OT: HVAC refrigerant question

[CFLion]

So one of my 20 year old R-22 AC units crapped the bed. I have a replacement quote for 2 options, one using R410a refrigerant, which is due to be gradually phased out, and one using R454b, the latest "environmentally friendly" refrigerant.

410a units can no longer be manufactured as of Jan 1, 2025. The refrigerant is still available with no scheduled date for phase out.

Key points:

1. My HVAC guy says that he is still selling R410a units because he bought a bunch before the end of last year and in his opinion they perform better than R454b. The 410 unit does have a higher SEER so maybe he's right.

2. Eventually, but who knows how when, 410a will be harder to get. That being said, he told me if I wanted to just try recharging my existing R22 unit we could do that because he still has the it. R22 was phased out in 2020. Although tempting, I decided it was time to get a new unit.

3. AC systems shouldn't need ever be recharged unless there is a leak.

3. The R410a unit is $1200 less.

Thoughts?

 

[ClarkstonMark]

If you want to delay the big ticket, charging your current unit should get you a few years ... that is what I did 5ish years ago before replacing last year.
I don't have an opinion on 410a vs 454b, other than the guy is correct, 410a will be around to re-charge for a long time

 

[s1uggo72]

So one of my 20 year old R-22 AC units crapped the bed. I have a replacement quote for 2 options, one using R410a refrigerant, which is due to be gradually phased out, and one using R454b, the latest "environmentally friendly" refrigerant.

410a units can no longer be manufactured as of Jan 1, 2025. The refrigerant is still available with no scheduled date for phase out.

Key points:

1. My HVAC guy says that he is still selling R410a units because he bought a bunch before the end of last year and in his opinion they perform better than R454b. The 410 unit does have a higher SEER so maybe he's right.

2. Eventually, but who knows how when, 410a will be harder to get. That being said, he told me if I wanted to just try recharging my existing R22 unit we could do that because he still has the it. R22 was phased out in 2020. Although tempting, I decided it was time to get a new unit.

3. AC systems shouldn't need ever be recharged unless there is a leak.

3. The R410a unit is $1200 less.

Thoughts?

and even if there is a leak, they make a 'stop leak' you can use in the mean time. My stop leak is going on 3 yrs.

 

[PSUAVLNC]

I'm a semi retired HVAC contractor in NC, sounds like your HVAC guy is a straight shooter. If it were me I'd probably go with the R454B but honestly I think its a wash. If the 410 unit is a little less expensive I might go with that. When R410A went on the chopping block I bought new units for my house since the ones I have are 17 years old (Mitsubishi mini split heat pumps). My old units still run so the new ones have been in the garage for a couple years now.

This is just me, but I wouldn't touch an R22 unit. I know other contractors have paid pretty big fines for improper handling. I won't touch them.

Can I ask you a question? What was your total quote for the R410 change out and is it a heat pump or duel fuel unit? How about the R454b unit?

 

[Yogiman71]

Nothing stops my Trane

 

[VicVaselino]

Ice cubes, you can never go wrong with ice cubes.

 

[VicVaselino]

Ice cubes, you can never go wrong with ice cubes.

Oh, i almost forgot. A fan, blowing across the cubes. Never forget the fan.

 

[Nittering Nabob]

So one of my 20 year old R-22 AC units crapped the bed. I have a replacement quote for 2 options, one using R410a refrigerant, which is due to be gradually phased out, and one using R454b, the latest "environmentally friendly" refrigerant.

410a units can no longer be manufactured as of Jan 1, 2025. The refrigerant is still available with no scheduled date for phase out.

Key points:

1. My HVAC guy says that he is still selling R410a units because he bought a bunch before the end of last year and in his opinion they perform better than R454b. The 410 unit does have a higher SEER so maybe he's right.

2. Eventually, but who knows how when, 410a will be harder to get. That being said, he told me if I wanted to just try recharging my existing R22 unit we could do that because he still has the it. R22 was phased out in 2020. Although tempting, I decided it was time to get a new unit.

3. AC systems shouldn't need ever be recharged unless there is a leak.

3. The R410a unit is $1200 less.

Thoughts?

You didn't tell us what part of your HVAC system "crapped the bed". It could have been the exterior compressor or the copper coils in the condenser (my guess). In any event it probably doesn't matter since you got 20 years of service which is pretty good.

It's not worth throwing $$$ at an old R-22 system because the cost of the now scarce/banned refrigerant is more expensive than replacing the compressor and condenser with either 410 or 454.

