Post SS team assessment

[NEcowboy]

I was able to watch most of the southern scuffle on flo and found myself very
fortunate to have the access that I did. For what it's worth I'll give
you my take on our performance, which I thought was very encouraging, and how we're shaping up as a team.

125:
Klimara is back and as good as we can hope. He took Waters to the wire
and had every chance to be in the finals against Garret. So much depends
on seeds at nationals, but I expect Klimara to be in the semis.

133:
Harding is our best bet here. He had a decent tourney, but really
looked out of his element. I don't believe we'll win two matches at
nationals here....if we qualify at all.

141: Heil has so much
upside. I think he's got the attitude and skill to make rd12 at ncaas.
He struggled with the two day format at the scuffle and needs mat time
to really make a run. I think he'll be rd12 or low AA, if he manages an
upset and gets a good draw.

149: Kindig had some close calls at
the scufffle that were not unexpected. He's a frustrating wrestler
that has the potential to beat anyone, but also lives dangerously close
to the edge at times. We'll see how things shake out when the pokes
travel to Columbia on 1/23, but I think he can land in the finals again
at ncaas with the right draw.

157: Collica seemed outsized at
times and mostly just lacking in that intangible "killer instinct." He's
got the skills to compete, but will need to put it all together in a
way we haven't seen yet to be an AA.

165: AD looked great.
Hungry, determined, and skillful. I don't know if there's another
wrestler, save L. Steiber, who has a better chance of winning it in
March. Marstellar's performance was very encouraging. He's starting to get it. With a little patience, he'll be something special.

174: IMO Crutchmer impressed at the scuffle. Took Wilps
to the wire and probably would have won had it not been for a foot
injury. He's our starter and can easily AA this year if he continues to
improve.

184: Boyd is mercurial, but has the skill to AA. The
way he gives up his legs and seems to quit fighting in scramble
positions is frustrating, but when he's on and confident, he roll with
the best of them. Wouldn't surprise me if he AA'd as well.

194: What the hell happened to Schafer? He looked lost and generally non competitive. I don't pretend to know what's going on in the room, but Austin is better than he showed last week. Lots of wrestling to go this year and he needs to take full advantage. As it stands now, I see him going 2-2 at nationals.

285: Marsden was impressive. Never in danger against Coon. Looks strong, in control, and focused. I know there's some competition he hasn't seen yet this year, but I think he can be in the finals in March.

All in all, I was very encouraged by our performance. We've got some young kids struggling with the grind of a long season, but there's some serious talent on this team. I see us putting 3 in the finals, with 3 more AAs. I like us to finish in the top 3 in St. Louis.

 

[april racer]

I pretty much agree with everything. I'm not sold on 174, last year we needed one of these guys to step up along with Boyd at 84 and I never felt like anyone did. I feel the same this year. I loved crutchmers fight and determination, but I feel like rogers has more upside. One of these two needs to separate, rogers needs to wrestle 7 minutes. I remember that rogers pinned everyone but a few his senior year, I wonder if he is still learning to wrestle 7 minutes at this level. On the other hand Crutchmer is a grinder. I Expect to see Harding wrestle every match for the rest of the year, pulling his shirt was a good decision.

 

[Orangebomber]

It takes most wrestlers some time to adjust to the collegiate level regardless of their pedigree. There are a variety of reasons and each wrestler has his own journey. Just looking at unsettled weights.

133 - Harding is the obvious choice and he just need to improve each day. He needs to be in the lineup to do that and pulling the red shirt was the correct decision. John has done this more often in the lighter weights.

141 - Same with Heil, he is adjusting to the new weight and has shown good talent. Get better each day and I think he has a chance to AA. I do agree he seemed to struggle more on day two.

157 - Actually I see the same with Collica as Heil. There aren't any shortcuts to success. The only question with all three is will they have enough time this season to improve.

174 - I think the obvious choice is Rogers. I agree Crutchmer has a great heart but Rogers outscored him due to bonus points. Something we will need at Nationals. If neither can advance we need the bonus. Now Crutchmer is also hurt. How bad no one knows.

