Point Guards
- Thread starter mikewebb68
- Start date
Might be true of Buie, but don't tell me that no school can recruit a PG if there's already an established, minite-crunching PG starter. That's a lazy excuse for poor recruiting.
Gaines, by your definition, is not a ballhandler. Neither are Turner and Taylor. Who said they were?
Illinois is 10-15. Don't think they will make Bob's examples of teams making the Dance. Penn State actually has a better NET raking than Illinois, And Rutgers has the worst KenPom and NET ranking in the BIG. Thus, don't know if these examples tell us much about use of multiple point guards/ballhandlers on a roster helping a team.
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Got, it, so one person said that.. In his defense we moved from a point guard discussion (which involves a lot more that ballhandling) to a ballhandling discussion where ballhandling was only recently defined by you...
Are you hoping this debate will be won or forgotten by Dance time? I won’t forget. I think it’s the perfect time to research and will provide meaningful results.
Not supporting whatever his name is, just weighing in on the importance of penetrating guards to an offense. Rutgers and Illinois have other positional deficiencies and Penn state, like us, might have turned some of their close losses into wins with a good point guard.
No according to you, it will be just beginning at Dance time, since you will be providing apparently countless examples of teams with guards who satisfy your definition of ballhandlers...I was just stating that, and you would probably agree, that using three bad BIG ten teams that have such personnel would not prove much of anyhting...
Ash has never been B1G quality on O. Gaines maybe, of the take it to the rim type - clearly no court vision. Turner has proven he is neither a distributor nor a penetrator.
Yeah my 250 Line was way to low. They are up to 29 in just one day and I don’t see either giving up. It might be better as a private message debate, but I think it will only expand during March madness.
what i am saying is if you go through MOST rosters you will see most have a dominating guard (30 min like bmac, demps, juice, lathon, buie) and then a back-up ash, greer etc...
we lost our primary 20-30 min guy (lathon) and our back up 10-20 min guy (ash)
next year we will have buie, possibly a 5th year, and greer
VerbalCommits has a pretty good depth chart function, which you can limit to a single position.
Now, it’s based on recruiting label (I think) - which means it won’t account for a SG that’s learned the point in school, or for a small SG mislabeled as a PG who is now at the 2.
But, here’s the rundown of conference PGs. I’ll exclude walk-ons.
Illinois (4): 1 JR, 2 so, 1 fr, 1 commit
Indiana (2): 1 sr, 1 fr
Iowa (2): 1 JR, 1 fr, 1 commit
Maryland (3): 1 sr, 1 jr, 1 fr
Michigan (3): 1 jr, 1 so, 1 fr
Michigan St (2): 1 jr, 1 fr, 1 commit
Minnesota (3): 3 So., 1 commit
Nebraska (2): 1 sr, 1 fr, 1 commit
OSU (4): 2 sr, 1 jr, 1 fr, 1 commit
PSU (2): 1 so, 1 fr
Purdue (2): 2 Jr, 1 commit
Rutgers (3): 2 so, 1 fr
Wisconsin (3): 2 so, 1 fr
Northwestern: 1 fr, 1 commit (and six offers to 2020 kids out)
4 PG: 2 teams
3 PG: 5 teams
2 PG: 6 teams
1 PG: 1 team
https://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/northwestern
Click ‘Depth’ and ‘PG’ and you’ll see it.
NU’s plan, if it had gone right, was to enter the season with one option, a freshman.
This is not normal. Objectively.
Now, it’s based on recruiting label (I think) - which means it won’t account for a SG that’s learned the point in school, or for a small SG mislabeled as a PG who is now at the 2.
But, here’s the rundown of conference PGs. I’ll exclude walk-ons.
Illinois (4): 1 JR, 2 so, 1 fr, 1 commit
Indiana (2): 1 sr, 1 fr
Iowa (2): 1 JR, 1 fr, 1 commit
Maryland (3): 1 sr, 1 jr, 1 fr
Michigan (3): 1 jr, 1 so, 1 fr
Michigan St (2): 1 jr, 1 fr, 1 commit
Minnesota (3): 3 So., 1 commit
Nebraska (2): 1 sr, 1 fr, 1 commit
OSU (4): 2 sr, 1 jr, 1 fr, 1 commit
PSU (2): 1 so, 1 fr
Purdue (2): 2 Jr, 1 commit
Rutgers (3): 2 so, 1 fr
Wisconsin (3): 2 so, 1 fr
Northwestern: 1 fr, 1 commit (and six offers to 2020 kids out)
4 PG: 2 teams
3 PG: 5 teams
2 PG: 6 teams
1 PG: 1 team
https://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/northwestern
Click ‘Depth’ and ‘PG’ and you’ll see it.
