Primary Issue

[kcg88]

Hawk is gaslighting on the Mag issue. Whether it's the injury or something else he is much worse across the board this year. This version of Mag is not really valuable but last year he WAS a starter on a top-20, easy tournament caliber team.

Hawk's point was not "I expect Mag to get worse" his argument was "the 2022-23 version of Mag has no value" which was what everyone took issue with.

 

[PhillyRU]

I question the coaching over the players. Look no further than Noah. Kid was benched for awhile and that has coming out party against Whisky hitting 5 3s. Hits 2 more against Purdue, but if you look at his minutes over the last 3 games they have been so low. While I know he gets tentative and tends to think before shooting you would think a coach would encourage him to be aggressive.
Don't even get me started on Gavin. He was in for very long stretches today and they BARELY found ways to get him the ball. If he sucks at defense and you want him in for offense, what are you doing to get him good looks. Kids hit his first 3 today and not even a single attempt after that. Clearly we have no offense like @RU72 mentions but EVERYONE has been saying this for years. I just think we have had talent that has masked it the past couple of years with people who can isolate an hit shots.
We need change and I am willing to see Pike through on this as he is a great ambassador foe the program but we continue to sputter along each season needing miracles to help us even reach or be considered for postseason(NCAA only thing that counts). He needs to change his staff or he risks next year and capitalizing on his great class.

This was a players thing as much as a coaching thing imo. Several times Gavin was open and clapping and ball-handlers are just looking off him.

 

[Scarletnut]

This thread is pure comedy.....

You have one legitimate threat on offense off the dribble in JWill and one player who is inconsistent on offense in Cliff.

The other starters are a frosh in JMike, a sophomore in Simpson who are not going to carry Cliff and Mag on offense.

People keep ignoring the obvious.....Mag is not a starter on any credible NCAA roster on any level. He brings LESS offense than Cliff and plays a position that requires scoring and shooting as a forward......and no credible "offensive " assistant coach anywhere would recruit or start a player with Mag's lack of skills on offense.

Team's actually do scout, you know....the amount of shots turned down because the players cannot drive or shoot (Mag), the inability to get anything off the dribble from the wing, cripples any offense....keep in mind, Hyatt isn't going to get by some defenders off the bounce, but he at least tries....and Hyatt is a much better perimeter shooter. What exactly does Mag do well on offense??? I'd love to hear this spin.....

The level of denial is at an all time high.....you cannot run any credible offense if you don't have an ability pass into the low or high post and get points or something in terms of passing to open shooters. If Cliff is at best inconsistent in the post and is not a passer, what offense can you run, with Cliff AND Mag, who is worse offensively than Cliff.

Add in Simpson and Davis and there's no coach on the planet that takes Cliff and Mag as extremely limited offensive players with nothing off the dribble or as a shooter, and makes it work.

Why is this thread pure comedy? Most of what you posted is just a more prolific compilation of what I and other posters have stated. No shooters, Cliff limited offensively, poor team passing. You’re not the only one who can evaluate a team’s performance especially when you insult posters who say the same thing you say in less volume.

 

[biazza38]

If Pike isn’t going to make changes, then what’s the point. Sorry, but we start two guards who cannot shoot.
DS and JD cannot be the 3rd and 4th guards next year. Go look at teams that win. They can shoot the damn basketball.
As for Mag, unfortunately he regressed this year. Hawk wants to take his victory lap, I get it. But again, he was one of the best defensive players in the league and actually shot 50% from the field last year. Thats not bad. When you don’t have guard play, everyone regresses

 

[seansherm]

This thread is pure comedy.....

You have one legitimate threat on offense off the dribble in JWill and one player who is inconsistent on offense in Cliff.

The other starters are a frosh in JMike, a sophomore in Simpson who are not going to carry Cliff and Mag on offense.

People keep ignoring the obvious.....Mag is not a starter on any credible NCAA roster on any level. He brings LESS offense than Cliff and plays a position that requires scoring and shooting as a forward......and no credible "offensive " assistant coach anywhere would recruit or start a player with Mag's lack of skills on offense.

