Pfizer moving to Ireland....

fuzz77

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The U.S. has the highest corporate tax rate among first world nations. Adjust the tax to a competitive world rate and you will solve the problem. There are a number of workable solutions but Barry would rather demonize American businesses for political gain.
And we also have the lowest personal taxes. Again, pay attention. We could lower corporate taxes but it would require that personal taxes would have to rise. Pick your poison.

"Barry" hasn't done anything to corporate rates. Better find another boggy-man to blame.
 

DSmith21

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And we also have the lowest personal taxes. Again, pay attention. We could lower corporate taxes but it would require that personal taxes would have to rise. Pick your poison.

"Barry" hasn't done anything to corporate rates. Better find another boggy-man to blame.

Lower corporate taxes wouldn't necessarily mean higher personal taxes. Why don't lib/dems ever look to cutting wasteful spending before taxing us more?

You are wrong to say that we have the lowest personal taxes according to this study. It shows personal tax rates on $100,000 around the world. The U.S. comes in at 55th out of 114."

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/
 
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fuzz77

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Lower corporate taxes wouldn't necessarily mean higher personal taxes. Why don't lib/dems ever look to cutting wasteful spending before taxing us more?

You are wrong to say that we have the lowest personal taxes according to this study. It shows personal tax rates on $100,000 around the world. The U.S. comes in at 55th out of 114."

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/
Did you even bother to read your own linked material?

Check out those countries... how many of those countries with lower taxes would you like to live in?
Ireland...higher or lower than the US? Nearly every Western European country...higher or lower than the US?
And IF YOU READ YOUR OWN MATERIAL it doesn't account for VAT taxes that they most all impose. The VAT in Ireland is 23%.

Overall lower taxes than the US...Turkey, Chile, Mexico...that's it. How has it served those economies?
You really want to get into a debate over semantics??? I think you better go do a little more research.

 
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fuzz77

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Why don't we just cut spending and then lower the corporate tax while keeping the personal taxes the same.
Seems logical to me.
Ok, and I get to decide what all gets cut.
Hey, I'm all for cutting spending but you might not like where I cut it.
Thus the reason it never gets cut.
I'll reiterate the same proposal I have pushed for years... taxes = spending. Want to cut taxes? Get support to cut the amount of spending = to the lost revenue. Want more spending? You have to get the support to raise taxes to pay for it.
 

ALL IN YOUR FACE

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So at this point we should cut spending to equal the amount of taxes since nobody is going to vote for a tax increase. Sounds good, let's do this.
 

DSmith21

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Did you even bother to read your own linked material?

Check out those countries... how many of those countries with lower taxes would you like to live in?
Ireland...higher or lower than the US? Nearly every Western European country...higher or lower than the US?
And IF YOU READ YOUR OWN MATERIAL it doesn't account for VAT taxes that they most all impose. The VAT in Ireland is 23%.

Overall lower taxes than the US...Turkey, Chile, Mexico...that's it. How has it served those economies?
You really want to get into a debate over semantics??? I think you better go do a little more research.


You said that we had the lowest personal rate. You didn't say as compared to only Euro socialist countries. So don't try to move the bar when proven wrong. I am fine with current rates which put us about even with Australia and South Korea. I don't know why you libs want to follow the failed European high tax/higher spend model into insolvency.
 
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fuzz77

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You said that we had the lowest personal rate. You didn't say as compared to only Euro socialist countries. So don't try to move the bar when proven wrong. I am fine with current rates which put us about even with Australia and South Korea. I don't know why you libs want to follow the failed European high tax/higher spend model into insolvency.
Nobody is moving the bar but you.

What other parts of the world have our same standard of living with lower taxes?
And again, you ignore the GST that Australian's pay, the fact that they pay .38 cents tax per liter of fuel, that works out to about $1.47/gallon...Ky charges .26 cents per gallon.

You want to cherry pick and ignore the bigger picture.

You realize that both Australia and South Korea both have universal health care?

So what happens when you add the cost of health care to our current tax burden? Between my employer and myself it will add $25000 to mine. Those "Euro socialist countries" figured out that socialized medicine costs significantly less than our private system and results in better care and a healthier population. Geez, why would anyone want that?
 