I'm not yet sold on R454 as an effective refrigerant. I'd replace the system with R410 (widely available) and be done with it.

 

[JakkL]

My just under 4 year old Goodman 16 SEER compressor is being replaced tomorrow. Noticed it wasn't cooling enough when it was in the 90s. Tech added a half pound or R410A. No improvement. Not leaking. It just isn't working properly. Replacement compressor is covered by warranty, but was told labor etc. will be close to $2k. Expected to take them 6 hours to replace. Does this cost seem right? It was installed and serviced by UGI HVAC aka HomeServe.

 

[m.knox]

So one of my 20 year old R-22 AC units crapped the bed. I have a replacement quote for 2 options, one using R410a refrigerant, which is due to be gradually phased out, and one using R454b, the latest "environmentally friendly" refrigerant.

410a units can no longer be manufactured as of Jan 1, 2025. The refrigerant is still available with no scheduled date for phase out.

Key points:

1. My HVAC guy says that he is still selling R410a units because he bought a bunch before the end of last year and in his opinion they perform better than R454b. The 410 unit does have a higher SEER so maybe he's right.

2. Eventually, but who knows how when, 410a will be harder to get. That being said, he told me if I wanted to just try recharging my existing R22 unit we could do that because he still has the it. R22 was phased out in 2020. Although tempting, I decided it was time to get a new unit.

3. AC systems shouldn't need ever be recharged unless there is a leak.

3. The R410a unit is $1200 less.

Thoughts?

When I last replaced my system 15 - 20 years ago, it was a similar situation. An old refrigerant was on the way out, and a new one was on the way in. I got three quotes. Two guys quoted me the old refrigerant with lower SEER than than the Bryant contractor who quoted me the new refrigerant AT A LOWER PRICE....

No brainer in that case.

I'd get a few more quotes from different contractors just to try to make sense of things. My predisposition is to go with the new refrigerant, but as you suggest, you really shouldn't be needing a recharge.

 

[Nittering Nabob]

My just under 4 year old Goodman 16 SEER compressor is being replaced tomorrow. Noticed it wasn't cooling enough when it was in the 90s. Tech added a half pound or R410A. No improvement. Not leaking. It just isn't working properly. Replacement compressor is covered by warranty, but was told labor etc. will be close to $2k. Expected to take them 6 hours to replace. Does this cost seem right? It was installed and serviced by UGI HVAC aka HomeServe.

The Goodman stuff is complete crap, but that might not be your problem. Goodman was bought out by Daiken about 5-6 years ago, but I don't know if their quality has improved as a result.

I would insist on all of the refrigerant lines emanating from and returning to the compressor, being pressure tested to ensure they're not leaking. Even a small pinhole leak in the lines (bad solder job at a connection) will cause an HVAC system to gradually lose refrigerant thus causing the compressor to gradually overwork itself and fail.

$2000 Labor / 6 hours =$333/hour seems a tad high, but is probably the going rate in the Northeast.

 

[PSUAVLNC]

My just under 4 year old Goodman 16 SEER compressor is being replaced tomorrow. Noticed it wasn't cooling enough when it was in the 90s. Tech added a half pound or R410A. No improvement. Not leaking. It just isn't working properly. Replacement compressor is covered by warranty, but was told labor etc. will be close to $2k. Expected to take them 6 hours to replace. Does this cost seem right? It was installed and serviced by UGI HVAC aka HomeServe.

There's got to be more to the story my friend - A compressor works or it does not, there's no in between. I am blown away when I see what service companies charge these days. I could replace a compressor in three hours max. It would pay you to get a second opinion. Indoor and outdoor Coils clean?? Because that's what it sounds like to me.

 

[Bison13]

Had something similar happen earlier this spring. HVAC company had a bunch of 410s left so I got one of those and they threw in a new hot water tank with it. I figured I saved enough money between the 410 being cheaper and actually a little more efficient and the tank that even if it goes a couple years earlier than expected, it will be worth it.

 

[PSUFBFAN]

Nothing stops my Trane

Going on 23 years with my Trane(s). No issues ... knock on wood!

 

[Nittany.Lion]

I'm a semi retired HVAC contractor in NC, sounds like your HVAC guy is a straight shooter. If it were me I'd probably go with the R454B but honestly I think its a wash. If the 410 unit is a little less expensive I might go with that. When R410A went on the chopping block I bought new units for my house since the ones I have are 17 years old (Mitsubishi mini split heat pumps). My old units still run so the new ones have been in the garage for a couple years now.

