PSU - Ohio State '26 Match thread

El_Jefe

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Asher as well would love to see him wrestle as well. Im thinking oly shirts will leave at least one year open for a lot of guys to make the line up. Who all is eligible for oly redshirts. Im seeing mm, ll, pj, blaze, barr, mirosolas. Probably forgetting some
Mesenbrink will be gone, unless you mean the Nagao Off-Year Olympic Shirt made famous by Guns.

Kasak, Sealey, and Henckel all are eligibile for winning world medals.
 

CTStall

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Oct 24, 2020
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Our thoughts on issues and topics are all shaped by where we stand. Perspective is the villain, if you will. The ref says the last sec move is a takedown that wins the match. Your reaction is shaped by your rooting interest. The ref is great or he's a bum. Perspective determines. Would the same "guy" want his "dominating high school wrestler" to have been less dominating in order to keep up sporting interest? I think not. And for those wanting a less dominant PSU, that will occur someday, but hopefully that day is not near.

If the sport is being hurt it isn't Penn State doing the hurting. The other programs who have failed to step up to the challenge are the ones failing. At the beginning of this Penn State run (2009-10) Iowa, Cornell, Minnesota, Ohio St and Oklahoma St were dominant programs initially and significantly ahead of Penn State. As Penn St started to win titles they all took turns making legitimate runs at snatching titles from PSU's grasp. PSU has gone from finishing 9th to winning close team races. They have gone from having punt years to effectively reloading annually to so they are now consecutively setting team scoring records.
Ohio State and Oklahoma St seem to be the only programs not willing to go quietly into the night.
When Lehigh decided to endow their wrestling program it took less than a month to raise the money. Lehigh has a very wealthy and generous alumni. There is no reason in the world why Lehigh doesn't challenge for the top of the wrestling world occasionally.

It isn't PSU. Iowa, ISU, Cornell, Princeton, Penn, Michigan, Illinois, Lehigh and others with the resources need to step up, not lay down and whine. I would have included Pitt in my rant, but lying like a whimpering, whiney dog is a picture of Pitt I think fitting.
Just to confirm, it wasn't my thought about Penn State dominance being bad for sport. It was my friend who just likes college wrestling. He goes to Lehigh matches for the convince of it being so close to us .
Speaking of Lehigh, Santoro is starting get some pressure from Alumni. They would of had real good tournament team this year if Crookham didn't get hurt. Maybe top 5.
 
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Random4598375

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Exciting finish for Rocco. But frustrated with him trying to get out from bottom and letting Fishback rack up riding time early in the match. Why the hell didn't he establish hand control and lower his hips and hip out? That is basic wrestling. He was standing up and not even touching his opponents hands. And then just letting Fishback push him to the edge of the mat. Great finish and outcome, but not sure it had to even get to that.
I saw that too with Rocco. I was thinking what the F are you doing?!? He finally looked like he actually wanted to get out in the third.
 
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CTStall

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Yep. Agreed. I hope they move them all to BJC too. I could finally have my own season tickets. But I don’t know how many tickets they need to sell there to make it economically feasible. Remember that Athletics has to pay to rent BJC from the University for use.
I think if they would move to BJC it would be for season ticket revenue. Possibly they could do it intially for 50 percent of matches and a partial BJC season ticket package . Do a BJC Friday and Sunday weekend against 2 average teams. Someone like me would make the 3 plus hour trip and stay Friday and Saturday and would create revenue for hotels and restaurants.
 

CTStall

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How is this any different than when Iowa, Iowa State, and Oklahoma State had their runs of dominance? Was it bad for the sport then? From the pattern repeating itself over and over throughout NCAA wrestling history, it looks like it is inherent to the sport at the NCAA level.

Dominance isn't about the schools. Wrestling is an individual sport posing as a team sport. It is about great coaches that have spans where the best wrestlers in the country want to wrestle for the best coach in the country because they feel that coach can further their wrestling careers better than any other.