NU’s plan, if it had gone right, was to enter the season with one option, a freshman.
This is not normal. Objectively.
And I would question which were really PGs for many and which were SGs. For example while Ash was listed as a SG in Rivals, his role here is backup PG. Bohannon for IA was listed as a PG but plays as a SG. In other words, not accurate and if you boil it down, far less playing as PGs than you list
@hdhntr1 I realize you would question that. But NU is an outlier. You are very smart, and should recognize that NU is an outlier for having literally no backup plan.
Hopefully you can recognize that it’s rare for a program to have no options besides their incoming freshman or the grad transfer market.
Hopefully you can recognize that it’s rare for a program to have no options besides their incoming freshman or the grad transfer market.
Scout had Ash as a PG IIRC. NU beat out...from memory...DePaul, Purdue and Iowa for Ash.
Ash shot pretty well in HS from distance.
First, there was not no options besides the incoming Frosh. NU was also supposed to have a healthy Ash. And even though he actually went down last year, it was too late to really bring in anyone else, NU has always had trouble recruiting PGs other that when the position is open so many of ours have started from the first game as true Frosh. From Newman to TJ to Micheal Thompson to Sobo to BMac. This is not new and something CCC came up with. Maybe true PGs don't value education like guys in other positions. A lot of success in our PG recruiting has to do with timing. When CCC got here he was able to get BMac (even while having Sobo for a year) as he was a new HC. But after BMac was here and established, getting a true PG for the following two years was not in the cards. So CCC tried to get depth by looking at the edges bringing in guys like Ash and Brown who could potentially handle the position for 5-10 mpg while having other options to get on the floor. Brown never really embraced the idea and while Ash did, health has stood in the way. Last year when BMac went down, Ash could have gotten valuable minutes but unfortunately he was down as well. He would have been pretty valuable as a backup to Lathon this year but health again got in the way.
Prior to Lathon doing what he did and Ash still being down, we were in pretty descent position for this year. The combination left us without both our starting PG and backup. Had Ash not been injured, even without Lathon (but with Greer) the situation would look far different. Maybe you could say CCC was premature running off Brown but he was sort of a black hole when the ball got into his hands
A backup plan for Lathon doing what he did? How do you have a backup plan for that, late in the recruiting cycle? (Well CCC did do pretty well to bring in Greer) But the other part of the backup plan was Ash and injuries derailed that. It was not that they had no options. It was those options were derailed by injury so late in the cycle that they could not be adjusted for.
You are trying to say NU only had one PG on the roster but they have two as Ash is one and Greer two. It was supposed to be Lathon and Ash. Maybe not ideal in your mind but a reasonable mix
Cool. So you are not acknowledging that NU was an outlier for having a point guard depth chart consisting of 1) a true freshman and 2) a three-year bit player who was considered to be a SG by all recruiting sites. That’s fine.
Objectively, NU was an outlier this season, even if Plan A worked out.
We would have been in better shape than NU usually has been over the years. And the teams you listed truly do not have the depth at the position you suggest. They were slated to have the 30 mpg guy and an adequate backup. And Ash was recruited here as a PG. Again, I listed 5 NU PGs that started from the first game of their Frosh year. Several of them were 4 year starters at the position or would have been. Recruiting quality PGs at most schools is an issue if they do not have significant minutes to offer within a reasonable amount of time. Just remember that about 60-75% of the guys out there can not get into NU making it a lot more difficult here.
Also if you look forward to next year, we will have Greer, Buie and potentially Ash and they are working on trying to get another PG in the 2020 class. So the anomaly of this year (caused by Lathon) will be behind us. Lathon would have been the highest rated PG recruit at NU as far back as I can remember so his antics did a number on us. His presence here would likely have put a damper on additional PG recruiting for a couple years. But in the long run, what happened might put us in better position. Greer not being ready enabled continued PG recruiting. Even if Greer takes over the position, he has not yet so it still looks like available minutes for a top guy
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Hey Mike, mike, mike, mike - guess what day it is?
It is the day somebody found some pretty interesting data day
Guess there was more than one mistaken coach. And how have those teams done over the past four years???
Ok - then CCC as a recruiter is on par with historical coaches? I thought one of his strengths is recruiting? So what does that mean? He can bring in 100 wings, some four stars that hit and others that miss and so on? I would expect a really good recruiter to be able to overcome some things - what does he overcome?
