POLL: Is there a God ??

[HymanKaplan_rivals48997]

LOL_Man said:

"What we understand in science is backed by solid observable and testable data across time in the fossil record and DNA evidence right up until today."

100 percent correct. Abiogenesis though, doesn't fall under that category. (yet)

Nothing. Nothing in the 70 years that this theory has been around has even moved the needle towards confirming it. Fossil records, in fact, have actually made it seem LESS likely . The deepest cores that we've been able to take so far, indicate that complex life appeared quite suddenly and in abundance. That could change tomorrow though. I'm ALL FOR learning all we can. And discovering the process by which life can be created would benefit mankind in ways we probably can't even comprehend yet.

My ONLY beef with you, is your stubborn insistence that Science, little by little is confirming this (not saying they won't mind you),when, in fact they're not (not to imply that they should stop trying) And no amount of arguing with me will change that. It hasn't been DISPROVEN (not sure that is even possible) either but that's not what you're arguing.

You're such a big fan of science (I am too) that it surprises me you don't already know this. (sincerely, no sarcasm intended) I think that YOU believe my agenda is to bolster my belief that Earth had some help, and that is absolutely not the case. And that never was my intention. If I gave that impression, it was a mistake on MY part. And I fully realize that Christian Fundamentalism (taking the Bible literally IOW) comes across as pretty silly, and I don't hold to that.

 

[Beatle Bum]

In chemistry, inorganic material has a specific meaning - not containing carbon atoms.

It’s kind of like defining a word with the very word you intend to define. Carbon is identified with organic, but only because we know life, as we know it, is carbon-based. Carbon, pre-life, was … just carbon.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Again with the Bible LOL
If there are TWO alternatives: Happened on it's own OR something created it (forget the Bible etc.)
and there is no evidence for either ONE, then well, yes, one IS as good as the other. And yet, you keep insisting that one is absurd and the other is not because someone TOLD you to take their word for it in spite of the fact they have nothing tangible to support that idea. (a literal definition of religion)

What is so hard to understand about that? LOL

Creator/Design is independent of Biblical information.

Some claim science as the basis of their unbelief in God. But, a scientist who sees order in a universe that favors disorder and the complexity of the simplest DNA chain can determine God exists. If so, his/her foundation for belief is science.

If you follow the abiogenesis argument, that scientist proved God with science.

 

[Beatle Bum]

You need to take a position. If you're in the "something" crowd then was it a biblical creation or aliens sprinkling us on monkeys?

I'll stick with the following as the best we understand right now:

Simple organic molecules were formed from gradual evolutionary complexity over time.

Replicating molecules evolved and began to undergo natural selection.

Replicating molecules became enclosed within a cell membrane.

Some cells began to evolve modern metabolic processes and out-competed those with older forms of metabolism.

Eventually Multicellularity evolved.

From soup to cells: The origin of life

LOL! Man!!!! That is not science. That is faith!!

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Now that the poll is closed, I must say I’m surprised that 25% of respondents said no. Happily surprised. But surprised none the less.

 

[megablue]

Now that the poll is closed, I must say I’m surprised that 25% of respondents said no. Happily surprised. But surprised none the less.

I am surprised, too, but I expected the NO votes to about 30%-35%, based on various data that I’d seen. Thanks, again, to all who voted and shared thoughts and comments. I enjoyed reading so many thoughtful exchanges.

Disclosure: I am 70 years old and now an atheist, after 45 years as a practicing Catholic.
To me, faith is simply belief without convincing evidence. I had to be honest with myself, after thoughtful consideration, that I did not have faith and was a non-believer.

 

[Beatle Bum]

I am surprised, too, but I expected the NO votes to about 30%-35%, based on various data that I’d seen. Thanks, again, to all who voted and shared thoughts and comments. I enjoyed reading so many thoughtful exchanges.

Disclosure: I am 70 years old and now an atheist, after 45 years as a practicing Catholic.
To me, faith is simply belief without convincing evidence. I had to be honest with myself, after thoughtful consideration, that I did not have faith and was a non-believer.

What do you mean by “practicing Catholic?” I suspect I was raised to be Catholic and have known Catholics. I think that phrase means different things to different people. I am curious as to how you define the phrase.