AlbanyWildCat

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Corporations have bajillions outside of the US and zero incentive to do any investments outside of the US. Sounds like corporations are kind fcuked.
It's just a waiting game until a one-time deal is reached for something like 20% tax.
 

DSmith21

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Nobody is moving the bar but you.

What other parts of the world have our same standard of living with lower taxes?
And again, you ignore the GST that Australian's pay, the fact that they pay .38 cents tax per liter of fuel, that works out to about $1.47/gallon...Ky charges .26 cents per gallon.

You want to cherry pick and ignore the bigger picture.

You realize that both Australia and South Korea both have universal health care?

So what happens when you add the cost of health care to our current tax burden? Between my employer and myself it will add $25000 to mine. Those "Euro socialist countries" figured out that socialized medicine costs significantly less than our private system and results in better care and a healthier population. Geez, why would anyone want that?

There is health care cost in your tax burden. Its called Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare and the VA system. If you want crappy universal health care for everyone else at the expense of paying higher taxes, why don't you just move to Europe. Their care is not better than ours which is why Euros and Canadians who can afford it flock to the US to have operations. Also their healthcare is rationed. The US is the only major country that doesn't ration care especially at the end of life (when it is most expensive to do so).
 

DSmith21

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This is false...

You misrepresented my quote by cutting out the middle part but leaving the last sentence. Canadians and Euros (who can afford it) do come to the US for surgery because they have long waits for their mediocre rationed care.
 
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AlbanyWildCat

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You misrepresented my quote buy cutting out the middle part but leaving the last sentence. Canadians and Euros (who can afford it) do come to the US for surgery because they have long waits for their mediocre rationed care.

Still not ture...most of the countries you are referencing also have private insurance as well as gov't insurance for all. Those who can pay do not wait in line as you indicate.
 

Deeeefense

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The U.S. has the highest corporate tax rate among first world nations. Adjust the tax to a competitive world rate and you will solve the problem. There are a number of workable solutions but Barry would rather demonize American businesses for political gain.

The statutory rate is 36% but the actual effective tax rate is more like 24% and if you factor in the taxes on foreign profits that multinationals never pay tax on it's more like 12%.

The problem with the tax code is with all the credits and exemptions some corporations pay little or no tax while others pay near the max.

Here is a list of corporations that paid no tax at all:

 

Deeeefense

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You said that we had the lowest personal rate. You didn't say as compared to only Euro socialist countries. So don't try to move the bar when proven wrong. I am fine with current rates which put us about even with Australia and South Korea. I don't know why you libs want to follow the failed European high tax/higher spend model into insolvency.

Typically tax rates in European countries tend to be higher than in the US as they pay for their health care through a government system whereas in the US we pay for it separately (for the most part). If you back out the cost of health care it's not much different.
 

DSmith21

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The statutory rate is 36% but the actual effective tax rate is more like 24% and if you factor in the taxes on foreign profits that multinationals never pay tax on it's more like 12%.

The problem with the tax code is with all the credits and exemptions some corporations pay little or no tax while others pay near the max.

Here is a list of corporations that paid no tax at all:


I agree with you that our government picks winners and losers among corporations via the tax code. The ones who pay at or near the top of the tax rate are the ones that will continue to use inversions to lower their tax burdens. Also foreign companies are incentivized to buy US companies because they can achieve the same tax savings as can be done with an inversion.
 

Chuckinden

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You misrepresented my quote by cutting out the middle part but leaving the last sentence. Canadians and Euros (who can afford it) do come to the US for surgery because they have long waits for their mediocre rationed care.
Sure there may be some, but now research how many people leave the US to get medical care because it's just as good, but very much inexpensive.
 

fuzz77

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There is health care cost in your tax burden. Its called Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare and the VA system. If you want crappy universal health care for everyone else at the expense of paying higher taxes, why don't you just move to Europe. Their care is not better than ours which is why Euros and Canadians who can afford it flock to the US to have operations. Also their healthcare is rationed. The US is the only major country that doesn't ration care especially at the end of life (when it is most expensive to do so).
Neither Canadians nor any Europeans would trade our health care system for their own.

Think a minute about your last sentence. One of the primary reasons our healthcare is so expensive is because of what is spent on end-of-life healthcare. 40% of Medicare dollars are spent on people in their last month of life. One of the primary reasons there is resistance in the medical community for assisted suicide and euthanasia is that it would remove billions from healthcare provider pockets.

