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Pope ditching analytics?

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Anon1759768907

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aknaya1

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the way UK played is exactly what the "analytics" would have called for -- for example UK doesnt shoot 3s well -- so "analytics"= dont shoot as many 3s wtf
 
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MarvinHagler89

MarvinHagler89

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lol I mean if he still was going off analytics then he pretty much is admitting he doesn’t want to be here
 
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trueblujr

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He’s at the point that he has to play the guys who are bringing the energy and desire to win. I was glad he benched Garrison. It lit a fuse under him for the IU game. It sent a message to the rest of them too. Put whatever petty differences they have aside and start acting like a team. Everybody talked about Mo and Ortega having a beef, didn’t look like it against IU, there was several shots of them chest bumping, high-fiving and celebrating good plays like teammates should.
 
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trueblujr

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We have some good shooter who just aren’t getting the looks they did last year when the offense was run much better. But there is a big drop off after Noah and Chandler. Williams is supposed to be good, so is Jelavich, Oweh is capable if he gets open looks. But none of them are getting the kind of looks we were getting the shooters last year. Chandler has even dropped way off from his great early start. We do miss having a shooter in the mold of Brea or Grady. You would think high level shooters would want to flock here.
 
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revcort

revcort

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Anon1751335390 said:
I mean, we won the second half by like 20 points. The score is the most basic “analytic.”
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Yes, this is what I was going to say, as well. I'd say the decision was DRIVEN by the analytics. When it's clear your team can't make an open shot from 3, why keep throwing up bricks and air balls? It's time to drive into the lane and go after every single offensive rebound. Otherwise, the analytics only say one thing: L
 
I’m The Village Idiot

I’m The Village Idiot

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The problem people have is they think there’s only one set of analytics or “the stats”. There are multiple analytics and data sets. If you hear a coach bragging about not using analytics in 2025, they are not fit to coach at a major school. It would be tantamount to saying, ah we don’t believe in scouting here.
 
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bigblueinsanity (the real)

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Pope's worship of analytics is an example of failure in the modern business environment, including sports.

Pope let analytics drive every decision. Instead the data should be a tool used in conjunction with other data points.

Further, for any analytics there should be contiguous rigorous review of the key data used as input. Weeks ago, when i heard him say garrison was one of our most efficient players, i knew pur data was waaaaay off.
 
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Tim0808

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trueblujr said:
We have some good shooter who just aren’t getting the looks they did last year when the offense was run much better. But there is a big drop off after Noah and Chandler. Williams is supposed to be good, so is Jelavich, Oweh is capable if he gets open looks. But none of them are getting the kind of looks we were getting the shooters last year. Chandler has even dropped way off from his great early start. We do miss having a shooter in the mold of Brea or Grady. You would think high level shooters would want to flock here.
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This statement sums up all we need to know about our basketball team.
But there is a big drop off after Noah and Chandler.

These guys would struggle to get on the court for any of the top 20 basketball teams.
 
I’m The Village Idiot

I’m The Village Idiot

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bigblueinsanity (the real) said:
Pope's worship of analytics is an example of failure in the modern business environment, including sports.

Pope let analytics drive every decision. Instead the data should be a tool used in conjunction with other data points.

Further, for any analytics there should be contiguous rigorous review of the key data used as input. Weeks ago, when i heard him say garrison was one of our most efficient players, i knew pur data was waaaaay off.
Click to expand...
Was coachspeak. Defending his player. Pope is nowhere near the most reliant on analytics…how do I know that? We regularly have players such as Aberdeen, Oweh and Jasper shooting pull up mid range shots. That’s a statistical NO-NO and you will absolutely not be allowed to shoot those at Alabama or you’re getting benched. Also, Pope runs offenses out of the low post far more than most analytic-driven coaches.
 
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CNJ1966

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I’m The Village Idiot said:
Was coachspeak. Defending his player. Pope is nowhere near the most reliant on analytics…how do I know that? We regularly have players such as Aberdeen, Oweh and Jasper shooting pull up mid range shots. That’s a statistical NO-NO and you will absolutely not be allowed to shoot those at Alabama or you’re getting benched. Also, Pope runs offenses out of the low post far more than most analytic-driven coaches.
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Village Idiot, I like you and not looking to beef with you, but we must not be watching the same game. You say “regularly” when I would say “rarely”. And this is the problem I have with this “modern theory of offense”…not allowing players to shoot 12 footers. Do you remember Lowe making the elbow jumper against Indiana? I would like to see him take that shot vs driving all way and throwing up slop over much taller players. This shot is available several times during a typical game and we turn them down.

Take Noah for example. I’ve seen him turn down several open looks from inside 15 feet and drive to the basket only to miss or get blocked EVERY single time. He’s not suited for that game; maybe other more athletic players that aren’t good shooters are better off doing that, but not Noah. This is the main problem I have with analytics and that includes Oats…they think one-size-fits-all and it doesn’t.

In fact, I’ll go out on a limb and predict that Nate Oats will never win a national championship. Sooner or later, you run into a team that has an elite shot-blocker; and the threes are more difficult to make in Final Four games. You now have no way to score.
 