This is just me, but I wouldn't touch an R22 unit. I know other contractors have paid pretty big fines for improper handling. I won't touch them.

Can I ask you a question? What was your total quote for the R410 change out and is it a heat pump or duel fuel unit? How about the R454b unit?

I replaced two systems (a 3-ton and a 2-ton) two and a half years ago. I had Lennox units, 13 SEER AC/90% eff furnace that were replaced with Lennox 18 SEER/96% eff units with variable speed compressors and air handling units. My electricity usage decreased by ~35% during the AC season, and my gas usage decreased by ~20% during the heating season.

Another huge benefit of the new units is the much reduced air noise due to reduced air flow through the ducts. While the manufacturers label/market the blowers in the AHU as variable speed, they're not actually variable speed. The more accurate label would be "multi-speed," as the blower only has two speeds when heating and 4 while cooling. The compressor may actually be variable speed, but I never really looked into it.

The cost for the new systems was $19k; the premium for the "variable" speed compressor and air handler was only about $1k as the contractor was offering larger discounts on them at the time. My neighbor just replaced his Lennox systems within the last month and paid $21k without the variable speed features or 96% eff. furnaces.

 

[nittanyfan333]

There's got to be more to the story my friend - A compressor works or it does not, there's no in between. I am blown away when I see what service companies charge these days. I could replace a compressor in three hours max. It would pay you to get a second opinion. Indoor and outdoor Coils clean?? Because that's what it sounds like to me.

so i just had an issue with my trane unit. our upstairs unit (goodman) popped a leak in the condenser coil so we had to have that replaced. While they replaced that, I had them do a maintenance on my train unit. that was about a month ago when (also here in NC, Fayetteville area) we ran into that 100 degree week long heatwave. The system wouldn't dehumidify below 58% (set at 50%), and from 5-8pm, wouldn't cool below 77 (set at 75). First time having that happen with this unit. Then one day the outside condenser just stopped working. Thought capacitor but it was fine. called a tech, and he initially thought the EEV went bad (had low power), but come to find out it was low on freon (410a). filled it up and ran just fine for 2 days, then we ran into the same humidity and temp issue in the evenings. called them back to leak test and didn't find one. just chalked it up to the heat we've had down here.

my conspiracy hat says something happened when they did the maintenance because since then it's not keeping up. also, i don't know how it would have been low on juice because i've never (in the 5 years) had a maintenance, so it couldn't be cumulative gauge hookup.

but they couldn't find anything....

the compressor issue has me thinking....

 

[LB99]

Going on 23 years with my Trane(s). No issues ... knock on wood!

My Trane is 7 yrs old. I just had to replace the capacitor on it in the middle of a heat wave with feels like temps 100+. It was 89 degrees in my downstairs. Quick fix, after waiting 24 hrs for service, but it took nearly 12 hours to get back down to a tolerable temp. Finished basement came in handy.

 

[PSUAVLNC]

so i just had an issue with my trane unit. our upstairs unit (goodman) popped a leak in the condenser coil so we had to have that replaced. While they replaced that, I had them do a maintenance on my train unit. that was about a month ago when (also here in NC, Fayetteville area) we ran into that 100 degree week long heatwave. The system wouldn't dehumidify below 58% (set at 50%), and from 5-8pm, wouldn't cool below 77 (set at 75). First time having that happen with this unit. Then one day the outside condenser just stopped working. Thought capacitor but it was fine. called a tech, and he initially thought the EEV went bad (had low power), but come to find out it was low on freon (410a). filled it up and ran just fine for 2 days, then we ran into the same humidity and temp issue in the evenings. called them back to leak test and didn't find one. just chalked it up to the heat we've had down here.

my conspiracy hat says something happened when they did the maintenance because since then it's not keeping up. also, i don't know how it would have been low on juice because i've never (in the 5 years) had a maintenance, so it couldn't be cumulative gauge hookup.

but they couldn't find anything....

the compressor issue has me thinking....

Sounds to me like your Trane unit has a slow leak and your tech couldn’t find it. Nothing else makes sense. Small leaks can be a ***** to find.

 

[JakkL]

FYI. The charge was $1625. 1 technician from around 9am to 2:45pm with lunch.

 

[razpsu]

Hvacs have spiked that is for sure. Had paid 7k installed in 2019. Last year bought 3. 14,500 each 17 seer 410a Bryant units. Ouch.

 

[Nittering Nabob]

FYI. The charge was $1625. 1 technician from around 9am to 2:45pm with lunch.

Did he pressure test your lines?

 

[JakkL]

Did he pressure test your lines?