184 - It just seems that Boyd doesn't lack for physical tools but mental focus. Can he maintain his focus within the match.

197 - I asked the question during the scuffle, is it mental or medical? Austin has shown the talent previously. Something appears to be wrong. Is this becoming a trend at 197? Do we lack something in coaching the upper weights?

I am probably the least knowledgeable fan on the forum but my two cents. I am looking forward to reports from those who attended.

 

[oberebo]

OB- I have to agree with you on almost every point. Eddie was looking very good and came within a hair of beating Waters who won the tournament. At 133 Gary Wayne will use this year as a valuable learning experience and will be better for it next year. Dean Heil and Lavion Mayes provided the best wrestling of the tournament and Heil almost had his takedown numerous times. He could AA this year.. Josh Kindig proved to me he is a winner and if you have a chance look at his match with Houdashelt for one of the top strength moves of all time. Anthony Collica has everything but size and I look for him to have a very good year next year at 149 and he will be competitive but out-horsed this year. There is no one at 165 even close to Alex. He is an absolute pleasure to watch. If Jordan Rogers ever learns to wrestle a full 7 seconds he could contend for AA this year. Crutchmer was really hobbling when he came out to accept his medal and while he appears scrappier than Rogers he does not have the skill of Jordan Nolan Boyd had a bad second day and while I think he will recover well he needs to be better in his decision making. At 197, go on, nothing to see. I hate to be so dismissive but whatever the problem is it is a mystery. Austin Marsden has the strength and skill to win it all this year. He had a great tournament and has had an outstanding year so faqr.

 

[NEcowboy]

Regarding the Rogers v. Crutchmer decision....I'm certain there are many on here more knowledgeable than I am and I will have no issues with whomever John chooses, but in the end I agree it comes down to who can score more points at nationals.

I believe Crutchmer has a better chance to win matches, but Rogers has a better chance to score bonus in the matches he does win. I think C can earn a better seed which would give him the opportunity to win 1 maybe 2 matches in the championship side of the bracket. If R goes unseeded, he may only get one match against someone else who's unseeded, if any, putting him in the consos earlier and lowering his advancement point potential. I don't think R wins more than 2-3 matches in the consos, but I think R can AA. With tons of assumptions, here's how I see the points breaking down:

C: Championship advancement: 2
Conso advancement: 1.5
Bonus: 1
8th place: 3
Total: 7.5

R: Championship advancement: 0
Conso advancement: 1.5
Bonus: 5
Total: 6

It's close, but I still see the championship advancement points and potential for AA giving Crutchmer the edge. Thoughts?

 

[Orangebomber]

Rogers was seeded higher at the scuffle.

 

[oberebo]

Rogers if he can wrestle in the 3rd period.

 

[CB4OSUWrestling]

It appears to me that the disparity in the current state of OSU wrestling versus Penn States program is very disturbing to an OSU wrestling fan. Penn State is redshirting 5 of their top wrestlers in Megaludis, Retherford, Nickal, Nolf & Nevills and they still beat our full team by 30 points. If those 5 are wrestling they probably win by 40 points and beat us by 50+ points. Our coaching staff needs to figure it out as our recruits are not progressing and improving at nearly the rate that the Penn State kids are progressing and improving or we are simply not recognizing and recruiting the real talent. Either way it is a coaching problem and John needs to figure it out and do it yesterday not next year.
I don`t think Nickal wrestled at the Scuffle but Nolf and Nevills both looked ready to step in and compete at the D1 level and none of our young guys looked competitive other than Marstellar and he was over matched with the only top 10 guy he wrestled. I think it is sad that our wrestling program has not been competitive with Penn State for the past 6+ years and find it difficult to believe there are not a lot of other fans out there that feel the same as I do about the current state of our wrestling program.
John needs to bring in a coach with a fresh approach and not continue with the same old same old in training and technique and he needs to do it quickly before we sink to a level that we can not recover from in wrestling for a championship. We have a good recruiting class coming in but that has been the case for most of the past 4 or 5 years and we have not seen the competitive level move up the bar like it should at OSU.

