POLL: Is there a God ??

Is there a God ??


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SDC337

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What you don't understand is that none of that is reason to conclude what you do, even Cox and Tyson would be forced to admit this to you.. THere's absolutley no way of us knowing anythhing about any "chances" of life originating anwywhere: zero, zip, zilch, nada. Agan, they are wild-arse guessing, not making scientific claims.

The same criticism you (general atheists) levy at Intelligent Design, namely that it is untestable, no defined scientific mechanism) can be equally applied to abiogenesis. THe critical difference though is that the former is an inference from observation, while the latter is a conclusion in search of a justification.

Here's a thought experiment. Let's say some quantum computer AI advancement thingamajig occurs in your lifetime where the computer crunches the numbers and proves life from matter biochemically impossible, what's your response?

Projecting is not concluding. It’s a way of estimating based on observations. You do it all the time in your daily life. You project your grocery budget for a year, for example, based on your observations of what and how much foods your family consumes.


General atheists? LOL. We’re not organized. We simply share a disbelief in the supernatural.

ID can be summarized in a simple sentence: Nature is so complex that there had to be a creator. It’s interesting that you would deny my projection of the possibility of habitable planets based upon observation but tout ID by claiming it’s an “inference from observation.” Agenda much?


A thought experiment is a hypothetical scenario used to test a theory, principle, or hypothesis. Yours is not a thought experiment since it isn’t designed to examine any of these three scientific approaches to a particular phenomenon. It is, rather, a fantasy from your mind.

You don't have any appreciation of what I'm explaining to you.

It doesn ;t matter how many habitable planets there are: you can project nothing about the chances of life being there. Nothing. I know hat. Cox knows that. Tyson knows that.

You know what is actually screaming at you? The reality that there are infinite habitable planets in the Universe; we've yet to detect life. Everywhere we look, in every direction: NO LIFE.

And what I gave you is by definition a thought experiment. Why don't you answer it instead of trying to turn it into some sort of an attack?
 
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KenTucker

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Ken Tucker ... I'm not scientifically literate enough to join in these exchanges, but I find them very interesting to read and consider.
I've seen recent news about K2-18b, which has been recently picked up by the JWST to help confirm earlier imagery and theses from 2015.

Below is a cut-and-past AI Overview, fwiw:
"K2-18b is a super-Earth exoplanet, located 124 light-years away in the constellation Leo, and is known for being within the habitable zone of its star, a cool red dwarf. Recent studies have detected potential signs of life on the planet, specifically the presence of methane and carbon dioxide in its atmosphere, and also possible hints of dimethyl sulfide, a molecule produced by life on Earth. However, these findings are still under investigation and some scientists express skepticism."



Just curious ... are you, and others here, familiar with K2-18b and the prospects for life there ??
If so, I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks, in advance, to all who care to share regarding this relatively recent discovery.

Carry on ...
The flurry of excitement about K2-18b has abated. The initial results that indicated the presence of dimethyl sulfide in its atmosphere (at 5 times as much as that within earth’s atmosphere) has been shown to be a miscalculation upon closer examination. There were even thoughts that dimethyl disulfide would be found based upon the incredible amounts of dimethyl sulfide seen.

Dimethyl sulfide would be strong evidence of the presence of life but the second one, dimethyl disulfide, would be almost conclusive since we know of no other way for it to be produced short of metabolism by living organisms.

It’s disappointing but does show how excitement can cause scientists to misread data. Thankfully, the scientific method always catches these mistakes.

K2-18 is a dwarf red star and is prone to regular solar flares. Because its planet(s) orbit so close to it, these flares have a dramatic effect on their atmospheres, usually blowing them off entirely. Also, again due to the close proximity of red dwarfs to their planets, tidal locking is common where only one side of a planet is always facing its star.

It’s unlikely that life will be found on many, if any, planets orbiting red dwarfs because of their hostile environments. More likely, stars like our sun and orange stars (slightly smaller than our sun) will have the best candidate planets.
 
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Beatle Bum

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Well, that’s better than “false.” Not much, though.
Are you one of those if-I-didn’t-see-it-,-it-didn’t-happen thinkers?


No, it isn’t. It’s a projection based upon observations. Nearly 6,000 exoplanets have been detected to date and 20% of the Sun-like stars have rocky planets within their habitable zones. If we project those numbers on the entire Milky Way, we can expect there are about 30 billion earth-like planets in our galaxy.

