Work with me on this one: Might the talent discrepancy be due to a coaching discrepancy? Might top recruits opt to go to the place they perceive will give them the best shot at becoming the best wrestler they can develop into?
Penn St. PBP
- Thread starter GableBeer
- Start date
Just ludicrous. Does PSU get more high level recruits? Of course. But they also get way more out of their high level recruits than Iowa does out of theirs.
Levi Haines and Josh Barr split matches with Aidan Riggins in high school. Ryder Block was neck and neck with Tyler Kasak. Gabe Arnold beat Rocco Welsh multiple times. He placed ahead of Barr multiple times. Kueter won a junior world title when he was 18.
If you are a top 10 recruit and go to PSU, you will likely win an NCAA title. If you are a top 10 recruit for Iowa, you will likely be an all-american. That's the coaching difference.
This guy is a certified Iowa hater.
Take Penn State out of the equation for a second. People are pointing out about how its the solid recruits, and not just coaching. You hear about the lack of offense last night was just because of better talent. Please explain to me then how outside of Caliendo, Iowa had THREE takedowns against Iowa State. Was it better talent? Higher recruits?
Ayala,Kennedy,Ferrari,Keuter were top 5 recruits with all the accolades. Williams was 12th. Are they chicken ****? Part of coaching is talent identification and acquisition. TNT have fallen behind in both areas.
Edit: Arnold also top 5.
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Its a lot easier to get the most out of high level guys when you have 3 to choose from per weight and others coming in. Iowa gets one per year and has to hope they work out or dont get hurt.
If you get 10 first round picks per year as opposed to 2, your mairgin for error is lower. Thats not an opinion. PSU has a lot of blue chippers that dont work out. It doesn't matter because they have more to try.
Iowa doesn't recruit at the level they should be recruiting at. Plain and simple. There are other issues but it doesn't mean its not an issue. If it wasnt an issue they wouldnt have to supplement the roster with transfers every year.
The talent discrepancy is about coaching, though. Your analysis of Levi vs Gabe is exactly it. They were similar HS pedigree in the same class, but at PSU, Levi has 3 B1G, 1 NCAA title, and 3 top 3 AA finishes, while at Iowa, Gabe has 1 NQ finish and can’t get a spot in the starting lineup. When the current Spencer/Blaze level recruits see the difference in results, they go to PSU, which creates the talent discrepancy over time. The talent discrepancy alone wasn’t anything like this until recently, but a decade of overachieving at NCAAs while Iowa underachieved tipped the scales to the point where Cael pretty much has his pick of whatever guys he wants now. Ok St realized a change in direction was needed, will Iowa?
Seems like fans aren’t the only ones getting frustrated with wrestlers going to a knee in neutral. The ref last night didn’t seem too keen on it.
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It's not 10 to 2 it's 20-12 over the last 10 years. Ferrari and Kueter were top 3 guys. Arnold and Ayala top 5. *Kennedy also too 3.
However is he paid? And I'm thinking he was accurate here.
PSU will always have a slight recruiting advantage over IA due to location. The talent in PA is ridiculous. Its so deep at every weight. The number and quality of clubs is amazing. I've seen some kids place in other states that wouldn't have advanced past our 1st round of sectionals. Many of these kids within 3-4 hours of State College travel there for training. The top tier talent is close state to state but no where near the depth.
thats assuming both programs each got one blue chip at that weight. And thats not true.
list the 20 -12 guys over 10 years and I'll listen to your arguement.
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I dont know. They aren't coming to Iowa. Outside of the few years around Spencer the top guys were not coming to Iowa. If you have been following recruiting its been the same story. People on here post about the top prospects and intrest in Iowa. Then we hear they go elsewhere. Every. Fxxcking. Year. The Spencer years being the outlier. I cant be the only one that sees this. LMFAO. Iowa hasn't been a front runner in recruiting since 2010. We got Angelo because OSU and PSU wanted nothing to do with the family.
It's not an "argument" it's a factually accurate statement.
It was indeed, not factual as I stated 12 instead of 10 for Iowa. Lol
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Iowa:
Marinelli(3) Ayala(5)
Lee(2)/Warner(7)
Kueter(2) Arnold(5)
Ferrari (2)
Kennedy(3) Delucca(8)
Psu
Hall(1),Suriano(2), Manville(5), Berge(6),Nick Lee(9),brooks(2), Starrocci(9),Bartlett (4),Howard(7),Facundo (2),SVN(4),Haines (9),Barr(7),Kasak(10),Liledahl(1),Ryder(5),Sealey (6),Mirasola(7),Blaze (1), Duke(2)
Iowa has 9 top 10 P4P/ 7 top 5/ 5 top 3
PSU has 20 top 10 P4P/ 10 top 5/8 top 3
Penn State has 5 different national champs for 13 titles and with SVN,Haines,liledahl, blaze,Duke,barr,Kasak left that's probably gonna end up around 10 different national champions and something like 10-12 more titles.
Iowa has Spencer lee....Heck, brands has 9 wrestlers ever who have won a title for 14 total I believe. If Haines wins this year the 6 year stretch from 2016-2021 PSU recruits have the same amount of titles as Brands has coached his whole career.**Not as confident in my Brands historical data so correct me if I'm wrong, please.
It's about PSU having more talent,yes. It's more about what they do with that talent and which guy are they prioritizing. They get busts BUT they get legends to off set them.