 

[cachap5327]

Here's my two cents on the Scuffle results.

125 - Eddie seems to be on a mission this year. He did give me a scare in his quarterfinal match where he escaped with just a few seconds left to win by one point. However, he was able to get the point when he needed it. He wrestled Waters very well and could easily have been in the finals. His biggest liability seems to be his lack of height and length.

133 - This was the proper time to pull Harding's redshirt. Whether he can improve enough to score anything at nationals is a question, but at least now he has a chance to develop.

141 - Heil has lots of potential and looked very good on day 1. Day 2 not so much, but that was true of a number of our guys. We all know that John likes to bring their conditioning along slowly and tries to get them to peak in March.

149 - Kindig is still Kindig. He seems to struggle at times when he should win easily. Maybe that is the problem. It seems ike he expects to win easily and doesn't really wrestle and try to build a win. Other times he comes up with something totally amazing like he did against Houdashelt.

157 - Anthony has good skills, but needs more strength. He was a big, but not particularly strong, 141 pounder. Now he is a small, and still not particularly strong, 157 pounder. Hopefully, he will continue to grow into the weight and build strength.

165 - Alex. Nothing more needs to be said.

174 - Rogers needs to take this weight. The scuffle was a great place to do just that, but he failed to distance himself from Crutchmer. In fact, given the way they wrestled and the results, I would be hard pressed to name Jordan as the starter. I do believe Rogers has more upside and can certainly score more bonus points, but Kyle is one gutty kid. He gave Wilps more than he wanted. Who knows how that match might have ended had John not thrown in the towel (absolutely the correct decision). Jordan, like several others was looking very tired on day 2 and had no energy after the first period or so of his matches. This is his third year in the program and I had really hoped this would be his breakout year.

184 - Nolan looked good on day 1, not so much on day 2. He seems to be wrestling more within himself this year and not taking so many crazy chances. His first match on day 2 was perhaps as lifeless as I have ever seen him.

197 - the most disappointing weight by far. No idea what the answer is or even if there is an answer.

285 - Austin is looking good. He seems to be far more aggressive this year and his results show it.

This is definitely a rebuilding year and we have a long way to go, but I expect to see a lot of improvement over the next couple of months.

 

[cachap5327]

While Penn State has the looks of building a dynasty like we once had and Iowa once had, I am not ready to concede that fact just yet. To say that we have not been competitive with them for 5 or 6 years is not quite right. Last year, the team title was not decided until the finals matches. While it may have been a long shot for OSU to win, it was certainly mathematically possible. In 2013, we were, quite literally, one takedown away from winning the title. That is being highly competitive with them.

Will we challenge for the title this year? No, we will not. I fully expect to see Iowa and or Minnesota challenge them, though. And I expect us to be back in the mix next year, provided we can find some answers at a couple of weights that need help.

 

[MiccoMacey]

125: Klimara - All-American
133: Harding - May not qualify at this weight
141: Heil - NCAA qualifier.
149: Kindig - All-American
157: Collica - NCAA qualifier
165: AD - National Champion
174: Crutchmer or Rodgers - NCAA qualifiers
184: Boyd - NCAA qualifier
194: Schafer - NCAA qualifier
285: Marsden - All-American, possible finalist (and no, oberebo, I'm not saying that just to appease his father).

To me, that's 4 All-Americans, 5 qualifiers who will probably each win a few matches, and one weight that may not even qualify.

Of all the ones that could exceed these expectations, I'd say Heil or Boyd has the best chance.

If I had to pick one to not meet this prediction, I'd say it would be Kindig.

OSU is a top six team, but not much more.

 

[osu2082]

Some good points brought up that lead to some tough discussions on the future of the program and jus what our expectations should be. It will be eight years since our last title and its very easy to see a scenario where we pass a decade without winning one.

At some point changes will need to discussed and considered and I can't imagine how tough those will be but OSU wrestling can do better and maybe should be expected to do so as well.