You can claim that their care is rationed, and to a point, it is. So? What is rationed is elective care. What is not rationed is emergency and critical care. They are also more healthy and live longer despite the fact that they drink more alcohol and smoke more tobacco. Were Americans paying out of pocket for their care they would self ration. When Blue Cross is footing the bill and your employer is paying for most of Blue Cross there is a disconnect in the cost-benefit analysis. Add that the end result is that we are extremely over medicated. Medicated to the point that many infections that were once easily treated with antibiotics have morphed into super-bug infections.
Guess what? Many Americans also travel overseas to obtain care because it can be had at a much lower cost.

Myth #1: Canadians are flocking to the United States to get medical care.

How many times have you heard that Canadians, frustrated by long wait times and rationing where they live, come to the United States for medical care?

The authors of the study started by surveying 136 ambulatory care facilities near the U.S.-Canada border in Michigan, New York and Washington. It makes sense that Canadians crossing the border for care would favor places close by, right? It turns out, however, that about 80 percent of such facilities saw, on average, fewer than one Canadian per month; about 40 percent had seen none in the preceding year.

Then, the researchers looked at how many Canadians were discharged over a five-year period from acute-care hospitals in the same three states. They found that more than 80 percent of these hospital visits were for emergency or urgent care (that is, tourists who had to go to the emergency room). Only about 20 percent of the visits were for elective procedures or care.

Next, the authors of the study surveyed America’s 20 “best” hospitals — as identified by U.S. News & World Report — on the assumption that if Canadians were going to travel for health care, they would be more likely to go to the best-known and highest-quality facilities. Only one of the 11 hospitals that responded saw more than 60 Canadians in a year. And, again, that included both emergencies and elective care.

Finally, the study’s authors examined data from the 18,000 Canadians who participated in the National Population Health Survey. In the previous year, 90 of those 18,000 Canadians had received care in the United States; only 20 of them, however, reported going to the United States expressively for the purpose of obtaining care.

Myth #5: Canada rations health care; the United States doesn’t.

This one’s a little bit tricky. The truth is, Canada may “ration” by making people wait for some things, but here in the United States we also “ration” — by cost.

An 11-country survey carried out in 2010 by the Commonwealth Fund, a Washington-based health policy foundation, found that adults in the United States are by far the most likely to go without care because of cost. In fact, 42 percent of the Americans surveyed did not express confidence that they would be able to afford health care if seriously ill.
 
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AlbanyWildCat

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JonathanW_rivals

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And we also have the lowest personal taxes. Again, pay attention. We could lower corporate taxes but it would require that personal taxes would have to rise. Pick your poison.

"Barry" hasn't done anything to corporate rates. Better find another boggy-man to blame.

Simple economics lesson here. When you make a change, it almost always affects other things. Each aspect of economics is dependent of many others. So what would happen if the corporate tax rate were lowered? Fewer companies would move overseas, maybe even some would move to the US. Others would be able to take that extra profit and expand to try and make more profit. All of these result in more US jobs. More jobs results in 1) more individual income to tax, and 2) more spending which then results in more production. Thus lowering the corporate income tax would not necessarily require an increase in personal taxes.

Now a separate issue is there are individuals and groups that the govt favors with tax advantages and loopholes. Those need to end! The Fair Tax is the best answer I've seen to do this, reducing the tax code by over 95%, encouraging businesses to operate in the US, not favoring groups over other groups, being able to get some taxes from those who live by illegal activities, yet has a way so that those living at or near poverty can get their tax $ back.
 
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d2atTech

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I've never understood this either. We need a tax law that says if you are going to relocate offshore for the sole purpose of avoiding corporate taxation then you are going to incur import fees 50% higher than said taxation for a period of 50 years.

To a lesser degree, this happens domestically too. Almost everyone encorporates their business in Delaware instead of the state that they actually operate in due to tax benefits. Really, we need tax reform but that requires political muscle.
 

Kaizer Sosay

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Here is a list of corporations that paid no tax at all:


Sooooo...let's hear it. Let's hear everyone that has been bashing Pfizer chime in now to bash this partial list of US corporations that pay no taxes. Let's hear how un-American they are. And how we should all boycott them. And we should put a tariff on their products.

