OT - Starkville Real Estate Question

greenbean.sixpack

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Oct 6, 2012
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I'm looking for a residential property in Starkville for my kids (three college aged😭). I'm in the $225k range, we are in the market for a house, not a condo. I see where one of the Morgan built properties is for sale (off of John Wesley Rd) for a good price. These houses are 20ish years old at this point, anyone know how they are holding up? They don't look great from the outside, but they are rentals. Any other good buys in this price range?
 
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Maroon13

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From my looking around, that is about the cheapest you'll find down there.

Most of it is rented to college kids. But if you stay towards the front entrance, those are better kept in my opinion.

Just ride over there and look.
 

dickiedawg

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Feb 22, 2008
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I'm looking for a residential property in Starkville for my kids (three college aged😭). I'm in the $225k range, we are in the market for a house, not a condo. I see where one of the Morgan built properties is for sale (off of John Wesley Rd) for a good price. These houses are 20ish years old at this point, anyone know how they are holding up? They don't look great from the outside, but they are rentals. Any other good buys in this price range?
I was surprised to see one of those John Wesley houses listed for like $209k. Maybe that one needs work, I don't know, but if not I don't know that you'll find a better 3 BR house in town for less. They're solid.
 

greenbean.sixpack

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Oct 6, 2012
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I was surprised to see one of those John Wesley houses listed for like $209k. Maybe that one needs work, I don't know, but if not I don't know that you'll find a better 3 BR house in town for less. They're solid.
Thanks, man. The pics inside look good. The issue with that particular house is it has a tenant staying until July. We currently have a condo, but looking for a house, especially on with a decent yard (for dogs).
 

The Peeper

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Feb 26, 2008
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Our agent told us when we were looking to be very leary of anything out that way from the WalMart Super Center area and farther out West because of structural issues (Crossgates, Stark Rd, John Wesley area). We saw it too once he pointed it out. There was one we looked at out there on Clements that you could put a golf ball on the floor on one side of the room, it would roll to the middle and almost stop and then take off again downhill after it peaked in the middle and it would roll all the way to the other side of the room.
 

grinningmule

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Our agent told us when we were looking to be very leary of anything out that way from the WalMart Super Center area and farther out West because of structural issues (Crossgates, Stark Rd, John Wesley area). We saw it too once he pointed it out. There was one we looked at out there on Clements that you could put a golf ball on the floor on one side of the room, it would roll to the middle and almost stop and then take off again downhill after it peaked in the middle and it would roll all the way to the other side of the room.
I've witnessed that in several houses in all areas around Starkville. That clay is a ***** for slabs, especially for houses that are thrown up as quickly as possible.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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I've witnessed that in several houses in all areas around Starkville. That clay is a ***** for slabs, especially for houses that are thrown up as quickly as possible.

OT, but can somebody in engineering or construction explain why slabs are used in places with ****** soils? Would conventional foundations not be able to handle unstable soils better and also be easier to adujst/fix when the soil does shift?

I certainly would prefer to not have crawl space under my house (obviously easier for plumbing issues, but I can do without the opportunity for pests and moisture), but not to the extent that I would rather risk a concrete foundation cracking. Are concrete foundations just that much cheaper? Or do people just hate conventional foundations now? Or what?
 

greenbean.sixpack

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Oct 6, 2012
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OT, but can somebody in engineering or construction explain why slabs are used in places with ****** soils? Would conventional foundations not be able to handle unstable soils better and also be easier to adujst/fix when the soil does shift?

I certainly would prefer to not have crawl space under my house (obviously easier for plumbing issues, but I can do without the opportunity for pests and moisture), but not to the extent that I would rather risk a concrete foundation cracking. Are concrete foundations just that much cheaper? Or do people just hate conventional foundations now? Or what?
Many houses in central MS are built on or near Yazoo Clay, with the proper preparation of the pad, it's not a big issue, but being that MS is pretty lenient in what builders can get away with, foundations will shift.
 
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PooPopsBaldHead

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OT, but can somebody in engineering or construction explain why slabs are used in places with ****** soils? Would conventional foundations not be able to handle unstable soils better and also be easier to adujst/fix when the soil does shift?

I certainly would prefer to not have crawl space under my house (obviously easier for plumbing issues, but I can do without the opportunity for pests and moisture), but not to the extent that I would rather risk a concrete foundation cracking. Are concrete foundations just that much cheaper? Or do people just hate conventional foundations now? Or what?
#1. Slabs are much cheaper.
#2. Civil engineers are trained poorly when it comes to expansive clay soils. So they just keep putting slabs on clay.

If you build on clay you want a conditioned crawl space foundation.