 

[HymanKaplan_rivals48997]

"Faith and doubt go hand in hand. They are complimentary. One who never doubts will never truly believe."

~ Hermann Hesse

 

[megablue]

What do you mean by “practicing Catholic?” I suspect I was raised to be Catholic and have known Catholics. I think that phrase means different things to different people. I am curious as to how you define the phrase.

Going to church regularly and receiving the sacraments regularly. To me, practicing means following the teachings of the church, in thought and action.
I was a regular usher, brought veterans from a veterans center to church each Sunday and regularly worked parish events, like Fish Fry Fridays, collection of food for the homeless, collection of gifts for needy children, etc … I was an active parishioner. Earlier in life, grade school and high school, I was an extremely active server and reader at Mass.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Going to church regularly and receiving the sacraments regularly. To me, practicing means following the teachings of the church, in thought and action.
I was a regular usher, brought veterans from a veterans center to church each Sunday and regularly worked parish events, like Fish Fry Fridays, collection of food for the homeless, collection of gifts for needy children, etc … I was an active parishioner. Earlier in life, grade school and high school, I was an extremely active server and reader at Mass.

Did you go to confession regularly? Do penance as prescribed by the priest? Avoid the sacraments when you did not participate in confession and penance?

 

[megablue]

Did you go to confession regularly? Do penance as prescribed by the priest? Avoid the sacraments when you did not participate in confession and penance?

Of course, until I made up my mind that I no longer believed in God and the teachings of the church.
I had what I believe the Greeks called a "metanoia" and I've never looked back.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Of course, until I made up my mind that I no longer believed in God and the teachings of the church.
I had what I believe the Greeks called a "metanoia" and I've never looked back.

Thanks for the responses. I find most post Vatican II Catholics don’t know Catholicism and most don’t practice the faith. Now, going to church is not the same as worshipping. And, many Catholics are still not readers of scripture. And, many just go through the rote motions. That was my experiences with Catholics. But, if you took confession and penance seriously, you probably were in the minority, as adults.

 

[megablue]

Thanks for the responses. I find most post Vatican II Catholics don’t know Catholicism and most don’t practice the faith. Now, going to church is not the same as worshipping. And, many Catholics are still not readers of scripture. And, many just go through the rote motions. That was my experiences with Catholics. But, if you took confession and penance seriously, you probably were in the minority, as adults.

Keep in mind I am 70 years old and grew up through parochial school tradition, including daily mass, daily communion, weekly confession, weekly rosaries, novenas, holy days of obligation, etc …
Most people in the “modern” church, especially converts, probably could not tell you what transubstantiation is, much less believe in it.

 

[csrupp]

Clarify for me what you're referring to please.

1. In 1964, Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias discovered cosmic microwave background radiation. This has been called the "echo of the big bang" because it is the energy left over after the universe came into existence. Thus the universe had a beginning.

2. "Beginning" to exist is an active process that requires a causal agent. That causal agent must exist outside of the universe because it existed before it caused the universe. That causal agent must be timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and extremely powerful. Give it whatever name you want to but traditionally that is the description of god.

 

[megablue]

BIG BANG trivia that perhaps fits well in this thread … it is interesting to note that a Catholic priest from Belgium is generally considered to have “discovered” or “proposed” the “Big Bang” and later called it “the beginning of the world.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

 

[Beatle Bum]

1. In 1964, Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias discovered cosmic microwave background radiation. This has been called the "echo of the big bang" because it is the energy left over after the universe came into existence. Thus the universe had a beginning.

2. "Beginning" to exist is an active process that requires a causal agent. That causal agent must exist outside of the universe because it existed before it caused the universe. That causal agent must be timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and extremely powerful. Give it whatever name you want to but traditionally that is the description of god.

The complexity of life and the fact that apparently all of the mass of the universe, all space and time burst on to the scene in an instant from nothing or essentially nothing must pique the interest of the intellectually curious. But, then, if you don’t think you can exist beyond the corporal essence of your life, how you or anything began may also not matter much. An external force of unbridled power not bound by time, matter, or space is a profound concept.

 

[csrupp]

An external force of unbridled power not bound by time, matter, or space is a profound concept.