For as many eyeballs as this niche sport loses because other schools can't topple the king, the excellence displayed brings its own set of new eyeballs because casual fans of this niche sport want to see the spectacle of Penn State wrestling. No different than when the Yankees, Steelers or Celtics went on their championship runs.
I'm a huge baseball fan but do not think the current baseball situation is good for baseball. The powers to be wanted the Dodgers to succeed. They allowed Ohtani money to be deffered and allow the largest TV local revenue deal not to be part of the equation.
I think outsiders look at the NLWC similar.
Note: I am not in agreement, I noted it was a friend of mine that commented about the dominance not being good for sport
 

Shifty15

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I was thinking the same thing; WTF was he doing with his escape strategy? I was watching on a delay and starting the second period I just figured Fishback was going to ride him out the rest of the match for the win. So, I fast forwarded and caught Rocco taking him down. So, I rewound to watch the rest of the match. Terrible match for him, but he found a way to win.

Was it just me, or did Fishback look HUGE - like he had 20lbs. on Rocco?
Especially with an official that was really reluctant to call stalling. My initial take was he was working to get a stall warning and I said to my wife that it was not the best strategy with this referee.
 

Psalm 1 guy

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Observations from being there last night and other rants.
  • This team is tight in that they really care about each other. I noticed that Mitch was standing and literally biting his nails during Cole's match. Everyone was encouraging their teammates on.
  • On the other hand, this team is loose. When Braeden was back on the floor after his match, he was smiling and engaged with his teammates. This is a testament to the coaching staff and their philosophy that competition is part of the learning process and should be fun.
  • I am tired of hearing about Ohio State's injuries and using backups. Everybody seems to forget that Davis is a backup. Nagao was supposed to be our starter this year. Penn State not only has better starters than other teams, it also has better depth.
  • In the conversation about BJC attendance, let us not forget that the weather was a significant factor in the turnout for Nebraska. It was bitterly cold and a lot of potential fans are not local. (But I made it from Pittsburgh, risking gelled diesel fuel. I think I dislocated my shoulder patting myself on the back.)
  • Unrelated to wrestling, do cross-country skiers get style points for the way they collapse after crossing the finish line?
Regarding your first point, Cael mentioned in his post match presser: "The friendship and the camaraderie I don't think it's ever been anything close to what we have right now."
 

Random4598375

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I'm really looking forward to 141 at NCAAs with Mendez, Vega, Stanich, Hardy, and Echemendia. That's a monster weight that probably isn't getting its due because of Mendez being a 2x defending champ.
It’s also not getting its due on here because Scooter’s not in that conversation.
 
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Random4598375

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I was thinking the same thing; WTF was he doing with his escape strategy? I was watching on a delay and starting the second period I just figured Fishback was going to ride him out the rest of the match for the win. So, I fast forwarded and caught Rocco taking him down. So, I rewound to watch the rest of the match. Terrible match for him, but he found a way to win.

Was it just me, or did Fishback look HUGE - like he had 20lbs. on Rocco?
Gabe looked like a midget wrestling Fishback.
 

Psalm 1 guy

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133 - Some may disagree with this, but I thought Davino controlled the action and was the aggressor for most of this match. He clearly learned from previous matches how dangerous it is to shoot on Blaze and picked his spots much better than before. Why Davino tried to throw in legs during ride outs is beyond me, as all he had to do was give up the escape and run, and he'd still be undefeated.
Regarding Davino throwing in a leg, I originally had the same thoughts as you. When I re-watched the sequence I realized Marcus was up to his feet in two seconds. Davino had a split second to decide if he could fend off the escape for another six to seven seconds. Also, the TV angle doesn't show if Davino had solid hand control or not at that point [EDIT: In taking a closer look, Davino did NOT have hand control. His left hand was on the inside of Marcus' left thigh with Marcus controlling that hand. Marcus also had his right over Davino's right hand. If I had to guess, I think Davino felt his best option at that point was to try to stick in a leg since his lack of hand control left him vulnerable to Marcus quickly escaping at that point]. At the three second mark Davino made the decision to throw in a leg and that was all she wrote : ) P.S. I still despise using riding time to determine a winner in rideouts!