Clay shrinks and expands based on its moisture content. Think of the cracks you see on the ground in the summer. That's from the clay shrinking when it's dry, but it doesn't just shrink in one direction it's in all directions. So while we can only see the vertical cracks, it's also collapsing on itself. In regards to foundations, this phenomena is called subsidence. If it gets too wet and swells, that's called heave. In the case of a plumbing leak under a bathroom in a house on a slab, you would like see heaving.

The good news is after you get 3'-12' (depending on the location and clay profile) below the surface, it's usually a non issue. Moisture content stays pretty consistent down deep. So I would drill 8-10' below surface (depending on geological report) and pour piers ever 8' or so below my footers and let those piers bear the weight of the home down on the stable soil.


Hijack

If any of you ever have foundation issues hit me up. I worked in that field for about 5 years back in Tejas. Id be glad to try to give you some free advice and hopefully save you many thousands of dollars. I started a business with a friend from grad school and we focused mainly on commercial concrete and foundation repair, but would do friends and family residential work. A whole lot of idiots in the foundation repair world, many of which have a PE stamp unfortunately.

Using post construction piers to fix a slab foundation is asking for trouble many times. Slabs are designed to float on the soil, as soon as you put piers on a portion of the house, but not the entire home you have screwed up that ability to move.

I have lifted hones 2+ inches with a root barrier (a big tree on one side of the house will suck moisture from the clay on that side) and a soaker hose. The whole goal with clay soils is keep the moisture content the same all the way around the slab and under it. If it gets too dry or two wet in one area, that's when you get movement.
 
Sep 21, 2017
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You can't blame engineers for the slab failures in spec built homes. Most of these homes come from a cookie cutter set of plans put together by architects not engineers. The developer will slap these houses up without a geological exploration to properly design each foundation. Even when I was at state I questioned the quality of anything that was built west of Walmart in the early 2000s

If memory serves me correctly the Starkville area has a lot of expansive clay on top of a selma chalk substrate crating a worst case situation for expansive soils. Drilled piles incoporated in the footings are the best way to midigate the issue of expansive clays on a slab foundation. To my knowlage this hasn't been common in the residnetial industury but for the lest decade or so.
 

MSUDC11-2.0

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What I’ll say about the foundation/settlement issues is depending on your price range you may have to have a certain level of tolerance or else you’ll never be able to afford anything decent in Starkville unless you’ve got just oodles and oodles of cash or equity to pull from.

I bought a house in Starkville about 6 years ago, decent little starter home but nothing crazy, for around $180K at that time. Which I thought was a little bit of an overpayment but we needed a house. In 6 years we haven’t done just a ton of improvement, some cosmetic things here and there but nothing too significant. Some settlement issues that we knew about going in ended up being worse than we were originally led to believe and we had to pay thousands to deal with the foundation. Just had an appraisal on the house and has increased SIGFNICANTLY in value since 2018. I was stunned by the number we were given.
 
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Aug 22, 2012
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What I’ll say about the foundation/settlement issues is depending on your price range you may have to have a certain level of tolerance or else you’ll never be able to afford anything decent in Starkville unless you’ve got just oodles and oodles of cash or equity to pull from.

I bought a house in Starkville about 6 years ago, decent little starter home but bithing crazy, for around $180K at that time. Which I thought was a little bit of an overpayment but we needed a house. In 6 years we haven’t done just a ton of improvement, some cosmetic things here and there but nothing too significant. Some settlement issues that we knew about going in ended up being worse than we were originally led to believe and we had to pay thousands to deal with the foundation. Just had an appraisal on the house and has increased SIGFNICANTLY in value since 2018. I was stunned by the number we were given.
I am going to guess the price is the low $300s. The market went crazy.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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Dec 15, 2017
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You can't blame engineers for the slab failures in spec built homes. Most of these homes come from a cookie cutter set of plans put together by architects not engineers. The developer will slap these houses up without a geological exploration to properly design each foundation. Even when I was at state I questioned the quality of anything that was built west of Walmart in the early 2000s

If memory serves me correctly the Starkville area has a lot of expansive clay on top of a selma chalk substrate crating a worst case situation for expansive soils. Drilled piles incoporated in the footings are the best way to midigate the issue of expansive clays on a slab foundation. To my knowlage this hasn't been common in the residnetial industury but for the lest decade or so.
Just speaking from my experience in DFW. Most if not all municipalities require residential foundation plans to be stamped by a PE there. Of course all commercial stuff was stamped by a PE. I have met many, that were clueless as to the realities of why slabs fail. They are very concerned about heaves, which are actually pretty rare. Don't get me wrong, I have met some PE's that are amazing and extremely knowledgeable, but way too many others are clueless or downright willfully negligent. I remember the foundation repair association putting on some data that 1 outta 3 slab foundations in North Texas had failed in the previous 25 years. I know there were over 150 foundation repair companies in DFW in 2015.