C'mon folks. Don't be shy. Step right up.

{crickets chirping}

These companies making a business decision to take advantage of tax breaks and tax loopholes is no different than Pfizer making a business decision to move their corporate offices overseas.
 

Deeeefense

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To a lesser degree, this happens domestically too. Almost everyone encorporates their business in Delaware instead of the state that they actually operate in due to tax benefits. Really, we need tax reform but that requires political muscle.

State taxes normally apply to the state where you facility is located so for the average business there is usually no advantage incorporating in a different state. Deleware is a populare state in incorproate in business of the liabi
Sooooo...let's hear it. Let's hear everyone that has been bashing Pfizer chime in now to bash this partial list of US corporations that pay no taxes. Let's hear how un-American they are. And how we should all boycott them. And we should put a tariff on their products.

C'mon folks. Don't be shy. Step right up.

{crickets chirping}

These companies making a business decision to take advantage of tax breaks and tax loopholes is no different than Pfizer making a business decision to move their corporate offices overseas.

Most of these corporations are simply taking advantage of the tax code legally, but some of the mega-corps and other special interests have purchased favorable tax breaks from congress. That's why we need a top to bottom reform to the 70,000 page tax code.
 

Kaizer Sosay

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Most of these corporations are simply taking advantage of the tax code legally, but some of the mega-corps and other special interests have purchased favorable tax breaks from congress. That's why we need a top to bottom reform to the 70,000 page tax code.



True. And there is nothing illegal about what Pfizer did either. I'm just wondering where all the outrage is from the people on this board (the ones damning Pfizer) concerning the corporations that are skirting the tax laws (however legally they may do it) and are paying no taxes. You know, the ones on that list (and there are more). The ones who still have corporate offices on US soil. And still pay no taxes. Legal or not...according to the folks on this board (the ones damning Pfizer) it is their patriotic duty to pay corporate taxes. Right? Where is the outrage?

I don't blame any company for making legal business decisions that benefit their company and their share holders. It makes me mad sometimes to see these companies doing what Pfizer did or when I see big corporations not paying any taxes...but I know not to direct the anger at the companies. The anger needs to be directed towards DC.

And i concur. The tax code should be dismantled, overhauled and reconstructed. And shrunk. One...maybe two pages max.
 

MegaBlue05

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Murrikkka.

The land where nobody wants to pay taxes. Poor people and giant corporations really are one in the same.
 

fuzz77

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Simple economics lesson here. When you make a change, it almost always affects other things. Each aspect of economics is dependent of many others. So what would happen if the corporate tax rate were lowered? Fewer companies would move overseas, maybe even some would move to the US. Others would be able to take that extra profit and expand to try and make more profit. All of these result in more US jobs. More jobs results in 1) more individual income to tax, and 2) more spending which then results in more production. Thus lowering the corporate income tax would not necessarily require an increase in personal taxes.

Now a separate issue is there are individuals and groups that the govt favors with tax advantages and loopholes. Those need to end! The Fair Tax is the best answer I've seen to do this, reducing the tax code by over 95%, encouraging businesses to operate in the US, not favoring groups over other groups, being able to get some taxes from those who live by illegal activities, yet has a way so that those living at or near poverty can get their tax $ back.
What happens if you lower corporate taxes? What most likely happens is that the rate gets lowered but the rules are changed so that revenues are neutral. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Decisions made at the corporate level are rarely if ever made for a single reason...and things don't always work out as planned. 1000's of companies moved production to Mexico and/or China thinking they would save labor costs only to find that other costs rise, often more than what was saved in labor. Companies outsource business functions, jobs to other companies thinking they will save money only to find that they lose control of processes and that loss of control negatively affects the bottom line. Point being that if there was a sure fire way that corporations could save money, all of them would do so and if any one country had the perfect tax system everyone would emulate it

Governments give preferential tax treatment to certain industries because they want to encourage investment in those industries or they want to lure an industry into their jurisdiction. That isn't going to end.
The Fair Tax is no panacea. Consumption taxes discourage consumption and thus costs jobs. Add the fact that it is as regressive as hell. If you are only taxed on what you spend then you fail to collect taxes on those who may earn here but spend somewhere else or simply hoard their money. And if you think that it doesn't open a black market for tax free items and bartered services then you're nuts. Regardless of tax policy behaviors adapt and workarounds are found.
 