That’s a lot. So, the chances of life originating on any of them is significant since they are in solar systems with a sun-like star, have a composition similar to earth and orbit within the habitable zone.
Dude, you are dodging the main issue and just making an assumption that is not evidenced. Wow. Your faith is strong, as is your evasiveness.
 

KenTucker

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You don't have any appreciation of what I'm explaining to you.

It doesn ;t matter how many habitable planets there are: you can project nothing about the chances of life being there. Nothing. I know hat. Cox knows that. Tyson knows that.

You know what is actually screaming at you? The reality that there are infinite habitable planets in the Universe; we've yet to detect life. Everywhere we look, in every direction: NO LIFE.

And what I gave you is by definition a thought experiment. Why don't you answer it instead of trying to turn it into some sort of an attack?
Well, I’m seeing that we have views that are too disparate. You don’t seem to understand how the scientific method works. I would guess that your background is highly religious and so your thoughts and reasoning are strongly influenced by theism.

I’m old and I’ve had my fill of theism and it’s terrible effects on people. I am a hardcore reductionist and my thought processes exclude theism entirely. I find it taxing to engage in conversations with anyone who defends religion so I ask that we end this one.
 

KenTucker

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Dude, you are dodging the main issue and just making an assumption that is not evidenced. Wow. Your faith is strong, as is your evasiveness.
Okay, please remind me of the “main issue.”

I have not made any assumptions. Assumptions are based on a lack of observations; I have listed observations.

You seem to be trying to pick a fight rather than to offer any kind of evidence, theoretical or otherwise, to bolster your position.
 

SDC337

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Well, I’m seeing that we have views that are too disparate. You don’t seem to understand how the scientific method works. I would guess that your background is highly religious and so your thoughts and reasoning are strongly influenced by theism.

I’m old and I’ve had my fill of theism and it’s terrible effects on people. I am a hardcore reductionist and my thought processes exclude theism entirely. I find it taxing to engage in conversations with anyone who defends religion so I ask that we end this one.

No; you are as wrong there as they you are elsewhere. I can guarantee you with complete certainty that my understading of how the scietnific method works is not insufficient.

And I was once an atheist, not just agnostic. I was convinced God was simply an idea, people needed something to make sense of relaity and for me just living it was sense enough. Yes, your "reasoning" (it's not reasoned) is ultimately simply an emotion. The "argument" is entirely rooted in emotion. You start with an emotion, antipathy towards religion, and then justify that emotion to yourself. You shouldn't have posted to the thread if you weren't interested in participation. I apologize for the discomfort my posting style caused, but this is in my view a serious matter. The most serious.
 
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SDC337

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Okay, please remind me of the “main issue.”

I have not made any assumptions. Assumptions are based on a lack of observations; I have listed observations.

You seem to be trying to pick a fight rather than to offer any kind of evidence, theoretical or otherwise, to bolster your position.

The assumption is abiogenesis; it happened here, so it can happen elswhere.

We don't know that. We don't know it happeend here. We don't know if it could happen elsewhere.
 

Beatle Bum

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Okay, please remind me of the “main issue.”

I have not made any assumptions. Assumptions are based on a lack of observations; I have listed observations.

You seem to be trying to pick a fight rather than to offer any kind of evidence, theoretical or otherwise, to bolster your position.
Okay. It’s hard for me to believe you don’t get this, but I will explain more. Your comments are premised upon a fallacy. The fallacy is abiogenesis. There is no proof to support the theory. So, making the leap that something unproven could be happening someplace else in the universe under the right conditions, when there is no evidence such conditions ever existed here is a specious position. Belief in abiogenesis is premised solely on faith, not any result of the scientist method, which you claim to understand.
 

KenTucker

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Okay. It’s hard for me to believe you don’t get this, but I will explain more. Your comments are premised upon a fallacy. The fallacy is abiogenesis. There is no proof to support the theory. So, making the leap that something unproven could be happening someplace else in the universe under the right conditions, when there is no evidence such conditions ever existed here is a specious position. Belief in abiogenesis is premised solely on faith, not any result of the scientist method, which you claim to understand.
Wow, you just don’t understand science. There are no absolutes, assumptions, beliefs, facts or proofs in science. These are not scientific terms. Stop insisting that they be provided to satisfy you. There are hypothesis, theory, math, experiment and observational evidence. Everything is open to modification based upon new discoveries. Until you can understand this critical difference between science and the human experience, you’ll always be baffled by scientists and the way they pursue knowledge.
 