 

[CB4OSUWrestling]

OK so now OSU fans accept 2nd place as a successful season? Well I am glad that I still hold high expectations for our wrestling program unlike many of you so called fans. I will never accept 2nd place and consider that a successful season for our wrestling team and I would be willing to bet that John feels the same way. Something needs to change and I wish I had the answer but I do not but I do know we need some changes to be back in the hunt for number 35.

 

[mike tognetti]

Micco, I don't agree with your possible assessment about Kindig not being AA, he will be top 4 and could be in the Championship match on Saturday night. I do agree with you about your assessment about your dads posting about Austin Marsden and kissing Mr Daddy Marsden ##s. When I mention his name Oberebo knees buckle and start looking over his shoulder. If your around Oberebo yell Jimmy and watch Oberebo drop to the ground like someone threw a hand grenade. LOL

 

[proud2bpokes]

Originally posted by CB4OSUWrestling:

It appears to me that the disparity in the current state of OSU wrestling versus Penn States program is very disturbing to an OSU wrestling fan. Penn State is redshirting 5 of their top wrestlers in Megaludis, Retherford, Nickal, Nolf & Nevills and they still beat our full team by 30 points. If those 5 are wrestling they probably win by 40 points and beat us by 50+ points. Our coaching staff needs to figure it out as our recruits are not progressing and improving at nearly the rate that the Penn State kids are progressing and improving or we are simply not recognizing and recruiting the real talent. Either way it is a coaching problem and John needs to figure it out and do it yesterday not next year.
I don`t think Nickal wrestled at the Scuffle but Nolf and Nevills both looked ready to step in and compete at the D1 level and none of our young guys looked competitive other than Marstellar and he was over matched with the only top 10 guy he wrestled. I think it is sad that our wrestling program has not been competitive with Penn State for the past 6+ years and find it difficult to believe there are not a lot of other fans out there that feel the same as I do about the current state of our wrestling program.
John needs to bring in a coach with a fresh approach and not continue with the same old same old in training and technique and he needs to do it quickly before we sink to a level that we can not recover from in wrestling for a championship. We have a good recruiting class coming in but that has been the case for most of the past 4 or 5 years and we have not seen the competitive level move up the bar like it should at OSU.

Nickal did wrestle at the Scuffle and DNP. Marsteller was over matched against the #2 ranked guy but he also wrestled and beat the #6 ranked wrestler at 165.

Like you, I am disappointed with second or worse. I also agree that number 35 is a long shot this year and will probably be the next couple of years. Finally, I agree (at least partially) with a coaching shake up. A quality upper weight coach would be a great addition if it didn't come with the loss of Guerrero or Esposito.

I don't think development is the real problem right now. We have not been able to keep up with Penn St in recruiting the last 5-6 years. I believe all of the men in the OSU room are talented and deserving of the opportunity. However, it is hard for Penn St to fail and it will be hard for Ohio St to fail with all of the elite talent in their rooms. Both of those programs have 8-10 guys in their room right now that were top 10 recruits pound for pound. Those are the type of guys that the worst of coaching can't screw up. In most case, only crimes, grades, girls and injuries derail those type guys. Always the optimist, I think these last two recruiting classes are in line with what it will take to get them back. Marsteller, Rogers, Bleese, Joe Smith, Piccininni, and Brock have all been ranked in that top 10 P4P range. This next class will be very important. They'll have to pull in a couple of national recruits at the upper weights to continue the trend. We are not far away from number 35.

 

[Orangebomber]

Originally posted by CB4OSUWrestling:

It appears to me that the disparity in the current state of OSU wrestling versus Penn States program is very disturbing to an OSU wrestling fan. Penn State is redshirting 5 of their top wrestlers in Megaludis, Retherford, Nickal, Nolf & Nevills and they still beat our full team by 30 points. If those 5 are wrestling they probably win by 40 points and beat us by 50+ points. Our coaching staff needs to figure it out as our recruits are not progressing and improving at nearly the rate that the Penn State kids are progressing and improving or we are simply not recognizing and recruiting the real talent. Either way it is a coaching problem and John needs to figure it out and do it yesterday not next year.
I don`t think Nickal wrestled at the Scuffle but Nolf and Nevills both looked ready to step in and compete at the D1 level and none of our young guys looked competitive other than Marstellar and he was over matched with the only top 10 guy he wrestled. I think it is sad that our wrestling program has not been competitive with Penn State for the past 6+ years and find it difficult to believe there are not a lot of other fans out there that feel the same as I do about the current state of our wrestling program.
John needs to bring in a coach with a fresh approach and not continue with the same old same old in training and technique and he needs to do it quickly before we sink to a level that we can not recover from in wrestling for a championship. We have a good recruiting class coming in but that has been the case for most of the past 4 or 5 years and we have not seen the competitive level move up the bar like it should at OSU.

Not sure why you want to call out the fans on this board about being happy with second unless you are just trolling. But as someone else pointed out we have been competitive the past two years. Since you don't know that Nickal wrestled let me help you out. He earned 3 points in the 174 division where we had two people place. Nolf did very well and earned 17 points at 157 but Alton earned 17.5. Nevills earned 10 at HWT (we won that weight by the way) but Gingrich earned 22. Retherford is 141 which is the weight that Kade Moss earned 21. Doubt Retherford would have scored more. Megaludis is 125 where Conaway scored 11. So swap your five and the score difference would be 20 points less. I gave Megaludis 21 by the way.

 

[oberebo]

Proud2bpokes. I wrote in a similar vein three years ago and called for a wholesale change in coaching and bringing new blood into the room. At that time I did not criticize any individual coach but it was at a time when many felt that Eric would be leaving for a head coaching job and I mused that maybe John should be thinking about young assistants with fire in their eyes and a shift in wrestling strategy.

I totally understand and feel the frustration of wrestling fans at OK State. We had a remarkable run of success for many of the years I have followed Wrestling (1960-2015) but it is going on ten years that we have failed to change the number in our wrestling board. It is hard to pinpoint the reasons for this without stepping on the toes of both wrestlers and coaches.
We are getting top recruits to come to Stillwater so I do not think that is the problem. Some of these top recruits have not panned out so far and without naming names many of us understand who they were or are. Does the blame for the lack of improvement in college lie with the coaches or the wrestlers? I do not know the answer to that question. John and his staff work tirelessly to improve our skills but would an infusion of new blood and thinking produce a change in the outcome in certain individual cases? Are the coaches too reliant on what has been successful in the past and not introducing new ideas or strategies? This may be part of the problem but in other instances it is the recruit himself who brings in "baggage" and problems that almost ensure that they will not attain what their high recruit ranking should foretell.

We have great coaches starting with John and including Eric and Zack. However, as in any successful business or operation there comes a time to assess strategies and policies and change the things that have not worked and try other means to achieve the best possible end. In other words, has our wrestling room become stale? I do not know if this is true or not and I only want what is best for the program. If that means a change in who and how we recruit, coach and wrestle then maybe we ought to be receptive to this change.

 

[MiccoMacey]

Originally posted by mike tognetti:
Micco, I don't agree with your possible assessment about Kindig not being AA, he will be top 4 and could be in the Championship match on Saturday night. I do agree with you about your assessment about your dads posting about Austin Marsden and kissing Mr Daddy Marsden ##s. When I mention his name Oberebo knees buckle and start looking over his shoulder. If your around Oberebo yell Jimmy and watch Oberebo drop to the ground like someone threw a hand grenade. LOL

Beating Houdashelt was big time. That elevated him in my book. But that's not really been the knock on him. He's always had ability to beat the elite guys (didn't he beat Maple last year?). Can he do it consistently? That's the question.

He's an enigma to me. He's a returning National Runner-up, but his overall record last year belies that accomplishment. He was a finalist because he did what others seeded above him failed to do...win. I give him a lot of credit for doing that.

My question for him this year is how will he fare in the tournament if the other top seeds advance? As the season progresses, and he beats the elite kids at his weight, I reserve the right to update his status as needed. Because hopefully he'll be one of those top seeds.