five seniors: Stoops got here after Christmas and that recruiting class was pretty much in place. He added timmons, hatcher and maybe one other. But the rest of that class was committed to the previous staff. Although this is considered by some as his first recruiting class. It really is not fair to give him the entire blame for it. He had eight weeks to sign a class and it obvious you don't start recruiting kids unless you are Bama after the season. Hatcher is gone for discipline. Most of the others didn't fit in to the style we play and got recruited over. It happens.

The reason we have a lot of freshman and sophomores are the perception of the program are changing. The sr and true jr classes committed to a 2-10 team and an unproven head coach. The the sophomore and freshman class committed to a team who was showing some upside and usually get better players as your win total improves.

Stoops certainly had a tall hill to climb with that class, but he was responsible for a looot more of the guys in it than just a couple.

 

[merrimanm]

I can't seem to nudge the feeling of what could have been if Hatcher and Tubman were on this team.

Or even more than Tubman, what if we had Meant?........and those other 2? Or, it may have been a blessing with 2 of them. Maybe they were more trouble than we knew.

 

[docholiday51]

With Barker's back issues, we may still have QB concerns next year. That would be a bummer with all the good news above.

A very true statement,we just can't get over that hump,we have had QB issues since Stoops got here. I don't mean this as a total knock on Stoops but we have had almost no stability at the QB position for 4 years,maybe it is due in part to 3 OC's in four years,but there is no doubt that the QB issue has held us back to some degree.

 

[jauk11]

Or even more than Tubman, what if we had Meant?........and those other 2? Or, it may have been a blessing with 2 of them. Maybe they were more trouble than we knew.

Weird how Transfer U seems to live on the edge with maybe a majority of their players and don't seem to get bit, but then maybe the major coverups, (and practice doing it) is a major factor in that. it has to be attractive to a lot of them to know your coaches and AD will go to extremes to keep you eligible, just win baby. No doubt in my mind that their reputation for coverups attracts a lot of good players that are marginal character wise.

I would never want to stoop to their level (campaigned against BP on here, you or I would still be in jail in Arkansas and while abortions may be a woman;s choice isn't arranging and expediting one kind of sleazy, he had a plan--------AND the money to carry it out).

But UK's scaredy cat approach to the incompetent NCAA is ridiculous and puts us at a big disadvantage. Along with worrying about a possible lawuit and ignoring the innocent until proven guilty principal that cost us Tubman.

But just bad luck in losing our senior four star getting stopped for doing 9 miles over the speed limit on the freeway, most drivers minimum, unless something else was involved-------or maybe good luck in getting rid of a cancer.