Beatle Bum

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Wow, you just don’t understand science. There are no absolutes, assumptions, beliefs, facts or proofs in science. These are not scientific terms. Stop insisting that they be provided to satisfy you. There are hypothesis, theory, math, experiment and observational evidence. Everything is open to modification based upon new discoveries. Until you can understand this critical difference between science and the human experience, you’ll always be baffled by scientists and the way they pursue knowledge.
LOL

I think it is you that does not understand science, but then also claims to rely upon science for your wild speculation.

ID is a scientific theory. It has more evidence to support it than does abiogenesis. So, forget “religion” and let’s talk about whether the Designer created life on other planets in addition to earth.
 

KenTucker

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LOL

I think it is you that does not understand science, but then also claims to rely upon science for your wild speculation.

ID is a scientific theory. It has more evidence to support it than does abiogenesis. So, forget “religion” and let’s talk about whether the Designer created life on other planets in addition to earth.
Oh, you’re one of those people who wants to conflate religion with science by putting ID out there as a non-religious, independent scientific theory. That’s hilarious.

I’m getting too old. I should have picked up on your agenda sooner. So ID is no longer considered “stealth religion” by you folks who are trying to get it into schools? Going with the idea that it’s just another scientific approach? All while saying things like “the Designer created?” LOL
 

Beatle Bum

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Oh, you’re one of those people who wants to conflate religion with science by putting ID out there as a non-religious, independent scientific theory. That’s hilarious.
Belief in design is no more religion than belief in abiogenesis. You have duped yourself and clearly do not follow methods of science or you would not dismiss design without a scientific explanation. You are not as clever as you think.

I’m getting too old. I should have picked up on your agenda sooner. So ID is no longer considered “stealth religion” by you folks who are trying to get it into schools? Going with the idea that it’s just another scientific approach? All while saying things like “the Designer created?” LOL
Maybe you should consider science instead of just parroting things. You are too old to be just a parrot. Try to engage your brain.
 
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notFromhere

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What's really cool about the Creator is that lack of need for belief in Him. He'd love it if you did believe and taught others through moral actions, but neither is necessary for Him to still provide the world what He does. In fact, He leaves just enough room for doubt for those who are looking to do so.

Rarely is anyone convinced logically that there is or isn't a designer and creator. It takes a person who values life and truth over many other things like money, physical pleasure, prestige, and/or power. There really aren't that many people that would set those things aside if it was required for faith. In many cases a person "walks away" from religion or a loosely formed belief in God because of a circumstance or a perceived slight.

I know someone whose uncle went to church, sung in the choir, and spent a lot of time and money there outside of services, but wasn't a believer. He "walked away" when something major happened to or within his family. In spite of all of the blessings he experienced his entire life, one event made him a virtual atheist (yet one who was angry presumably and later admittedly at God). It was only at the end of his life that he looked back and realized all the things that God had done for him and that these things in total were not all just coincidences. He was a different man by all accounts, even though it was for a very short time.

The fact is that he could see all along that God existed, but like many didn't want to, and took the first opportunity to turn aside from it publicly. It didn't hurt him that it was also a popular thing to do at the time. Yet he realized more and more as he saw the way the world was changing for the worse without God that he was wrong.

It's been very well stated in this thread that there is ZERO PROOF of abiogenesis. There is likewise ZERO PROOF of natural evolution of species one from another, as it has not been directly observed by anyone. There are theories and premises. There are observations. Some are objective but some are not. Objectivity requires more than one observer to verify both our observations and our conclusions, but mere number of observers doesn't guarantee objectivity.

Creation is no less scientific as a theory than abiogenesis. No less a theory in merit than evolution. Likewise the reverse is true. No one has witnessed something created from nothing, just as no one has witnessed life appearing from nothing. No one has witnessed a species evolving from another species, as well. Thousands of years of recorded history and no record of any of these things being directly observed by humans.

The scientific mind understands both theory and probability, chance and data. It doesn't exclude data, probability, nor observations, but considers all.

This is why there is a growing understanding of the infinitesimal times the infinitesimal times the infinitesmal (approaching infinity) likelihood of all that we see existing having come into original existence at the same time.