JonathanW_rivals

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Governments give preferential tax treatment to certain industries because they want to encourage investment in those industries or they want to lure an industry into their jurisdiction. That isn't going to end.
The Fair Tax is no panacea. Consumption taxes discourage consumption and thus costs jobs. Add the fact that it is as regressive as hell. If you are only taxed on what you spend then you fail to collect taxes on those who may earn here but spend somewhere else or simply hoard their money. And if you think that it doesn't open a black market for tax free items and bartered services then you're nuts. Regardless of tax policy behaviors adapt and workarounds are found.

While I agree that the Fair Tax is not a panacea, it is a big improvement over the current structure, which is hugely punititive to the middle and upper-middle class, and encourages corporations to move overseas.
The FairTax is not regressive. It is as regressive as you choose to make it. Do people in states with high state sales taxes not buy stuff? No. For bigger purchases they may go to s neighboring state but that is all. The built in rebates make the FairTax not regressive. Sure a few of the "rich" may live like they are poor to avoid the taxes but that number would be low, and I would bet they care so much about saving money that they currently are likely behaving in ways to avoid paying taxes now also. And yes there will probably be a black market, just like there are currently thousands who find ways around paying income taxes illegally. But I expect there would be less tax evasion than currently. Think about the drug dealers, their income isn't taxed, but the FairTax would get them on the Mercedes and expensive jewelry.
 

fuzz77

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While I agree that the Fair Tax is not a panacea, it is a big improvement over the current structure, which is hugely punititive to the middle and upper-middle class, and encourages corporations to move overseas.
The FairTax is not regressive. It is as regressive as you choose to make it. Do people in states with high state sales taxes not buy stuff? No. For bigger purchases they may go to s neighboring state but that is all. The built in rebates make the FairTax not regressive. Sure a few of the "rich" may live like they are poor to avoid the taxes but that number would be low, and I would bet they care so much about saving money that they currently are likely behaving in ways to avoid paying taxes now also. And yes there will probably be a black market, just like there are currently thousands who find ways around paying income taxes illegally. But I expect there would be less tax evasion than currently. Think about the drug dealers, their income isn't taxed, but the FairTax would get them on the Mercedes and expensive jewelry.
Not regressive? You sir don't understand what a regressive tax is.
Poor and lower middle class people spend 100% of their earnings and thus would be paying taxes at the highest effective rate. Someone who is able to save 10% of their earnings would only be paying tax on 90% of their earnings. Someone who can save 50% of their earnings effectively pays half the tax rate as the person who spent everything. If you earn $500K living on $250K is far from "living poor".

You are encouraging more income inequality thus accelerating the already disturbing trend of more and more money being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.
 

MegaBlue05

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Another problem with "just cut spending" in the simplest of terms is neither party will allow their handouts to get cut. Social programs (in exchange for votes from poor people) for Dems and a gingantic military budget (in exchange for votes from defense contractors) for Repubs.

And that military budget, in the words of Black Rob, is like Woah.
 

JonathanW_rivals

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Not regressive? You sir don't understand what a regressive tax is.
Poor and lower middle class people spend 100% of their earnings and thus would be paying taxes at the highest effective rate. Someone who is able to save 10% of their earnings would only be paying tax on 90% of their earnings. Someone who can save 50% of their earnings effectively pays half the tax rate as the person who spent everything. If you earn $500K living on $250K is far from "living poor".

You are encouraging more income inequality thus accelerating the already disturbing trend of more and more money being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.


I understand what Regressive means. You clearly don't understand the Fair Tax! Try reading it before making judgement.
The Fair Tax gives everyone a rebate covering the amount a family (of their size) at the poverty line would spend in FairTax taxes. Therefore those living near the poverty line would get back everything they paid in FairTax taxes, a net tax of $0. And similarly those in the lower middle class would get a rebate recouping most of their FairTax they pay in purchases. So it would be the upper-middle and "rich" classes that would be paying most of the taxes, because the rebate would be a drop in the bucket to what they spend.