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I’m The Village Idiot

I’m The Village Idiot

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CNJ1966 said:
Village Idiot, I like you and not looking to beef with you, but we must not be watching the same game. You say “regularly” when I would say “rarely”. And this is the problem I have with this “modern theory of offense”…not allowing players to shoot 12 footers. Do you remember Lowe making the elbow jumper against Indiana? I would like to see him take that shot vs driving all way and throwing up slop over much taller players. This shot is available several times during a typical game and we turn them down.

Take Noah for example. I’ve seen him turn down several open looks from inside 15 feet and drive to the basket only to miss or get blocked EVERY single time. He’s not suited for that game; maybe other more athletic players that aren’t good shooters are better off doing that, but not Noah. This is the main problem I have with analytics and that includes Oats…they think one-size-fits-all and it doesn’t.

In fact, I’ll go out on a limb and predict that Nate Oats will never win a national championship. Sooner or later, you run into a team that has an elite shot-blocker; and the threes are more difficult to make in Final Four games. You now have no way to score.
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I think we have analytics all wrong and that was my point wasn’t whether or not we “should” allow midrange jumpers. Analytics is not a one-size fits all —- people get that wrong. Yes, there are some fundamental principles based on years of data that all point to certain conclusions. However, there isn’t one single pool of data…that’s why a coach like Buzz Williams is an analytically driven coach, but people tend to think of Pope, Oats, Hurley, May, Golden, etc. Data shows multiple aspects about the game —- it is merely a tool, like scouting and game prep are. Stats can have different interpretations and can have different implementations based on various situations. Pope has a flexible view of what people typically refer to as “analytically driven offense” compared to someone like Oats or Hurley. Golden is also someone who has a more flexible view, like Pope. If I show you that a certain style of scoring offense will result in a higher points per possession (PPP), you may try to adjust your personnel on the court and within the flow of offense to maximize that efficiency. However, that’s not the only shoe that analytics allows you to wear. You may find that your PPP do not decrease when allowing certain players (Kevin Durant, DeMar DeRozan, Michael Jordan) to shoot midrange shots. Furthermore, post ups for a player like Joel Embiid or Drew Timme may result in high efficiency. The game has advanced too much over the past 5-8 years to avoid analytics —- as fans, it helps to understand there is not only one answer to how to use them.

I’ll also add: if I heard Pope say he was entirely avoiding analytics, I’d immediately be begging to fire him. That would tell me has absolutely no idea what he is doing as a coach. The teams that are winning titles now are not plodding 80s style teams —- they are modern and analytically driven on both sides of the ball. That would be a fireable offense, no need to wait.
 
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CNJ1966

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I’m The Village Idiot said:
I think we have analytics all wrong and that was my point wasn’t whether or not we “should” allow midrange jumpers. Analytics is not a one-size fits all —- people get that wrong. Yes, there are some fundamental principles based on years of data that all point to certain conclusions. However, there isn’t one single pool of data…that’s why a coach like Buzz Williams is an analytically driven coach, but people tend to think of Pope, Oats, Hurley, May, Golden, etc. Data shows multiple aspects about the game —- it is merely a tool, like scouting and game prep are. Stats can have different interpretations and can have different implementations based on various situations. Pope has a flexible view of what people typically refer to as “analytically driven offense” compared to someone like Oats or Hurley. Golden is also someone who has a more flexible view, like Pope. If I show you that a certain style of scoring offense will result in a higher points per possession (PPP), you may try to adjust your personnel on the court and within the flow of offense to maximize that efficiency. However, that’s not the only shoe that analytics allows you to wear. You may find that your PPP do not decrease when allowing certain players (Kevin Durant, DeMar DeRozan, Michael Jordan) to shoot midrange shots. Furthermore, post ups for a player like Joel Embiid or Drew Timme may result in high efficiency. The game has advanced too much over the past 5-8 years to avoid analytics —- as fans, it helps to understand there is not only one answer to how to use them.

I’ll also add: if I heard Pope say he was entirely avoiding analytics, I’d immediately be begging to fire him. That would tell me has absolutely no idea what he is doing as a coach. The teams that are winning titles now are not plodding 80s style teams —- they are modern and analytically driven on both sides of the ball. That would be a fireable offense, no need to wait.
Click to expand...
I think we agree on a lot. I’m an ex math teacher so I know stats/analytics has its place in designing your system. I just think many coaches (Oats probably the worst) have gone overboard with it. I’ve wanted to call Pope on his show but I don’t even think they take calls anymore, only tweets. What I would ask him is something like “Do you think Trent Noah has a better chance of making a wide open 14 footer, or taking two dribbles toward the basket and forcing a shot over a couple of trees?”
 
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I’m The Village Idiot

I’m The Village Idiot

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CNJ1966 said:
I think we agree on a lot. I’m an ex math teacher so I know stats/analytics has its place in designing your system. I just think many coaches (Oats probably the worst) have gone overboard with it. I’ve wanted to call Pope on his show but I don’t even think they take calls anymore, only tweets. What I would ask him is something like “Do you think Trent Noah has a better chance of making a wide open 14 footer, or taking two dribbles toward the basket and forcing a shot over a couple of trees?”
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I’m going to agree with you that we are probably more aligned than misaligned. If you aren’t efficient shooting the threes, you should resort to your next best options for buckets. I think that’s an adjustment we saw last game, and I expect it to continue until some of our shooters relax.
 
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