And proven by science to exist.

 

[csrupp]

The complexity of life and the fact that apparently all of the mass of the universe, all space and time burst on to the scene in an instant from nothing or essentially nothing must pique the interest of the intellectually curious. But, then, if you don’t think you can exist beyond the corporal essence of your life, how you or anything began may also not matter much. An external force of unbridled power not bound by time, matter, or space is a profound concept.

The average atheist can't even figure out what a woman is, much less understand complex concepts.

 

[LOL_Man]

Disclosure: I am 70 years old and now an atheist, after 45 years as a practicing Catholic.
To me, faith is simply belief without convincing evidence. I had to be honest with myself, after thoughtful consideration, that I did not have faith and was a non-believer.

In this entire thread, these are the lines I felt the most and thank you for that. There is an honest deep truth in them. A man becomes at peace with himself. It reminds me of Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men when he said he always thought when he got older that God would come into his life but he never did:

 

[megablue]

Regardless of where you stand on the God issue, here is a live performance that is God-like, in my humble opinion. This was from The Isle of Wight festival in 1970, with Jethro Tull performing after the Moody Blues and before Jimi Hendrix. I have seen Tull several times and have always been totally blown away by their extreme musicianship. How they are not in the RNR HOF is simply a complete travesty … MY GOD !!!

 

[chroix]

As to who's to say which "god," He is. Jesus is qualitatively different to other "gods."

There is no God but Him.

Don’t they all say that? Why your God and not someone else’s?

 

[megablue]

Don’t they all say that? Why your God and not someone else’s?

I think it is generally fair to say that the vast majority of believers’ God of “choice” is based on place of birth and parental influence. That seems both obvious and logical. No surprise …

 

[chroix]

I think it is generally fair to say that believers’ God of “choice” is based on place of birth and parental influence. That seems both obvious and logical.

I’d assume they’re in the US. Lots of religious options available.

 

[megablue]

Here is a short video, posted 2 weeks ago, that folks may find interesting. It discusses the Amazing Apostates and the Amazing Believers. Primarily, there are those who seek truth and those who seek love, support and community. Regardless of where you stand on faith, I think you will find the video is thought-provoking.

 

[megablue]

I’d assume they’re in the US. Lots of religious options available.

I think that it is the case throughout the entire world. You do not pick your place of birth, you do not pick your parents, thus, you do not pick your God and religion … most generally-speaking, of course. That is fair to say …

 

[chroix]

I think that it is the case through the entire world. You do not pick your place of birth, you do not pick your parents, thus, you do not pick your God and religion … most generally-speaking, of course. That is fair to say …

Sure. That definitely used to be the case but I think since the 60s, particularly in the US and the West, that has begun to change on an increasingly large scale. I know a number of people that do not practice the same religion their grandparents practiced.

 

[megablue]

Sure. That definitely used to be the case but I think since the 60s, particularly in the US and the West, that has begun to change on an increasingly large scale. I know a number of people that do not practice the same religion their grandparents practiced.

Damn !! That’s wild !! I do not know anyone who has switched from Christian to another religion, or vice versa, although I know MANY people who were former believers and now do not believe in any God … Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise.

 

[SDC888]

Don’t they all say that? Why your our God and not someone else’s?

Other 'gods' require you to do something for them, like Islam is essentially about submitting yourself completely to allah, being his slave, then he may or may not reward you. Hinduism is essentially about working your way to rejoining some god, where you achieve a state of moksha, enlightenment where you returh to that god and dissolve into it. Buddhism is about understanding and following Buddha's philosophy to achieve peace in this life etc.

That's nothing like accepting Jesus, whom the Believer has a personal relationship with by grace, who is the only way, the truth and the life.

I’d assume they’re in the US. Lots of religious options available.

I wasn't raised in a Christian family, but I was raised in the west. If I had my druthers, and God was just some al la carte religion I picked, it wouldn't have been Christianity. I disagreed with it on fundamental levels, thought many of the same ideas expressed here and by other atheists. I was however never antagonistic or hostile toward the "idea."

I simply thought it was something people chose to believe in out of convenience, to help them live their lives through its struggles and the social aspect, and I never really saw any difference growing up between a professed believer and not. I recognized though later that it brought people some demonstrable value to their lives, but I never thoguht it, or any other religion for that matter, was for me.