To many of the PE's are often focused on the stiffness of the slab, so they increase the number of grade beams and/or post tension cables. These foundations fail too. But instead of getting a slab crack and having one corner of the house settle, the whole house tilts. There was a neighborhood in Carrollton Texas called Castle Hills were this was an epidemic. The builders hired a friend of mine's company to tunnel under the slabs and install piers to pier up the entire house. I think the average cost was around $40,000 per home.

Long story short, I have never seen a slab with preconstruction piers installed to a prescribed death actually fail. In a new construction neighborhood, you could get a geotechnical report and install piers on a 2000 sf slab for around $3000, or build a crawl space for $5,000-$7,000 more. Instead they spend nearly as much if not more money stiffening the slab or pulling out clay and bringing in fill dirt.... That fill dirt is much more permeable and allows the deeper clay to now have moisture changes, not to mention the fill is subject to erosion and literally washes out from under the slab foundation since most production homes fall to include gutters and drains and just let the heavy rains come off the eaves I to swails between the homes.

Here's the void under a slab where fill dirt washed away. This was a 12-15 year old house in atown that has required PE's to stamp foundations for years before it was built. One of the guys put the water bottle there for scale:

1000013464.png

Here's a commercial example of horrible engineering:

These images show a 4 year old 20,000 sf building in Las Colinas, Texas. There is a drawing called a contour diagram I made of the foundation by taking elevation readings on a 10' grid. The building had settled 14.5" in 4 years and was deemed unsafe for tenants once the elevator got stuck in its shaft. $1.1 million to install piers and use high density polyurethane foam to lift and stabilize the building... We targeted getting it to 2.2" out of level, but only got it to 4.5" when the concrete grade beams on the foundation start showing signs of near failure during lifting.

1000013460.png
1000013461.png
1000013462.png

Based on the soil complex in the area, this building should have probably had 30-40' deep piers bearing the weight of the building and significant precon drainage improvements to prevent this disaster. Instead an ignorant if not downright crooked engineer rubber stamped a cheap/crooked builder's plans to cut some corners... Installing the piers before construction would have cost $75,000 or so and likely something similar for a better drainage plan.

As far as I know, the engineer carried zero blame in the lawsuits and the excavation company was getting targeted for not compacting soil as well as they should have.

Not to be left unsaid, a very high percentage and I mean very high percentage of the engineers names/stamps on foundation plans I would consider shoddy were Indian sounding names.
 

greenbean.sixpack

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Oct 6, 2012
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OT, but can somebody in engineering or construction explain why slabs are used in places with ****** soils? Would conventional foundations not be able to handle unstable soils better and also be easier to adujst/fix when the soil does shift?

I certainly would prefer to not have crawl space under my house (obviously easier for plumbing issues, but I can do without the opportunity for pests and moisture), but not to the extent that I would rather risk a concrete foundation cracking. Are concrete foundations just that much cheaper? Or do people just hate conventional foundations now? Or what?

I'm looking for a residential property in Starkville for my kids (three college aged😭). I'm in the $225k range, we are in the market for a house, not a condo. I see where one of the Morgan built properties is for sale (off of John Wesley Rd) for a good price. These houses are 20ish years old at this point, anyone know how they are holding up? They don't look great from the outside, but they are rentals. Any other good buys in this price range?
Just to clarify these houses are built on a conventional foundation (with s crawl space).
 
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Boom Boom

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Just speaking from my experience in DFW. Most if not all municipalities require residential foundation plans to be stamped by a PE there. Of course all commercial stuff was stamped by a PE. I have met many, that were clueless as to the realities of why slabs fail. They are very concerned about heaves, which are actually pretty rare. Don't get me wrong, I have met some PE's that are amazing and extremely knowledgeable, but way too many others are clueless or downright willfully negligent. I remember the foundation repair association putting on some data that 1 outta 3 slab foundations in North Texas had failed in the previous 25 years. I know there were over 150 foundation repair companies in DFW in 2015.

To many of the PE's are often focused on the stiffness of the slab, so they increase the number of grade beams and/or post tension cables. These foundations fail too. But instead of getting a slab crack and having one corner of the house settle, the whole house tilts. There was a neighborhood in Carrollton Texas called Castle Hills were this was an epidemic. The builders hired a friend of mine's company to tunnel under the slabs and install piers to pier up the entire house. I think the average cost was around $40,000 per home.