All of the many systems in the human body alone are so interdependent and accountable to each other that the likelihood of them having evolved and survived is infinitesimally small. The same can be said for any other animal, plant, or system of such. This entire planet is dependent on the rest of the planet and the solar system. Remove the water. Remove the sky. Remove the wind or tides. The trees. The animals. Slightly change the orbit relative to where it is now. Change the orbit of the moon. Place the solar system closer to another. Change the orbits and periods of the other planets. Darken the sun just a bit. Make the planet spin faster or slower. Remove an element or two. Vastly different outcomes and the very likely the collapse of the entire system.

The only other somewhat rational theory besides design/creation is that of evolution (which is also dependent on abiogenesis). Yet neither has been directly observed and recorded. There are only perceived, superficial similarities and stations between species.
 

notFromhere

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In fact, all we know about species points us away from evolution.

The idea that a giraffe as a species caused itself to develop a long neck over a great expanse of time so it could eat leaves on tall trees is not logical given each animal has a stomach and system that has specific foods it cannot eat and those that are ideal for it. Our

Can grass eating animals suddenly switch to a diet of just leaves? (This is rhetorical and tongue in cheek, in case anyone is confused.) Is every animal even within the same species the same with the same desires as its parents? Are all plants good for fodder? Are predators able to survive on a plant based diet? Can bird species that fly simply decide to grow gills and live under water? How would transitionary steps in that evolution survive, procreate, and protect their progeny, much less transfer the theorized "desire" or "need" to do so?

It takes greater "belief" and imagination to embrace the ideas of evolution and abiogenesis than to embrace creation, design, and/or their accompanying specificity. Everything we see follows what came before it without evolution nor spontaneous generstion of life. Everything we see is part of a system that couldn't develop or exist without external help.

Choosing to ignore that doesn't make the resulting theory valid. It in fact makes it illogical because it goes against science/observation.

Also, contrary to popular socialistic reasoning, the existence of one theory doesn't harm the existence of another, nor does teaching both as theories. The teaching of evolution as a THEORY should build the faith of those who understand creation. Teaching creation as a THEORY should only build the understanding of those who adhere to evolution, if evolution is a valid theoretical premise whatsoever.

In the end, people are going to choose what they want to choose, and will or will not let circumstances or relationships dictate what they profess.
 
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KenTucker

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Belief in design is no more religion than belief in abiogenesis. You have duped yourself and clearly do not follow methods of science or you would not dismiss design without a scientific explanation. You are not as clever as you think.


Maybe you should consider science instead of just parroting things. You are too old to be just a parrot. Try to engage your brain.
Define it any way you like but it will never be anything more than pseudoscience. My scientific explanation is what I previously stated, that ID is stealth religion. Its single premise is that life is so complex that it could only have come to be via an intelligent designer. There is nothing else to it. ID is a synonym for god, plain and simple.
 

KenTucker

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In fact, all we know about species points us away from evolution.

The idea that a giraffe as a species caused itself to develop a long neck over a great expanse of time so it could eat leaves on tall trees is not logical given each animal has a stomach and system that has specific foods it cannot eat and those that are ideal for it. Our

Can grass eating animals suddenly switch to a diet of just leaves? Is every animal even within the same species the same with the same desires as its parents? Are all plants good for fodder? Are predators able to survive on a plant based diet? Can bird species that fly simply decide to grow gills and live under water? How would transitionary steps in that evolution survive, procreate, and protect their progeny, much less transfer the theorized "desire" or "need" to do so?

It takes greater "belief" and imagination to embrace the ideas of evolution and abiogenesis than to embrace creation, design, and/or their accompanying specificity. Everything we see follows what came before it without evolution nor spontaneous generstion of life. Everything we see is part of a system that couldn't develop or exist without external help.

Choosing to ignore that doesn't make the resulting theory valid. It in fact makes it illogical because it goes against science/observation.

Also, contrary to popular socialistic reasoning, the existence of one theory doesn't harm the existence of another, nor does teaching both as theories. The teaching of evolution as a THEORY should build the faith of those who understand creation. Teaching creation as a THEORY should only build the understanding of those who adhere to evolution, if evolution is a valid theoretical premise whatsoever.

In the end, people are going to choose what they want to choose, and will or will not let circumstances or relationships dictate what they profess.
Wow, that’s a lot of words.
 

Beatle Bum

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Define it any way you like but it will never be anything more than pseudoscience. My scientific explanation is what I previously stated, that ID is stealth religion. Its single premise is that life is so complex that it could only have come to be via an intelligent designer. There is nothing else to it. ID is a synonym for god, plain and simple.
Dodge. The issue is your reliance upon abiogenesis, which is not science. Again, there is a stronger scientific foundation for design than for abiogenesis (math is science, take a look), yet, because of your anti religion bias, you reject one and act as if the other is fact. All the while acting like others don’t understand. You have a religion. You just won’t admit it.
 