Semi-related, but I wonder what the longest match is since they modified the overtime criteria? As the rules now stand, if no one has riding time advantage after the first set of rideouts then one minute is wrestled on the feet followed by another set of rideouts. If no one has a riding time advantage again then the cycle repeats itself until one wrestler scores on their feet or has a riding time advantage after rideouts. Here are the NCAA rules on Overtime:

SECTION 15. OVERTIME Art. 1. Timing and Scoring. The sudden-victory period and tiebreaker periods shall be regarded as extensions of the regulation match With the exception of riding time, all points, penalties, cautions, warnings, timeouts and injury time accumulated during regulation shall carry over to overtime Riding time accrued during regulation does not carry over into overtime Riding time, however, is recorded during all parts of overtime Art. 2. Illegal Act. If an injury occurs as a result of an illegal act during the sudden victory period of any round of overtime, the match is concluded If an injury occurs as a result of an illegal act during the tiebreaker periods of any round of overtime, recovery time is applicable Art. 3. Flagrant Misconduct. A wrestler earning the first point(s) in the sudden victory period of any round of overtime can lose only by committing a postmatch flagrant misconduct A wrestler who is declared the winner at the end of any round of tiebreakers can lose only by committing an in-match or postmatch flagrant misconduct Art. 4. Double Penalties. In a situation in which both wrestlers are penalized an equal number of points simultaneously during the sudden-victory period in any round of overtime, those points will be added to both scores, the sudden-victory period will be terminated, and the wrestlers will proceed immediately to the tiebreaker periods 30 RULE 3 / CONDUCT OF MEETS AND TOURNAMENTS SECTION 16. EXECUTING THE FIRST ROUND OF OVERTIME Art. 1. First Sudden-Victory Period. In tournament or dual-meet competition when competitors are tied at the end of three regular periods, the first round of overtime shall begin with a sudden-victory period of two minutes with no rest between the regular match and the sudden-victory period The sudden victory period will begin with both wrestlers in the neutral position Exception: Nonbleeding injury timeout If, because of a first nonbleeding injury timeout, a wrestler secures one minute of riding time at the conclusion of the sudden-victory period, that wrestler shall be awarded one point for riding time and be declared the winner Art. 2. Winning the Sudden-Victory Period. The wrestler who scores the first point(s) will be declared the winner If a wrestler in the neutral position is awarded a takedown while also meeting a near fall criterion, wrestling shall continue until a fall or near fall points are awarded, or time expires Any near fall points are added to the winner’s match score Art. 3. No Winner Determined. If no winner is declared at the end of the two minute sudden-victory period, two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled The two 30-second tiebreaker periods will be wrestled in their entirety unless a fall, technical fall, default or disqualification occurs The choice of positions in the tiebreaker period will be handled according to Rule 3 14 3 a or 3 14 3 b Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods. The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled with the riding time kept and all match points scored The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or if the score remains tied, has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner SECTION 17. EXECUTING THE SECOND ROUND OF OVERTIME Art. 1. Second Sudden-Victory Period. If the score remains tied after the 30-second tiebreaker periods in the first round of overtime, a second round begins with a sudden-victory period of one minute If, because of a first nonbleeding injury timeout, a wrestler secures one minute of riding time at the conclusion of the sudden-victory period, that wrestler shall be awarded one point for riding time and be declared the winner Art. 2. No Winner Determined. If the score remains tied after the sudden-victory period, two 30-second tiebreaker periods will be wrestled The choice of top, bottom, neutral or defer will be granted to the wrestler who did not have the choice in the first tiebreaker round Art. 3. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods. The two 30-second tiebreaker periods will be wrestled in their entirety, riding time shall be kept and recorded and all points will be scored The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both 30-second tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner Art. 4. Additional Rounds of Overtime. If the score remains tied after the second and any subsequent round(s) of overtime, and no net riding time advantage exists after the second tiebreaker period, the match will continue to another one-minute sudden-victory period and two 30-second tiebreaker periods The winner is declared using the same methods described in Rules 3 16 2 and 3 16 4
 
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El_Jefe

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I'm a huge baseball fan but do not think the current baseball situation is good for baseball. The powers to be wanted the Dodgers to succeed. They allowed Ohtani money to be deffered and allow the largest TV local revenue deal not to be part of the equation.
I think outsiders look at the NLWC similar.
Note: I am not in agreement, I noted it was a friend of mine that commented about the dominance not being good for sport
MLB "allowed" Ohtani to sign a Bobby Bonilla contract? As if they had any right legally or in the union contract to stop it.