Earn - Taxes paid at register - Rebate - effective tax rate
$40K - $11K - $11K - 0%
$80K - $20K - $11K - 11%
$200K - $45K -$11K - 17%
$1M - $200K - $11K - 19%
(these are all rough estimates)
Not regressive!

Now sure you can come up with examples of people earning a ton of money and not spending much of it. But you are talking about most likely less than 1% of the rich and upper middle class. No matter what tax system you have, you will have a few to make it a priority to evade paying.
 

JonathanW_rivals

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A general national sales tax would be regressive.
And a flat tax would be inherently unfair to the poor and lower-middle classes.
 

DSmith21

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Williams went to the US to see a heart specialist, though Canada has better outcomes for heart related care than the US. More than likely, Williams went to the US for a specialized procedure that is yet to be standard in treatment.

You really don't know what you are talking about...

Nice of you to make a guess and pretend that it is a fact there Karnak. I could not imagine a post more ill informed than that.
 

fuzz77

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I understand what Regressive means. You clearly don't understand the Fair Tax! Try reading it before making judgement.
The Fair Tax gives everyone a rebate covering the amount a family (of their size) at the poverty line would spend in FairTax taxes. Therefore those living near the poverty line would get back everything they paid in FairTax taxes, a net tax of $0. And similarly those in the lower middle class would get a rebate recouping most of their FairTax they pay in purchases. So it would be the upper-middle and "rich" classes that would be paying most of the taxes, because the rebate would be a drop in the bucket to what they spend.

Earn - Taxes paid at register - Rebate - effective tax rate
$40K - $11K - $11K - 0%
$80K - $20K - $11K - 11%
$200K - $45K -$11K - 17%
$1M - $200K - $11K - 19%
(these are all rough estimates)
Not regressive!

Now sure you can come up with examples of people earning a ton of money and not spending much of it. But you are talking about most likely less than 1% of the rich and upper middle class. No matter what tax system you have, you will have a few to make it a priority to evade paying.
Dude, it is the top 1% that already earn 22% of all income and they pay 38% of all the income tax paid and they don't spend all of their earnings, they invest it.



When 70% of all income tax paid is paid by the top 10% it doesn't take too many savers to drastically shift the burden to lower earners.

So are you going to tax investments, tax stock buys? What if I'm a day trader and I buy and sell stocks sometimes multiple times a day? You going to tax each of those transactions? Hell, why am I going to buy any investment if it costs me 20% off the top?
What incentive will I now have to invest in Municipal Bonds? You've just raised the cost of local, state and the federal government to invest in things like roads, schools and you've increased the cost of paying the national debt because they will all now have to pay market rates to sell bonds.

Let's not even get into the fact that you've now screwed everyone who has a Roth IRA or any other investments outside of regular IRA/401K accounts and already paid taxes on their invested monies.

You've obviously not explored the reams of consequences of shifting from an income based tax to one that is spending based. Here's another...to whom are you going to give the tax rebate? Is it per household or per wage earner? Think of the social implications either way. Do 2 unmarried people living in the same home get 1 or 2 rebates? If they only get 1 then their is less incentive for them to live together, if they get 2 then does my 17 yr old son who lives at home and has a job get one too?... How much potential for fraud exists there???
 

JonathanW_rivals

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Dude, it is the top 1% that already earn 22% of all income and they pay 38% of all the income tax paid and they don't spend all of their earnings, they invest it.



When 70% of all income tax paid is paid by the top 10% it doesn't take too many savers to drastically shift the burden to lower earners.

So are you going to tax investments, tax stock buys? What if I'm a day trader and I buy and sell stocks sometimes multiple times a day? You going to tax each of those transactions? Hell, why am I going to buy any investment if it costs me 20% off the top?
What incentive will I now have to invest in Municipal Bonds? You've just raised the cost of local, state and the federal government to invest in things like roads, schools and you've increased the cost of paying the national debt because they will all now have to pay market rates to sell bonds.

Let's not even get into the fact that you've now screwed everyone who has a Roth IRA or any other investments outside of regular IRA/401K accounts and already paid taxes on their invested monies.