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UKbrassowTipIn93

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In fact, all we know about species points us away from evolution.

The idea that a giraffe as a species caused itself to develop a long neck over a great expanse of time so it could eat leaves on tall trees is not logical given each animal has a stomach and system that has specific foods it cannot eat and those that are ideal for it. Our

Can grass eating animals suddenly switch to a diet of just leaves? Is every animal even within the same species the same with the same desires as its parents? Are all plants good for fodder? Are predators able to survive on a plant based diet? Can bird species that fly simply decide to grow gills and live under water? How would transitionary steps in that evolution survive, procreate, and protect their progeny, much less transfer the theorized "desire" or "need" to do so?

It takes greater "belief" and imagination to embrace the ideas of evolution and abiogenesis than to embrace creation, design, and/or their accompanying specificity. Everything we see follows what came before it without evolution nor spontaneous generstion of life. Everything we see is part of a system that couldn't develop or exist without external help.

Choosing to ignore that doesn't make the resulting theory valid. It in fact makes it illogical because it goes against science/observation.

Also, contrary to popular socialistic reasoning, the existence of one theory doesn't harm the existence of another, nor does teaching both as theories. The teaching of evolution as a THEORY should build the faith of those who understand creation. Teaching creation as a THEORY should only build the understanding of those who adhere to evolution, if evolution is a valid theoretical premise whatsoever.

In the end, people are going to choose what they want to choose, and will or will not let circumstances or relationships dictate what they profess.
Thats your problem, it doesn't "suddenly" happen. Today's version of giraffe wasn't one day birthed from.a short neck giraffe. Think of it more as a tree branch with another branch that grows from it...it may end there bc it doesn't survive...but then on down the branch shoots another branch which then has another thar comes off of it, and so on. The original branch is full of these, some end, some keep branching off over millions of years depending on their environment.

Domesticated dogs should be the easiest here to show this, they came from a wolf...BUT NOT TODAYS WOLF. They both have a common extinct ancestor of wolf. A branch split off, for dogs, when they encountered us. Over time their ears flopped, they started being able to tolerate starch rich diets. Etc.

Animals don't turn into completely different species. Afterall, house cats came from an ancestor of lions and we still have lions...not to mention our DNA is closer to chimps than theirs. That doesn't mean a monkey turned into a human "all of a sudden" it means all the way down the endlessly splitting branch we have a common ancestor.

Out of all the species that have ever existed over the existence of time, 99% of them are already extinct. Thats how many damn animals there are.

There have been several species of human, at one time on earth WE KNOW several of them existed at once and encountered each other. We have atleast 2 of thems DNA in us....meaning we bred them out.
 

What Would Jesus Do?

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It doesn ;t matter how many habitable planets there are: you can project nothing about the chances of life being there. Nothing. I know hat. Cox knows that. Tyson knows that.
I'm new to this thread so let me apologize for not having read all 98 pages. That out of the way, I don't understand your point.

It seems obvious to me that we can offer probabilities about chances of life elsewhere. Those probabilities may be squishy for now, but they wouldn't be zero.

What am I missing.
 
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What Would Jesus Do?

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ID is a scientific theory. It has more evidence to support it than does abiogenesis. So, forget “religion” and let’s talk about whether the Designer created life on other planets in addition to earth.
You can call ID a "theory" if you want to, although I'm not entirely sure it qualifies. But in what way is it a "scientific theory"?
 

Beatle Bum

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You can call ID a "theory" if you want to, although I'm not entirely sure it qualifies. But in what way is it a "scientific theory"?
Evolution, abiogenesis, ID - all scientific theories.

ID
(1) is based on an accepted scientific method
(2) is gleaned from science (genetics, mathematics, astronomy, biology, physics)

There is nothing about ID that is less scientific than macro evolutionary theory or chemical evolutionary theory (abiogenesis).
 

notFromhere

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Thats your problem, it doesn't "suddenly" happen.

It's not "my" problem.

Today's version of giraffe wasn't one day birthed from.a short neck giraffe. Think of it more as a tree branch with another branch that grows from it...it may end there bc it doesn't survive...but then on down the branch shoots another branch which then has another thar comes off of it, and so on. The original branch is full of these, some end, some keep branching off over millions of years depending on their environment.