Team's actually do scout, you know....the amount of shots turned down because the players cannot drive or shoot (Mag), the inability to get anything off the dribble from the wing, cripples any offense....keep in mind, Hyatt isn't going to get by some defenders off the bounce, but he at least tries....and Hyatt is a much better perimeter shooter. What exactly does Mag do well on offense??? I'd love to hear this spin.....

The level of denial is at an all time high.....you cannot run any credible offense if you don't have an ability pass into the low or high post and get points or something in terms of passing to open shooters. If Cliff is at best inconsistent in the post and is not a passer, what offense can you run, with Cliff AND Mag, who is worse offensively than Cliff.

Add in Simpson and Davis and there's no coach on the planet that takes Cliff and Mag as extremely limited offensive players with nothing off the dribble or as a shooter, and makes it work.

It's a huge mistake with this roster to have gone to the three guard + Hyatt or Mag lineup. The three guards are all challenged shooters, and you are right, J Will o ly one strong enough physically and w his dribble to get to the rim and finish consistently. Mag, and Hyatt, or now that he's starting to at least show something on the court, Gavin should be starting w J Will and one of the other two guards, then Cliff.

 

[RUSCFORMERLYRULOU]

3) Brett MacConnell

ANd who goes in that scenario? We've had this convo before.

 

[Caliknight]

This. I agree our offensive sets arent great, but even when we take open shots we miss. There were multiple open shots today that weren't even close to going in. It's very easy to point to the coach but it's more of a talent issue which is on Pike.

The amount of open shots, free throws, layups we miss is actually impressive.

Missing shots is definitely a sign the players can't shoot. However, we make getting open looks really challenging. Basketball isn't that hard. The fact we can't do it with even close to any consistency is an indictment of the staff.

Either they players don't listen to them or they aren't teaching. Either way it's a bad sign for the staff. Those are both really bad things for a healthy program.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

ANd who goes in that scenario? We've had this convo before.

Yes, so you should remember the result of that conversation: nobody has to go.

 

[biazza38]

Hawk is gaslighting on the Mag issue. Whether it's the injury or something else he is much worse across the board this year. This version of Mag is not really valuable but last year he WAS a starter on a top-20, easy tournament caliber team.

Hawk's point was not "I expect Mag to get worse" his argument was "the 2022-23 version of Mag has no value" which was what everyone took issue with.

THANK YOU!!!!! Bingo
To try to pile on Mag now and pretend last year’s injury wasn’t a big loss is wild and completely dishonest

 

[RW90]

It's a huge mistake with this roster to have gone to the three guard + Hyatt or Mag lineup. The three guards are all challenged shooters, and you are right, J Will o ly one strong enough physically and w his dribble to get to the rim and finish consistently. Mag, and Hyatt, or now that he's starting to at least show something on the court, Gavin should be starting w J Will and one of the other two guards, then Cliff.

Going small completely killed any momentum. Zero offense gained all while getting crushed on the boards. Not to mention, if Pike wants Cliff to come back next season, he doesn't show it.

 

[PhillyRU]

ANd who goes in that scenario? We've had this convo before.

If none of these Michigan kids come through Marlon may go down as a major misstep imo. Added a time when reimagining the offense was a really pressing need

 

[soundcrib]

Noah hardly played today and Griffiths was on the court for extended but his teammates failed to pass him the ball for open 3 pointers.

It's because we have to be the worst in ball reversals in high level basketball I've ever seen. Reversing the ball is simply not preached. If the ball does reverse (which rarely happens), there's actually a delay at the top before the extra pass negating an open gavin or shooter in the corner.

 

[BigEastPhil]

When is Brandin Knight going to take criticism and be held accountable for the patheticness of this offense ?

It’s utterly atrocious !

We need a coach who legitimately has coached an offense before especially with Ace and Dylan coming next year….

 

[Rhuarc]

Talent deficit due to late transfers. If you keep those 2 and everyone bumps down 2 spots in the rotation, all of a sudden things aren't as bad. We still would be a bad shooting team, but we would have more open looks and movement.

 

[PhillyRU]

Talent deficit due to late transfers. If you keep those 2 and everyone bumps down 2 spots in the rotation, all of a sudden things aren't as bad. We still would be a bad shooting team, but we would have more open looks and movement.