You've obviously not explored the reams of consequences of shifting from an income based tax to one that is spending based. Here's another...to whom are you going to give the tax rebate? Is it per household or per wage earner? Think of the social implications either way. Do 2 unmarried people living in the same home get 1 or 2 rebates? If they only get 1 then their is less incentive for them to live together, if they get 2 then does my 17 yr old son who lives at home and has a job get one too?... How much potential for fraud exists there???

You really should just stop, the more you type the more you show your ignorance on the subject. The Fair Tax is not an income tax or a transactions tax. It is a sales tax on the final product of goods & services, with a built in rebate to make it not a regressive tax. Investments would not be taxed, nor IRAs or 401Ks.

Calculations have been done about the Fair Tax by economists on the total cost of goods purchased in the US overall, and by each stratum of wage earners, to determine the effects of the Fair Tax on each stratum. You don't realize it, but a large % of the cost of current goods includes inbedded income taxes (at each layer of the production of that product). The Fair Tax would be infinitely more simple than the current 40,000+ page tax code, it would have a set % that lawmakers could raise or lower where taxpayers would be able to see i.e transparency (not current practice), it would encourage companies to move/keep business in the US, it would allow the poor to reap the jobs benefits without having to pay much in taxes, make taxes mostly out of politics, and encourage growth in business. The Fair Tax has supporters on both sides of the aisle (D & R).

The rebate is per household, and thus a family of 2 gets a bigger rebate than a family of 1 (because a family of 2 would need to spend more). Now if you have a roommate who is not family (common in bigger cities) then just like currently you would be considered as seperate families.

There is an entire book explaining the Fair Tax. Go read it rather than making incorrect assumptions.
 

fuzz77

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You really should just stop, the more you type the more you show your ignorance on the subject. The Fair Tax is not an income tax or a transactions tax. It is a sales tax on the final product of goods & services, with a built in rebate to make it not a regressive tax. Investments would not be taxed, nor IRAs or 401Ks.

Calculations have been done about the Fair Tax by economists on the total cost of goods purchased in the US overall, and by each stratum of wage earners, to determine the effects of the Fair Tax on each stratum. You don't realize it, but a large % of the cost of current goods includes inbedded income taxes (at each layer of the production of that product). The Fair Tax would be infinitely more simple than the current 40,000+ page tax code, it would have a set % that lawmakers could raise or lower where taxpayers would be able to see i.e transparency (not current practice), it would encourage companies to move/keep business in the US, it would allow the poor to reap the jobs benefits without having to pay much in taxes, make taxes mostly out of politics, and encourage growth in business. The Fair Tax has supporters on both sides of the aisle (D & R).

The rebate is per household, and thus a family of 2 gets a bigger rebate than a family of 1 (because a family of 2 would need to spend more). Now if you have a roommate who is not family (common in bigger cities) then just like currently you would be considered as seperate families.

There is an entire book explaining the Fair Tax. Go read it rather than making incorrect assumptions.
I am quite familiar with the plan.
You don't realize it but you just made my case. If I'm bringing home $500K then I'm living pretty well off of $250K and investing the other half of my salary. My effective tax rate is cut in half.

How the Sales Tax Would Work
The proposed sales tax would amount to 23% of the total payment on just about all purchases. Sounds like you’d simply pay a 23% sales tax, right? Not quite. Basically, this works out to be a 30% sales tax rate, because you wouldn’t pay the tax at the register, like you do now.

For example, an item marked $100 would already include the sales tax within it – in this case, $23. This is called an inclusive tax. In other words, the cost of the item without the tax would be $77. But $23 paid on a $77 purchase is roughly 30%, the way we’re used to calculating it. While 30% is steep, you’d be working with a much larger paycheck, because no federal tax would have been withheld.

Further, the Fair Tax plan attempts to solve the issue of double-taxation. Currently, businesses must pay sales tax on the materials they use to create the goods they sell, which then get taxed again. In effect, the same material gets taxed twice. But under the proposed legislation, items purchased directly by businesses could avoid the sales tax and thereby avoid being double-taxed. This should bring the wholesale cost of your purchase down, and, in theory, it should reduce the retail price as well.

Lastly, used items would not be subject to the federal sales tax.


The Prebate
The prebate – or “annual consumption allowance” – is designed in part to relieve poverty-level Americans by providing a monthly check that would essentially offset all of their sales tax expenditures. The amount of the allowance would be based on poverty-level guidelines and would increase for larger families.