IN other words, I was never a seeker, bu itt was something akin to looking for your car keys for 30 minutes only to realize they were in your pocket the whole time. There was never really an "option," just wasted time. The keys were always they were.

 

[LOL_Man]

Other 'gods' require you to do something for them, like Islam is essentially about submitting yourself completely to allah, being his slave, then he may or may not reward you. Hinduism is essentially about working your way to rejoining some god, where you achieve a state of moksha, enlightenment where you returh to that god and dissolve into it. Buddhism is about understanding and following Buddha's philosophy to achieve peace in this life etc.

That's nothing like accepting Jesus, whom the Believer has a personal relationship with by grace, who is the only way, the truth and the life.

I wasn't raised in a Christian family, but I was raised in the west. If I had my druthers, and God was just some al la carte religion I picked, it wouldn't have been Christianity. I disagreed with it on fundamental levels, thought many of the same ideas expressed here and by other atheists. I was however never antagonistic or hostile toward the "idea."

I simply thought it was something people chose to believe in out of convenience, to help them live their lives through its struggles and the social aspect, and I never really saw any difference growing up between a professed believer and not. I recognized though later that it brought people some demonstrable value to their lives, but I never thoguht it, or any other religion for that matter, was for me.

The arrogance of this is staggering but I would expect you don't realize that.

IN other words, I was never a seeker, bu itt was something akin to looking for your car keys for 30 minutes only to realize they were in your pocket the whole time. There was never really an "option," just wasted time. The keys were always they were.

Funny you mention that as I have a story that believers love because it is a true story from, well, me... and it is certainly not from somebody prone to flights of religious fantasy.

I went to a large cinema plex with about 20 different movie theaters many years ago. I love movies and I'd go to the big theaters and pay for one movie but walk around and see a couple as they openly kind of encouraged it because they want to keep you in there buying food as that's where they make all their money.

I had two movies picked out and I'd write the movie times down in my pocket on a small slip of paper and go see my movie, consult my list in the bathroom as you could never be sure of when the movie you just saw would end and the next begin so I would have options, then head off to the next on my list depending on which was the most convenient time-wise.

So I see my movie and then head to the bathroom and reach into my pocket to consult my list but I can't find it anywhere? I search frantically in every pocket, then realize I lost it, so I decide I might as well just pop in and watch Passion of the Christ as I walked right by that showing and it was just about to start. So I see the movie. I've never been in one more emotionally impacting to an audience. They were universally dead quiet except for understandingly loud sobbing in the excruciating moments and as simply a film it was a deeply moving experience. I have a poster of the theater flyer hanging in my mancave signed by Mel Gibson himself.

Anyway, I finish seeing the movie and leave the theater and reach into my pocket for my keys and right there the first thing I touch is my list I couldn't find before?

I'm not suggesting a thing as I certainly am not a believer. I am just saying that shook me to the core it was so shocking. Over time I have dismissed it but to this day it nags at me, still.

 

[HymanKaplan_rivals48997]

My only wish is that atheists would refrain from depicting those that believe in a God (not necessarily the God of the New or Old Testament) as somehow intellectually inferior.
Atheists, Agnostics, God believers, ALL firmly believe in things that have no proof. And they are ALL largely unaware that there IS no proof for what they believe in.

 

[HymanKaplan_rivals48997]

Faith is an integral part of the human experience, whether you believe in a God or not.

 

[SDC888]

The arrogance of this is staggering but I would expect you don't realize that.

I fully appreciate why you feel that way.

I've never been in one more emotionally impacting to an audience.

Maybe there's a reason for that you don't appreciate.

(incidentally, I used to be pretty in to film my self. I saw the Passion in theatre... i didn't have any emotional response. Forrest Gump was more emotionally arousing to me)

My only wish is that atheists would refrain from depicting those that believe in a God (not necessarily the God of the New or Old Testament) as somehow intellectually inferior.
Atheists, Agnostics, God believers, ALL firmly believe in things that have no proof. And they are ALL largely unaware that there IS no proof for what they believe in.