We also wouldn't have Jeremiah though I'd think

 

[Rhuarc]

We also wouldn't have Jeremiah though I'd think

That's true, but I would take Cam or Paul with their experience over Jeremiah any day of the week.

 

[RUIvyKnight20]

Going small completely killed any momentum. Zero offense gained all while getting crushed on the boards. Not to mention, if Pike wants Cliff to come back next season, he doesn't show it.

Going small was what cut the deficit to 10…what game were you watching?

 

[Shelby65]

Yes, it is absolutely a freelance, playground isolation offense but within that scope it’s the guards, including JWill, who are the limiting factor. He did have a nice dish to Oskar today, but he’s the same as the other guards re: 1 on 1 offense. He is more productive than the other guards because he takes it strong while Simpson’s takes are weak mid range shots that he can’t make.

It’s up to the ball handlers to create good opportunities for others but our guards don’t do that. They are only looking for 1 on 1 shots.

 

[scarletrat]

We could run better offensive sets but this is the worst shooting team I’ve ever seen. Very limited offensive players. I’m sure the poor shooting takes the heart out on D at some point.

Re Mag, coming off major injury plus he is needed more on offense this season is a bad combo.

We need better offensive players. And yes we need to run a better offense.

We had RHJ, geo, Jacob, others who could put ball thru hoop—even Paul—and we were a 10 seed and 11 seed in play in game. Our margin is razor thin—lose a few and don’t make up for it leads to where we are right now.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Hawk is gaslighting on the Mag issue. Whether it's the injury or something else he is much worse across the board this year. This version of Mag is not really valuable but last year he WAS a starter on a top-20, easy tournament caliber team.

Hawk's point was not "I expect Mag to get worse" his argument was "the 2022-23 version of Mag has no value" which was what everyone took issue with.

Actually …hawk’s point since day one is that we we’re expecting WAY too much from him coming off the injury he did and when he did…and thsr when you combined THIS with his normal game when was want injured not be very dynamic…then relying on him an intergral part of this year was a dangerous propostion

 

[Caliknight]

When is Brandin Knight going to take criticism and be held accountable for the patheticness of this offense ?

It’s utterly atrocious !

We need a coach who legitimately has coached an offense before especially with Ace and Dylan coming next year….

If he is in charge a change needs to be made. I don't care who he recruited.

Enough is enough.

 

[Caliknight]

We could run better offensive sets but this is the worst shooting team I’ve ever seen. Very limited offensive players. I’m sure the poor shooting takes the heart out on D at some point.

Re Mag, coming off major injury plus he is needed more on offense this season is a bad combo.

We need better offensive players. And yes we need to run a better offense.

We had RHJ, geo, Jacob, others who could put ball thru hoop—even Paul—and we were a 10 seed and 11 seed in play in game. Our margin is razor thin—lose a few and don’t make up for it leads to where we are right now.

The staff makes a lot of money to coach players. The players get paid too. It's all entirely unacceptable to not run a proper offense at this level. Whatever the problem is it never seems to be addressed. Today was what it was. If Pike isn't rethinking his entire approach he doesn't deserve to be in the position he is in. And I am big Pike fan.

 

[fluoxetine]

If all the players are “regressing”, is it really the players regressing…

Cliff hasn't regressed. His numbers are worse on offense because of the lack of playmakers around him. He was never able to create for himself.

 

[fluoxetine]

its so freaking weird that we won the games we shot the 3 ball well ! Ponderous! (/s)

It's almost like they give you the points when the ball goes through the basket.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Don't want Cliff back. Double him still can't pass and unlike Reese who can make a jump shot Cliff can't. needs to go.

To RU72 point. He gets doubled and guys arent in the right spots to get a pass out of it. Twice Cliff got doubled and the entire team is on the weakside.

Yes Cliff needs to be better in anticipating the double, but we need lanes where Cliff and pass to.

 

[Shell21]

I sat courside today and haven't been able to see the last few games. Courtside you notice a lot of things that maybe you don't notice on TV.