Though the prebate is geared toward poorer families, everyone would receive monthly checks, regardless of income. The prebate brings up yet another point of contention between critics and supporters. It is the most expensive element of the entire plan, would be the largest entitlement program in American history, and would constitute a welfare payment, even for those without a need. In other words, a two-parent billionaire household with two kids would receive the same monthly prebate as a two-parent, two-child household struggling to get by on $20,000 per year.

Disadvantages
Scratch the surface of this plan and it falls apart, at least for many of us. Even if forward-looking economists can argue the potential long-term benefits, they don’t appear to be big enough or sure enough to offset the near-term havoc that would be wreaked upon the middle class should such a plan go through.

Major concerns include:

  1. Penalizing the Lower and Middle Classes. Individuals and families that are above poverty level and considered middle-class will bear the brunt of the tax burden for the country. This is a progressive tax, which means that the wealthy pay more and the poor and middle class pay less as a percentage of their income. This expectation will only come true, however, if individuals spend 100% of their incomes on taxable expenditures. Taxpayers – especially wealthier citizens – are not likely to choose to live paycheck-to-paycheck. The wealthy won’t likely trade investing for spending anytime soon, so this plan would indeed be regressive – meaning those with less money will end up paying a higher percentage of their income in taxes.
  2. Increasing Potential for Tax Evasion. Such a high sales tax rate would undoubtedly lead many toevade the tax, possibly through trade and purchasing goods in other countries.
  3. Decreasing Overall Spending. Under this proposal, the best way to lower your tax burden will be to spend less. Too little spending is not good for any capitalist economy. In fact, while many current tax incentives are specifically created to drive consumer spending, the large sales tax could discourage consumers from spending freely, thus hurting the economy.
  4. Eliminating Tax Deductions and Credits. Many people derive significant benefit from common personal tax deductions, such as the home mortgage interest deduction, the child and dependent care credit, education credits and deductions, and the earned income tax credit – not to mention the ability to deduct medical bills and expenses and student loan interest. The cost of home ownership, then, could significantly rise for homeowners who currently itemize and have large interest payments. Renting would become even more appealing, and an already ailing real estate market could be devastated.
  5. Making State Income a Bigger Burden. Though federal income tax would go away, state income tax would remain, and of course it would no longer be deductible against federal taxes. The effect would be a great burden on residents of high income tax states like California. Moreover, unless you live in a sales tax free state, like Oregon or New Hampshire, you could pay your state’s sales tax on top of the Fair Tax and on top of your state’s income tax. For a family living in Los Angeles making $100,000, this would be well over 40%!
  6. Depending Too Much on Spending. Paradoxically, this tax is dependent on spending, but at the same time discourages it. Plus, since many wealthy individuals already invest on their own and in other businesses, they may be further motivated to do so. Those moves could benefit the economy overall, but since these activities would be non-taxable, the national burden shifts to the lower economic classes.
There are many articles out there that give objective opinions on the Fair Tax both Pro and Con and every single one says that it is regressive against the poor and a boon to the 1%ers.

Perhaps you should check out the Brookings Institute and their opinion...
“He (Mike Huckabee being interviewed on Fox) has the distributional benefits backwards,” wrote Gale, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a former senior economist for President George H.W. Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers. “The notion that a tax on consumption will help the poor and hurt the rich is contrary to just about everything that is known about rich/poor spending and income habits, not just our model.”
In a swipe at the FairTax program, he added: “The ‘people who spent over $20 million on this did not understand for a decade how the tax actually worked, and it took two papers by me as well as other work – for example, the Bush tax reform panel – to convince these people that they had vastly misstated the tax base because they made 20-25 percent of government disappear.”

Len Burman, the director of the Tax Policy Center, joined the fray as well. Also by email, he said that the idea that the poor would do better under the FairTax plan is simply wrong.

“This issue doesn't involve complicated economic analysis,” wrote Burman, who among other things served as a deputy assistant secretary for tax analysis in the Clinton Treasury Department. “It's simple math, and the FairTax advocates have repeatedly and willfully flubbed the math.”
“The distributional effects are pretty straightforward,” he wrote. “High-income people spend only a fraction of their income, so they effectively benefit from a giant tax exemption compared with an income tax.”