Iowa doesn't have the true "busts", but they don't have the home runs either and end up taking guys ranked above others who blew it out of the water comparatively. Ie Nick Lee vs Warner or Barr and Kasak vs Arnold and Kueter not to mention guys from other schools. Iowa got the higher ranked guy, Penn State got the hands down more productive and higher scoring wrestler.
People think Iowa is so far off and some cry they need more money (come on now)and some say they have ethics to high ( again, come on) to compete at the required level on the recruiting trail. I believe that a new head coach would bring a reinvestment to the program, generate the "new coach " wave Taylor is enjoying at Ok State and we see everywhere when a new guy is hired. Iowa isn't nearly as far behind in talent acquisition. They're very far behind in talent identification it seems
Marinelli(3) Ayala(5)
Lee(2)/Warner(7)
Kueter(2) Arnold(5)
Ferrari (2)
Kennedy(3) Delucca(8)
Psu
Hall(1),Suriano(2), Manville(5), Berge(6),Nick Lee(9),brooks(2), Starrocci(9),Bartlett (4),Howard(7),Facundo (2),SVN(4),Haines (9),Barr(7),Kasak(10),Liledahl(1),Ryder(5),Sealey (6),Mirasola(7),Blaze (1), Duke(2)
Iowa has 9 top 10 P4P/ 7 top 5/ 5 top 3
PSU has 20 top 10 P4P/ 10 top 5/8 top 3
Penn State has 5 different national champs for 13 titles and with SVN,Haines,liledahl, blaze,Duke,barr,Kasak left that's probably gonna end up around 10 different national champions and something like 10-12 more titles.
Iowa has Spencer lee....Heck, brands has 9 wrestlers ever who have won a title for 14 total I believe. If Haines wins this year the 6 year stretch from 2016-2021 PSU recruits have the same amount of titles as Brands has coached his whole career.**Not as confident in my Brands historical data so correct me if I'm wrong, please.
It's about PSU having more talent,yes. It's more about what they do with that talent and which guy are they prioritizing. They get busts BUT they get legends to off set them.
Iowa doesn't have the true "busts", but they don't have the home runs either and end up taking guys ranked above others who blew it out of the water comparatively. Ie Nick Lee vs Warner or Barr and Kasak vs Arnold and Kueter not to mention guys from other schools. Iowa got the higher ranked guy, Penn State got the hands down more productive and higher scoring wrestler.
People think Iowa is so far off and some cry they need more money (come on now)and some say they have ethics to high ( again, come on) to compete at the required level on the recruiting trail. I believe that a new head coach would bring a reinvestment to the program, generate the "new coach " wave Taylor is enjoying at Ok State and we see everywhere when a new guy is hired. Iowa isn't nearly as far behind in talent acquisition. They're very far behind in talent identification it seems
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I agree but chittum was ISU. You can't count Chittum for Iowa unless you throw in Carr to balance it out.
Brands isn't wrong here. If Angelo would fake dropping to a knee, it would surprise the hell out of everyone, and might catch the opposing wrestler off guard.
Brands has 9 wrestlers for 14:
Perry (x2)
Metcalf (x2)
McDonough (x2)
Borschel
St. John
Ramos
Clark
Lee (x3)
Buchanan
The only undefeated national champions were Borschel in 2010 and Lee in 2021
I think Angelo Ferrari is his own worst enemy. He's got legit skill from his feet, and might be the quickest guy in the entire weight class. And I believe he's strong enough to finish well given his quickness, and his tank seems to be pretty damn good too.
Mikey Caliendo is far and away our best wrestler IMO, and I think Angelo has a similar skill set, without the "let it fly" mentality. (maybe he sees what worked for his brother(?), but he's got more ability IMO)
184 is a tough weight class right now, but he's got everything he needs to win it. Let it fly young man, I'll personally believe you'll be better off for it in the long run.
Friday night was the perfect opportunity for Angelo to let it fly and see what happens. The dual was out of reach and no one in the building would expect an offensive onslaught from him. Nothing to lose - opportunity wasted.
Opportunity and an L on his resume, which didn't need to be IMO.
Welsh and McEnelly are some tough dudes no doubt, and hard to score on, but you put a couple of takedowns on them in a match then they have to do something to catch up, and that should be to Angelo's advantage IMO. He can go to one knee then as far as I'm concerned
(which I despise from him or anybody BTW). I believe in Angelo's skill set, and I'd rather see him lose 8-7 if that's what the Wrestling Gods have in store, instead of in SV.
At the end of the day very happy he's a Hawk!
It's a mind set of being afraid to lose. That is implanted by the coaches and sustained for 4 to 5 years leading to more conservative wrestling overall. It doesn't matter if he let it fly he won't when it involves top tier wrestlers because he wrestles afraid to lose.
Opportunity and an L on his resume, which didn't need to be IMO.
Welsh and McEnelly are some tough dudes no doubt, and hard to score on, but you put a couple of takedowns on them in a match then they have to do something to catch up, and that should be to Angelo's advantage IMO. He can go to one knee then as far as I'm concerned
I believe in Angelo's skill set, and I'd rather see him lose 8-7 if that's what the Wrestling Gods have in store, instead of in SV.
At the end of the day very happy he's a Hawk!
The only thing Angelo gained from wrestling that match was an L. Opportunity wasted.