1). Today, we actually ran minimal or no offensive sets. All we ran against the zone and man was basically high and middle pick and roll and an occasional horns set.
2) Yes, we have no consisent shooters which clogs the lane and defense, and yes Cliff is a black hole in the post, but if you at least get the defense moving, you will create better shots (yes, we probably still miss a lot of them) and at least make the defense work and expend energy.
3) Cliff gets a lot of credit for blocking shots, but he tries to block too many and leaves his man wide open a lot. This happened countless times with Reese today and when they penetrated, our help the helper man was either late or too weak to stop rease on the dump offs.
4). When I say I see more offense run in high school, I am not joking. I have been coaching for about 17 years and went to the game with a couple guys on our staff. They aren't Rutgers fans and were shocked at how little we run on offense. I see more sophisticated stuff on the high school level every day. Yes, college kids should be able to create more, but the defense and size is obviously much better so you need to run stuff to balance that out. We don't have enough playmakers so it compounds the problem.
5) Sitting courtside you notice how small and weak our guards are compared to a team like Maryland (Simpson, Davis, Griffins and Fernadez specifically). Oskar as well.

Like many of you said, getting Ace and Dylan next year will obviously help create shots, but at the end of the day, they are freshman and aren't as physical as 5th year seniors and can't be expected to dominate and create our whole offense on Day 1. Not being able to run stuff for them and Gavin next year really would be criminal. I can't believe we have a college staff that can't run consistent offense every game.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

You're mostly right except the other players on the roster aren't any better.

I posted in the Simpson thread....Mag trails Simpson in every category on offense....and I'm advocating to have Simpson be the 3rd or 4th guard....but you want to handcuff Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper, with a non-threat from 3, a non threat off the dribble and someone that does not create his own shot??

While Simpson and Davis are underclassmen, they can at least get their own shot on offense....it may not be a great shot, but if Mag doesn't create shots for others, or himself, how does he keep landing in this category as a starter??

Next year has "potential " to be exceptional IF you rework the minutes and players. The BEST case scenario next year is JWill is your FIFTH or worse offensive player on the court. There is literally NO chance to play competitive offense with Cliff AND Mag chewing up 27 to 30 minutes a game. There's no fluid offensive skill with either player.

Next year will also have the entire planet, devising game plans to slow down Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey. If you don't have competent scorers, drivers, playmakers on the floor with them, you're asking for MAJOR difficulty. There's literally no path to ask Ace and Dylan to carry 2 players out of 5 on offense.

 

[RUsojo]

Cliff hasn't regressed. His numbers are worse on offense because of the lack of playmakers around him. He was never able to create for himself.

Cliff has not regressed, that was my point thought it came through! he’s been misused most of his career and as much I like having him on the banks kid really did himself a disservice playing under Pike.

 

[fluoxetine]

He's also developed into an elite defensive presence in a way that may not have elsewhere.

 

[RUsojo]

I sat courside today and haven't been able to see the last few games. Courtside you notice a lot of things that maybe you don't notice on TV.

1). Today, we actually ran minimal or no offensive sets. All we ran against the zone and man was basically high and middle pick and roll and an occasional horns set.
2) Yes, we have no consisent shooters which clogs the lane and defense, and yes Cliff is a black hole in the post, but if you at least get the defense moving, you will create better shots (yes, we probably still miss a lot of them) and at least make the defense work and expend energy.
3) Cliff gets a lot of credit for blocking shots, but he tries to block too many and leaves his man wide open a lot. This happened countless times with Reese today and when they penetrated, our help the helper man was either late or too weak to stop rease on the dump offs.
4). When I say I see more offense run in high school, I am not joking. I have been coaching for about 17 years and went to the game with a couple guys on our staff. They aren't Rutgers fans and were shocked at how little we run on offense. I see more sophisticated stuff on the high school level every day. Yes, college kids should be able to create more, but the defense and size is obviously much better so you need to run stuff to balance that out. We don't have enough playmakers so it compounds the problem.
5) Sitting courtside you notice how small and weak our guards are compared to a team like Maryland (Simpson, Davis, Griffins and Fernadez specifically). Oskar as well.

Like many of you said, getting Ace and Dylan next year will obviously help create shots, but at the end of the day, they are freshman and aren't as physical as 5th year seniors and can't be expected to dominate and create our whole offense on Day 1. Not being able to run stuff for them and Gavin next year really would be criminal. I can't believe we have a college staff that can't run consistent offense every game.