OK, on to the "ballhandling: guard evaluation from last night's BIG game, using IGNORE's criteria:
Wisky-- In theory they run a 3 guard offense, but Khalil Iverson appears to be a guard in name only; he does all of his work down low, and barely handles the ball up top. So essentially our guards our Dmitirk and Brad Davison. Dmitrik appeas to be the primary ball handler, but it appears that Davison switches to that role when Trice is out, neihter sits very much at 32 mpg. Both, however, can create their own shot, and both have Assist/TO ratios above the magic number of 1.75 (Davison at 1.9 and Trice just barely at 1.79, so Bob's criteria are indeed satisfied on this team that is a lock for the Dance
Illinois -- satisifes Bob's criteria as well, but probably does not fill out a roster in a way that Bob would like. They literally have 1,000 guards (OK, I'm exaggerating just a bit) start 4 of them, and play an amazing 7 in their 9-man rotation. The only non-guards that played t least 10 minutes last night was starting forward Giorgi B. and Center Adonis DeLaRosa, who manages less than 9 minutes per game. Although litterally every guard handles the ball in the half-court-- they run this odd weave offense that I think they borrowed from Virginia-- Trent Frazier brings the ball up the court most possessions, with plenty of guards to back him up when he does not. Trent's a turnover machine, though, (1.22 Assist/TO) so he is so far off from 1.75 he won't meet Bob's criteria. But fortunately for Bob, there are plenty of other guards to choose from here; Aaron Jordan (1.85 A/TO) is clearly a ball handler when he's in there, as is Ayo Dosumu (1.45 A/TO). Ayo can create so well that I believe that both I and XBob can forgive an assist-TO ratio that is a bit under the benchmark. Not exactly the roster I would desire (they are 277th in the nation in total rebounding even with their recent hot streak), but score another one for Bob.
So I was shut out last night, and the total score is now 3-1 Bob. But if we exclude Illinois (they are 10-16 so their model is hardly a success story, and they most certainly won't be appearing in Bob's upcoming Dance analysis of teams) it is more of a ballgame at 2-1 Bob.
I
Wisky-- In theory they run a 3 guard offense, but Khalil Iverson appears to be a guard in name only; he does all of his work down low, and barely handles the ball up top. So essentially our guards our Dmitirk and Brad Davison. Dmitrik appeas to be the primary ball handler, but it appears that Davison switches to that role when Trice is out, neihter sits very much at 32 mpg. Both, however, can create their own shot, and both have Assist/TO ratios above the magic number of 1.75 (Davison at 1.9 and Trice just barely at 1.79, so Bob's criteria are indeed satisfied on this team that is a lock for the Dance
Illinois -- satisifes Bob's criteria as well, but probably does not fill out a roster in a way that Bob would like. They literally have 1,000 guards (OK, I'm exaggerating just a bit) start 4 of them, and play an amazing 7 in their 9-man rotation. The only non-guards that played t least 10 minutes last night was starting forward Giorgi B. and Center Adonis DeLaRosa, who manages less than 9 minutes per game. Although litterally every guard handles the ball in the half-court-- they run this odd weave offense that I think they borrowed from Virginia-- Trent Frazier brings the ball up the court most possessions, with plenty of guards to back him up when he does not. Trent's a turnover machine, though, (1.22 Assist/TO) so he is so far off from 1.75 he won't meet Bob's criteria. But fortunately for Bob, there are plenty of other guards to choose from here; Aaron Jordan (1.85 A/TO) is clearly a ball handler when he's in there, as is Ayo Dosumu (1.45 A/TO). Ayo can create so well that I believe that both I and XBob can forgive an assist-TO ratio that is a bit under the benchmark. Not exactly the roster I would desire (they are 277th in the nation in total rebounding even with their recent hot streak), but score another one for Bob.
So I was shut out last night, and the total score is now 3-1 Bob. But if we exclude Illinois (they are 10-16 so their model is hardly a success story, and they most certainly won't be appearing in Bob's upcoming Dance analysis of teams) it is more of a ballgame at 2-1 Bob.
I
And CCC has brought NU recruiting overall to a different level. That does not mean that there will not be bumps along the way. Injures are always tough to deal with and we have had our share. Are you going to hold that against him? I mean, think about it, Last year be had BMac and Law down for a portion of the year, Rap basically out of it from the beginning, Falzon hampered and Ash down as well. No team could withstand that.
The mark of a good recruiter is that he is able to bring in his targets and CCC has done that. No one could have predicted what happened with Lathon. But he made the most of it getting Greer who looks to be good but not ready. And again, Falzon down, Ash down, Law down for part of the year, Nance down for illness. There is some that good recruiting can overcome but this is just too much
My math says he won’t be eligible.
He has played in 10 games.
The maximum one can play in and be eligible for medical redshirt is 30% of team games.
Northwestern has six regular season games left, which will give them 31 total.
In order to meet the 30% threshold, they will need to get to 33 games.
So, a medical redshirt *might* be contingent on getting to game 33 - which is to say, winning day one of the conference tourney.