Yes. Tested before adding a half pound of refrigerant and then when they came back a week later it was still full. Seems to be working fine now. The real test of the new compressor and the remaining parts of the 4 year old system will be this weekend when it's hot.

I plan to have an HVAC company replace my flexible duct lines this fall in their off-season when people are looking for work. They are 25 years old and I'll bet some are at least a little loose. New ducts have a higher R value too. I would do it myself, but I have respiratory sensitivity.

 

[Nittering Nabob]

Yes. Tested before adding a half pound of refrigerant and then when they came back a week later it was still full. Seems to be working fine now. The real test of the new compressor and the remaining parts of the 4 year old system will be this weekend when it's hot.

I plan to have an HVAC company replace my flexible duct lines this fall in their off-season when people are looking for work. They are 25 years old and I'll bet some are at least a little loose. New ducts have a higher R value too. I would do it myself, but I have respiratory sensitivity.

Flex ducting is now the norm because it’s easy to install and is relatively inexpensive, but the wire ridges on the interior of the duct do add air flow friction.

I actually prefer rigid snap-lock metal ducting with exterior insulation sleeves. The smooth interior of the duct minimizes friction losses.

Many HVAC contractors don’t want to be bothered with rigid snap lock because it takes time to properly install.

I hope your new compressor serves you well and keeps you cool.

Keep us updated after a hot spell….crank that thermostat down and make it chilly inside.

 

[ChandlerPearce58]

I'm a semi retired HVAC contractor in NC, sounds like your HVAC guy is a straight shooter. If it were me I'd probably go with the R454B but honestly I think its a wash. If the 410 unit is a little less expensive I might go with that. When R410A went on the chopping block I bought new units for my house since the ones I have are 17 years old (Mitsubishi mini split heat pumps). My old units still run so the new ones have been in the garage for a couple years now.

This is just me, but I wouldn't touch an R22 unit. I know other contractors have paid pretty big fines for improper handling. I won't touch them.

Can I ask you a question? What was your total quote for the R410 change out and is it a heat pump or duel fuel unit? How about the R454b unit?

Our electric bills continue to rise to nearly $400/month. Our units are approx 13 years old...Our service people feel they can keep our existing units going for another 7-10 years. Is there any savings on electricity usage with newer units?

 

[SleepyLion]

Our electric bills continue to rise to nearly $400/month. Our units are approx 13 years old...Our service people feel they can keep our existing units going for another 7-10 years. Is there any savings on electricity usage with newer units?

There is an analysis that can be done with more information, but usually the electrical savings is not enough to offset the cost of replacement.

 

[PSUAVLNC]

Our electric bills continue to rise to nearly $400/month. Our units are approx 13 years old...Our service people feel they can keep our existing units going for another 7-10 years. Is there any savings on electricity usage with newer units?

The quick answer is "of course"..... but its not that simple. There's a lot of variables. I think your asking me how much will you chunk off that $400 A month light bill. Do your 13 year old units run because you're in an older home with leaky windows and poor insulation?? That's the ticket right there, if your envelope is tight and well insulated then I'd say " yes" your light bill will go down. People do tend to assume the units not working properly when it could well be load on hot hot days is just too much. Insulation, especially in the attic and good tight windows are very important. At 13 years old it sounds like you have R410A. 13 years isn't that old. One thing I might suggest is ask a tech to come in and chemically clean the indoor and outdoor coils. You said "units" plural. Where do you live and what is your housing arrangement? How many floors?

 

[PSUeng]

I am late to the party. Just retired mechanical engineer HVAC designer. Do not do R-22. The refrigerant is very expensive and can only be charged once by code/law. You could keep changing contractors and lying but not worth it.

My father-in-law had (2) R-22 units replaced, he had me deal with the contractors. Live hear Harrisburg, PA. I told him to go with heat pumps, no matter what refrigerant he wanted. I still prefer 410A due to most contractors know it better. Also, most of the new refrigerants are simi-flammable. The one unit would be in an attic that is hard to access.

I contacted 6 HVAC companies and asked for quotes for minimum code SEER and the upgraded ones to get both PP&L and Federal tax rebates. This is where it got tricky. Some would say the units should receive rebates, some did not quote matching units (the fed. rebates have a list with matching units that get the rebates). The condensing unit was a qualifying unit but not with the AHU they paired with it. You can look this up online.
In the end the units he choose get two system that got both rebates. The rebates made the most efficient units cost less to install overall and were the most efficient.

Also, make sure they replace all the lines, one contractor said he could flush the lines. Never do this. Hard to get totally clean and line sizes my differ.