Can and have seen all this watching on tv! But true!

 

[Fat Koko]

Don't even get me started on Gavin. He was in for very long stretches today and they BARELY found ways to get him the ball. If he sucks at defense and you want him in for offense, what are you doing to get him good looks.

Next season could be lonelier for Gavin. Ace and Dylan are not pass-first offensive players. When Gavin is standing alone outside the arc, he will enjoy a great view of the Ace and Dylan show.

 

[Shelby65]

Going small was what cut the deficit to 10…what game were you watching?

Agree the small lineup achieved a short spurt but did then give up too many ORebs, as would be expected. Can’t have it both ways.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

This thread is pure comedy.....

You have one legitimate threat on offense off the dribble in JWill and one player who is inconsistent on offense in Cliff.

The other starters are a frosh in JMike, a sophomore in Simpson who are not going to carry Cliff and Mag on offense.

People keep ignoring the obvious.....Mag is not a starter on any credible NCAA roster on any level. He brings LESS offense than Cliff and plays a position that requires scoring and shooting as a forward......and no credible "offensive " assistant coach anywhere would recruit or start a player with Mag's lack of skills on offense.

Team's actually do scout, you know....the amount of shots turned down because the players cannot drive or shoot (Mag), the inability to get anything off the dribble from the wing, cripples any offense....keep in mind, Hyatt isn't going to get by some defenders off the bounce, but he at least tries....and Hyatt is a much better perimeter shooter. What exactly does Mag do well on offense??? I'd love to hear this spin.....

The level of denial is at an all time high.....you cannot run any credible offense if you don't have an ability pass into the low or high post and get points or something in terms of passing to open shooters. If Cliff is at best inconsistent in the post and is not a passer, what offense can you run, with Cliff AND Mag, who is worse offensively than Cliff.

Add in Simpson and Davis and there's no coach on the planet that takes Cliff and Mag as extremely limited offensive players with nothing off the dribble or as a shooter, and makes it work.

Our guards not being perimeter shooters is 10x the problem over what Mag is on offense. Not debating Mag as an offensive issue though

 

[RUSCFORMERLYRULOU]

Yes, so you should remember the result of that conversation: nobody has to go.

Brett McConnell is not coming to be nothing but a full fledged assistant recruiting and all. And adding Jay young off the court is not a magic elixir

 

[Scarletnut]

I posted in the Simpson thread....Mag trails Simpson in every category on offense....and I'm advocating to have Simpson be the 3rd or 4th guard....but you want to handcuff Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper, with a non-threat from 3, a non threat off the dribble and someone that does not create his own shot??

While Simpson and Davis are underclassmen, they can at least get their own shot on offense....it may not be a great shot, but if Mag doesn't create shots for others, or himself, how does he keep landing in this category as a starter??

Next year has "potential " to be exceptional IF you rework the minutes and players. The BEST case scenario next year is JWill is your FIFTH or worse offensive player on the court. There is literally NO chance to play competitive offense with Cliff AND Mag chewing up 27 to 30 minutes a game. There's no fluid offensive skill with either player.

Next year will also have the entire planet, devising game plans to slow down Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey. If you don't have competent scorers, drivers, playmakers on the floor with them, you're asking for MAJOR difficulty. There's literally no path to ask Ace and Dylan to carry 2 players out of 5 on offense.

Assuming GG is here next season ( wouldn't be surprised if he left), it would be criminal if he doesn't get some open looks to really put some pressure on defenses that concentrate on Ace and Dylan.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I sat courside today and haven't been able to see the last few games. Courtside you notice a lot of things that maybe you don't notice on TV.