Speaking of arrogance, that's what bothered Christopher Hitchens the most about Christianity; that there werepeople of superior intelligence who believed.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Don’t they all say that? Why your God and not someone else’s?

If you don’t believe in God, what difference does it make?

 

[Beatle Bum]

I think it is generally fair to say that the vast majority of believers’ God of “choice” is based on place of birth and parental influence. That seems both obvious and logical. No surprise …

The greatest growth in Christian belief occurred in Africa and China over the past 20 years. Born to be Christian.

 

[Ron Mehico]

My only wish is that atheists would refrain from depicting those that believe in a God (not necessarily the God of the New or Old Testament) as somehow intellectually inferior.
Atheists, Agnostics, God believers, ALL firmly believe in things that have no proof. And they are ALL largely unaware that there IS no proof for what they believe in.

My father, a Princeton trained PhD, full bright scholar, and former professor of Physical Chemistry is a devout Christian. There are MILLIONS of people like him that believe. To equate lack of intelligence with faith I always found ridiculous.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

My only wish is that atheists would refrain from depicting those that believe in a God (not necessarily the God of the New or Old Testament) as somehow intellectually inferior.
Atheists, Agnostics, God believers, ALL firmly believe in things that have no proof. And they are ALL largely unaware that there IS no proof for what they believe in.

Religion just doesn't serve the purpose it used to. Created by men to control others and to explain things humans couldn't do at the time.

Now we have billion dollar corporations that control people and modern science to help explain phenomenon.

 

[megablue]

If you don’t believe in God, what difference does it make?

I think the single, biggest issue for non-believers and liberal believers is probably that religious beliefs are not just kept separate and personal from from science, politics and public policy throughout the world. I would suggest that a push to teach creationism and intelligent design in classrooms, right along side evolution and natural selection, is an example of what non-believers take issue with.

Christopher Hitchens, in my view, a great man of principle and reason, was asked at a debate the question of "if there is no God, why do you spend your whole life trying to convince people that there isn't, why not just stay at home?" Here was his answer ... and it seems to address your question, to some extent, of "what difference does it make?"

 

[Beatle Bum]

I think the single, biggest issue for non-believers and liberal believers is probably that religious beliefs are not just kept separate and personal from from science, politics and public policy throughout the world.

Christopher Hitchens, in my view, a great man of principle and reason, was asked at a debate the question of "if there is no God, why do you spend your whole life trying to convince people that there isn't, why not just stay at home?" Here was his answer ... and it seems to address your question, to some extent, of "what difference does it make?"

Hitchens was an evangelical atheist. Hard to complain about people injecting their religious beliefs when he dedicated a big portion of his life to doing just that.

 

[megablue]

Hitchens was an evangelical atheist. Hard to complain about people injecting their religious beliefs when he dedicated a big portion of his life to doing just that.

Clearly, he loved to debate the issue of God and religion, absolutely no question about it. I certainly would never pretend to speak for him, but my sense was always that he primarily wanted peoples' beliefs to be kept personal and not in government, even if he did not agree with them. Full and complete separation of church and state was a primary focus of his, it seemed to me. I miss listening to him talk about God, religion and other issues. To me, he was a great man of principle, reason and extreme wit.

 

[megablue]

My father, a Princeton trained PhD, full bright scholar, and former professor of Physical Chemistry is a devout Christian. There are MILLIONS of people like him that believe. To equate lack of intelligence with faith I always found ridiculous.

Frances Collins addressed the issue of science and faith. Perhaps your Father knew him.
I would not be surprised. Collins is also a scientist who is a "serious Christian" ... like your Dad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins

"By graduate school, Collins considered himself agnostic. However, a conversation with a hospital patient led him to question his lack of religious views, and he investigated various faiths. He familiarized himself with the evidence for and against God in cosmology, and on the recommendation of a Methodist minister used Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis as a foundation to develop his religious views. He believes that people cannot be converted to Christianity by reason and argument alone, and that the final stage of conversion entails a "leap of faith". After several years of deliberation, he finally converted to Christianity during a trip to the Cascade Mountains, where he describes a striking image of a frozen waterfall as removing his final resistance, resulting in his conversion the following morning.[98] He has described himself as a "serious Christian"."

https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...enter poll,the other major scientific fields.