Doesnt address anything about the "scientific" theory that they grew long necks out of necessity or desire. What i asked specifically, after the rhetorical question about "suddenly," is how would this desire be passed down?

it really belies all we know about animals. They eat whats available to them and what doesnt make them sick. They don't just desire to eat something, and then their body changes to suit that desire. Not even over thousands (or millions) of years. It doesn't make any sense and no one has any proof it happened.

Can genetic variation explain it? Yes. Taller giraffes have more food available to them, so they might be more likely to survive. That has nothing to do with the theory of desire as a "motivational" force for adaptation/mutation in an animal species.

Domesticated dogs should be the easiest here to show this, they came from a wolf...BUT NOT TODAYS WOLF. They both have a common extinct ancestor of wolf. A branch split off, for dogs, when they encountered us. Over time their ears flopped, they started being able to tolerate starch rich diets. Etc.

Breeding is different than evolution. It is a form of change, but it is genetic variation rather than evolution. Combining different genetic variations of the same type of animal through breeding is hybridization.

Animals mate with other animals. The resulting genetic variation may contribute to proliferation, survival or extinction based on related environmental factors. It's not to be confused with animals somehow making decisions to evolve. If someone doesn't understand that, there's not much of a discussion to be had with them. It's cute to humanize them, and it sells documentaries and movies, but that doesn't make them choose to grow a longer neck.

Animals don't turn into completely different species.

Exactly. Not over a 100 nor over a million years.

Afterall, house cats came from an ancestor of lions

or smaller cats like bobcats and others.

and we still have lions...not to mention our DNA is closer to chimps than theirs. That doesn't mean a monkey turned into a human "all of a sudden" it means all the way down the endlessly splitting branch we have a common ancestor.

In theory it could mean that. But it is only in theory. Until you have all of the paternal links through the chain, you have theory. Once you have all of the ancestors in genetic succession, then you have proof. Pesky facts I know.

Out of all the species that have ever existed over the existence of time, 99% of them are already extinct. Thats how many damn animals there are.

Ok. That's likely. But we determine dividing lines between species when some of the differences could just be genetic variation and isolation over time. If you consider a mule a different species, rather than a hybrid of genetic variation due to interbreeding, that fits the theories better.
 

Beatle Bum

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There are a number of scientists who have concluded design is the most reasonable scientific explanation for life. But, Stephen Meyer is probably the best know. Anyone who wants to know more can read his books and/or find him all over YouTube. A video, in fact, was posted above.
 

notFromhere

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You can call ID a "theory" if you want to, although I'm not entirely sure it qualifies. But in what way is it a "scientific theory"?


Science- "...the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and/or the testing of theories against the evidence obtained."

Observing intelligent design all around us and the interdependence of the parts and the wholes in those designs suggests that such a complex system as this planet and ALL of the life within it, as well as the precise placement of it within the solar system and galaxy is evidence of similar design in its regard.
 
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notFromhere

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Do plants need pollinators to procreate?
Do water systems need scavengers, plant eaters and plants to remain as they are?
Do plants need animals to generate C02?
Do animals need plants to generate oxygen?

At what point did organisms develop lungs for respiration?
Where did the genetic coding come from to tell the organism how to produce much less reproduce them?
If they were created by the body without a way for oxygen to reach them, would they be discarded or would the organism die?
Do such, as they would be, genetic "mutations" come into being unopposed by a body or would they be attacked by the immune system, and as they would now kill the host without immune suppression medicines?

Just some interesting questions that are relevant to the complex system/ID or evolution/big, uncaused miracle theories
 

SDC337

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I'm new to this thread so let me apologize for not having read all 98 pages. That out of the way, I don't understand your point.

It seems obvious to me that we can offer probabilities about chances of life elsewhere. Those probabilities may be squishy for now, but they wouldn't be zero.

What am I missing.

It's fundamental probability theory.

You can say life is more likely to exist on Europa, a moon of Jupiter, than Jupiter itself due to their respective environments, but you are in no way determining the probabilities aren't indeed squishy zeros. You have no way of determining you aren't indeed comparing one zero to another: you're just performing educated guesswork... in which case you have no justifiable reason to believe zero is not the most educated guess.

None of this should matter to you imho; should have no bearing whatsoever on you finding God. Science, generally at least, is not the tool to use to find Him.
 
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