1). Today, we actually ran minimal or no offensive sets. All we ran against the zone and man was basically high and middle pick and roll and an occasional horns set.
2) Yes, we have no consisent shooters which clogs the lane and defense, and yes Cliff is a black hole in the post, but if you at least get the defense moving, you will create better shots (yes, we probably still miss a lot of them) and at least make the defense work and expend energy.
3) Cliff gets a lot of credit for blocking shots, but he tries to block too many and leaves his man wide open a lot. This happened countless times with Reese today and when they penetrated, our help the helper man was either late or too weak to stop rease on the dump offs.
4). When I say I see more offense run in high school, I am not joking. I have been coaching for about 17 years and went to the game with a couple guys on our staff. They aren't Rutgers fans and were shocked at how little we run on offense. I see more sophisticated stuff on the high school level every day. Yes, college kids should be able to create more, but the defense and size is obviously much better so you need to run stuff to balance that out. We don't have enough playmakers so it compounds the problem.
5) Sitting courtside you notice how small and weak our guards are compared to a team like Maryland (Simpson, Davis, Griffins and Fernadez specifically). Oskar as well.

Like many of you said, getting Ace and Dylan next year will obviously help create shots, but at the end of the day, they are freshman and aren't as physical as 5th year seniors and can't be expected to dominate and create our whole offense on Day 1. Not being able to run stuff for them and Gavin next year really would be criminal. I can't believe we have a college staff that can't run consistent offense every game.

You can't run an offense unless you have players who can do the following.

Dribble

Pass

Create off the dribble to create angles for others to shoot

Drive and score or drive and draw contact.

Have an ability to generate your own shot, off the dribble for a 2 or 3.

If you have FIVE players who can do that on the floor, then you can create an offense.....what you are watching is based on the lack of offensive skill, talent on the wings and lack of shooting from Mag, Simpson and kinda Davis. I am giving Davis a pass, because he actually has a decent looking shot, but he's capable of driving and scoring.

The one missing piece is Gavin Griffiths, who actually has the ability to do the dribble, pass, create and shooting....he is part of the SOLUTION.....but like any other young player, he's now learning on the job.

Lathan Sommerville is very skilled....Dortch and Dylan Grant are athletic enough and willing drivers off the bounce. It would be asking a lot of those 2 freshman to compliment Ace Bailey, so another legitimate 2-way wing is a must have.

 

[Shelby65]

Cliff hasn't regressed. His numbers are worse on offense because of the lack of playmakers around him. He was never able to create for himself.

Agree. As much as I didn’t like Paul overall, he was a much better interior passer than we have now and did elevate Cliff’s production. Our current guards, possibly with the help exception of Noah, are almost always only hunting to get their own shots off.

 

[kcg88]

I posted in the Simpson thread....Mag trails Simpson in every category on offense....and I'm advocating to have Simpson be the 3rd or 4th guard....but you want to handcuff Ace Bailey and Dylan Harper, with a non-threat from 3, a non threat off the dribble and someone that does not create his own shot??

While Simpson and Davis are underclassmen, they can at least get their own shot on offense....it may not be a great shot, but if Mag doesn't create shots for others, or himself, how does he keep landing in this category as a starter??

Next year has "potential " to be exceptional IF you rework the minutes and players. The BEST case scenario next year is JWill is your FIFTH or worse offensive player on the court. There is literally NO chance to play competitive offense with Cliff AND Mag chewing up 27 to 30 minutes a game. There's no fluid offensive skill with either player.

Next year will also have the entire planet, devising game plans to slow down Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey. If you don't have competent scorers, drivers, playmakers on the floor with them, you're asking for MAJOR difficulty. There's literally no path to ask Ace and Dylan to carry 2 players out of 5 on offense.

If one guy creates shots but misses and another guy cannot create shots they are functionally the same.

Mag actually attempted more shots in fewer minutes today btw.

 

[coldsprings_rivals]

This was a players thing as much as a coaching thing imo. Several times Gavin was open and clapping and ball-handlers are just looking off him.

You would think Larry David was coaching the offense: "Me first, that's the rule."

I saw what you saw. At least 4 times, Gavin was open for kickout with a guard charging one-on-three. The guards put their heads down and kept charging. Putrid.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Assuming GG is here next season ( wouldn't be surprised if he left), it would be criminal if he doesn't get some open looks to really put some pressure on defenses that concentrate on Ace and Dylan.

We cannot reduce Gavin Griffiths production to a catch and shoot player, that is reliant on others to find him shots....Gavin has shooting ability, but his talent level is beyond a stationery shooter...he has to create off the dribble, drive and use his length and height to drive into contact and draw fouls......and make teams pay for just defending him as a shooter.