One last thing, if you go with a heat pump, you need to make sure the electrical system can handle it. Must heat pumps add electrical coils even if you are sized correctly.

Rule of thumb, undersize cooling over size heating. (not buy a lot) If you over size cooling the compressor will cycle more and the indoor unit my not need to deliver as cool of air. 55 degree air tends to dehumidify making you feel cooler, where 60 degree does not.

Good Luck

 

[PSUeng]

The quick answer is "of course"..... but its not that simple. There's a lot of variables. I think your asking me how much will you chunk off that $400 A month light bill. Do your 13 year old units run because you're in an older home with leaky windows and poor insulation?? That's the ticket right there, if your envelope is tight and well insulated then I'd say " yes" your light bill will go down. People do tend to assume the units not working properly when it could well be load on hot hot days is just too much. Insulation, especially in the attic and good tight windows are very important. At 13 years old it sounds like you have R410A. 13 years isn't that old. One thing I might suggest is ask a tech to come in and chemically clean the indoor and outdoor coils. You said "units" plural. Where do you live and what is your housing arrangement? How many floors?

On the cleaning of coils, I have a ground source heat pump so only have an indoor coil. I clean it ever year. Helps with air flow and heat transfer. If your handy, you can get a pump sprayer with extended wand and coil cleaner. If you do this turn off the unit before doing it. The cleaners come in no rinse and rinse versions. both work well. I agree with every thing PSUAVLNC said

 

[PSUAVLNC]

I am late to the party. Just retired mechanical engineer HVAC designer. Do not do R-22. The refrigerant is very expensive and can only be charged once by code/law. You could keep changing contractors and lying but not worth it.

My father-in-law had (2) R-22 units replaced, he had me deal with the contractors. Live hear Harrisburg, PA. I told him to go with heat pumps, no matter what refrigerant he wanted. I still prefer 410A due to most contractors know it better. Also, most of the new refrigerants are simi-flammable. The one unit would be in an attic that is hard to access.

I contacted 6 HVAC companies and asked for quotes for minimum code SEER and the upgraded ones to get both PP&L and Federal tax rebates. This is where it got tricky. Some would say the units should receive rebates, some did not quote matching units (the fed. rebates have a list with matching units that get the rebates). The condensing unit was a qualifying unit but not with the AHU they paired with it. You can look this up online.
In the end the units he choose get two system that got both rebates. The rebates made the most efficient units cost less to install overall and were the most efficient.

Also, make sure they replace all the lines, one contractor said he could flush the lines. Never do this. Hard to get totally clean and line sizes my differ.

One last thing, if you go with a heat pump, you need to make sure the electrical system can handle it. Must heat pumps add electrical coils even if you are sized correctly.

Rule of thumb, undersize cooling over size heating. (not buy a lot) If you over size cooling the compressor will cycle more and the indoor unit my not need to deliver as cool of air. 55 degree air tends to dehumidify making you feel cooler, where 60 degree does not.

Good LucK

All this is RIGHT on the money (no pun intended)

 

[PSUeng]

All this is RIGHT on the money (no pun intended)

Just showing the cost of my father-in-law pricing. These were 1.5 ton units. These prices did not include the electrical panel upgrades. Had a very old 60/80 Amp panel.

Installation
Installation of (2) 18 seer 1.5 ton Mitsubishi SUZ/SVZ
Hyper-Heating Heat Pumps. Price includes demo of
existing units, new units, line sets, thermostats, misc. duct
work, electrical, electric heaters, filter kits, plumbing and
labor.

Lower Efficiency HP Bryant
Needs Electric upgrade yes
Price Basement unit $7,750
Price attic unit $7,750
Tax credit rebate $0
PPL Rebate $0
Manufacure rebate $0
Final price $15,500

High Efficiency HP Mitsubishi
Needs Electric upgrade yes
Price Basement unit $9,075
Price attic unit $9,075
Tax credit rebate (2000 system) -$4,000
PPL Rebate (350 system) -$700
Manufacure rebate $0
Final Price $13,450

Not suggesting any manufacture as most are made from 1to 4 companies. Felt pricing was good

 

[Nittering Nabob]

Our electric bills continue to rise to nearly $400/month. Our units are approx 13 years old...Our service people feel they can keep our existing units going for another 7-10 years. Is there any savings on electricity usage with newer units?

It's probably not the A/C units themselves, but the Cents/kWh that your local electricity provider is charging you. Does the state in which you live allow you to select your electricity provider?