Long story short, I have never seen a slab with preconstruction piers installed to a prescribed death actually fail. In a new construction neighborhood, you could get a geotechnical report and install piers on a 2000 sf slab for around $3000, or build a crawl space for $5,000-$7,000 more. Instead they spend nearly as much if not more money stiffening the slab or pulling out clay and bringing in fill dirt.... That fill dirt is much more permeable and allows the deeper clay to now have moisture changes, not to mention the fill is subject to erosion and literally washes out from under the slab foundation since most production homes fall to include gutters and drains and just let the heavy rains come off the eaves I to swails between the homes.

Here's the void under a slab where fill dirt washed away. This was a 12-15 year old house in atown that has required PE's to stamp foundations for years before it was built. One of the guys put the water bottle there for scale:

View attachment 563129

Here's a commercial example of horrible engineering:

These images show a 4 year old 20,000 sf building in Las Colinas, Texas. There is a drawing called a contour diagram I made of the foundation by taking elevation readings on a 10' grid. The building had settled 14.5" in 4 years and was deemed unsafe for tenants once the elevator got stuck in its shaft. $1.1 million to install piers and use high density polyurethane foam to lift and stabilize the building... We targeted getting it to 2.2" out of level, but only got it to 4.5" when the concrete grade beams on the foundation start showing signs of near failure during lifting.

View attachment 563109
View attachment 563110
View attachment 563112

Based on the soil complex in the area, this building should have probably had 30-40' deep piers bearing the weight of the building and significant precon drainage improvements to prevent this disaster. Instead an ignorant if not downright crooked engineer rubber stamped a cheap/crooked builder's plans to cut some corners... Installing the piers before construction would have cost $75,000 or so and likely something similar for a better drainage plan.

As far as I know, the engineer carried zero blame in the lawsuits and the excavation company was getting targeted for not compacting soil as well as they should have.

Not to be left unsaid, a very high percentage and I mean very high percentage of the engineers names/stamps on foundation plans I would consider shoddy were Indian sounding names.
On the legal side of this, I am aware of similar issues ongoing in Louisiana and other "low-reg" states where the engineers have little to no liability for their mistakes, so the harmed party goes after the contractor. Contracting law has been so bastardized in favor of sureties and such that the contractors are taking the loss even when they completely followed the plans. Construction rates are increasing accordingly.
 
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johnson86-1

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On the legal side of this, I am aware of similar issues ongoing in Louisiana and other "low-reg" states where the engineers have little to no liability for their mistakes, so the harmed party goes after the contractor. Contracting law has been so bastardized in favor of sureties and such that the contractors are taking the loss even when they completely followed the plans. Construction rates are increasing accordingly.
How many places in Mississippi even require residential house plans to be stamped by engineers or architects? I'm not positive, but I don't think tract home builders do anything where I live as far as geotech work or getting plans stamped, at least for a particular site. But I'm mainly basing that on how fast and shoddily they throw up houses. They certainly could be doing lots of geotech work when developing the subdivision and just have an architect or engineer on retainer stamping plans for each of the lots as they start to build on them.

ETA: With respect to the laws being bastardized in favor of sureties, under the traditional set up for sureties in construction, the sureties only have obligations to pay or perform to the extent the contractor does, so pushing responsibility onto the contractor doesn't help the surety, it hurts them. You'd think sureties and contractors would have the clout to out lobby the engineers/architects if it comes down to it, but no clue how that's actually played out.
 
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johnson86-1

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Sellers in my area are getting pretty desperate...

View attachment 563435
Yea, I'd guess there hasn't been a single market that has dropped 22% in value in the last year. Maybe some markets that got really overheated have dropped by 5-7%, but I assume that price was completely disconnected from reality and overpriced by at least 20% when it was listed originally.
 

Boom Boom

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How many places in Mississippi even require residential house plans to be stamped by engineers or architects? I'm not positive, but I don't think tract home builders do anything where I live as far as geotech work or getting plans stamped, at least for a particular site. But I'm mainly basing that on how fast and shoddily they throw up houses. They certainly could be doing lots of geotech work when developing the subdivision and just have an architect or engineer on retainer stamping plans for each of the lots as they start to build on them.
I wasn't speaking of residential construction, I should have said that.
ETA: With respect to the laws being bastardized in favor of sureties, under the traditional set up for sureties in construction, the sureties only have obligations to pay or perform to the extent the contractor does, so pushing responsibility onto the contractor doesn't help the surety, it hurts them. You'd think sureties and contractors would have the clout to out lobby the engineers/architects if it comes down to it, but no clue how that's actually played out.
Ah, but the surety gets to indemnify themselves now, and the contractor has very high bond requirements. So the surety gets to settle with the contractors money. Even when the contractor is not at fault.

Imagine if auto insurance got to settle with their customers money! Well that's how Contracting surety law works now. Of course the contractor can just refuse the indemnity terms....and never get a bond so never qualify for a job. Capitalism!