The Dodgers weren't the only big-market team pursuing Ohtani. The other teams weren't smart enough to offer him a major tax break. That's on those teams for not understanding contract strategies from 20 years ago.
 
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Nitlion1986

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Just to confirm, it wasn't my thought about Penn State dominance being bad for sport. It was my friend who just likes college wrestling. He goes to Lehigh matches for the convince of it being so close to us .
Speaking of Lehigh, Santoro is starting get some pressure from Alumni. They would of had real good tournament team this year if Crookham didn't get hurt. Maybe top 5.
I didn’t take your post to be anything other then the deliverer of your friend's message. I did respond to your message in the manner I did hoping the next time you and your friend are discussing the subject you could maybe relay my perspective.
 
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Ernie Ladd

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If discussed, apologies for being redundant. Mitch could have, should have teched Paddy IF he resorted to Mitch of last year with a bunch of TD’s and releases. And if Mitch thought that additional point would have made a difference, we would have seen that. He really is committed to honing his mat skills.
 

JA1339

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Feb 5, 2016
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6,850 x $25 = $171,250 Rec Hall Attendance is approx
8,000 x $55 = $440,000 BJC OU attendance is approx
13,000 x $55 = $715,000 BJC Neb attendance is approx

Oklahoma was not a good opponent and it started at 6. I would guess BJC concessions cover the tickets and concessions of a Rec Hall match. More people, more parking.

Yeah, who knows what they pay to get wrestling in there. Love or hate Kraft, he is the disruptor who would blow up the current situation to accommodate more wrestling.
This is starting to feel like an Accounting or Finance class 🧐
 

98lberEating2Lunches

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If discussed, apologies for being redundant. Mitch could have, should have teched Paddy IF he resorted to Mitch of last year with a bunch of TD’s and releases. And if Mitch thought that additional point would have made a difference, we would have seen that. He really is committed to honing his mat skills.
It appeared to me Mitchell was protecting his stitches, and I believe he was dissuaded by Gallagher's head to pursue the TF via takedowns. So he went for turns. And so he naturally ended with excessive riding time.
 

CTStall

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MLB "allowed" Ohtani to sign a Bobby Bonilla contract? As if they had any right legally or in the union contract to stop it.

The Dodgers weren't the only big-market team pursuing Ohtani. The other teams weren't smart enough to offer him a major tax break. That's on those teams for not understanding contract strategies from 20 years ago.
I never said baseball higher ups are smart. Nothing wrong with what the Dodgers did. It was wrong to allow it. With no certainty to what future payroll guidelines would be they gave the Dodgers a huge advantage on signing star talent with minimal consequences.
The teams of the NFL have thrived as an unit because a few owners such as the Mara's wanted a uniform TV profit share for all owners .
The baseball union has gained way to much power in determining the direction of the league. When Giamanti died early after being named Commissioner it changed the direction of baseball moving forward. He was a big proponent of a hard salary cap. Remember, Bowie Kuhn stopped Charlie Finley, owner of the A's from selling off his star players in the 1970s for the good of baseball.
We will be watching lawn darts next year when the MLB contract comes up.
Enough venting about baseball. Let's talk the mat.
 
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TwoJoints

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Feb 2, 2025
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Regarding the BJC/Rec Hall debate, Cael has said repeatedly in the past that he loves wrestling at Rec Hall because of its intimate setting. Cael also sees the benefits of having the high profile duals at BJC. One factor that might sway Cael toward more BJC matches is that it opens up a lot of seats for those who aren't season ticket holders, which I think is important to Cael.
I raised this very question to Cael at a Bo Nickal watch party following the All-Star Classic a few years ago. I told him I’d been on the season ticket waiting list for years and will likely die there. He gave his signature smile, a polite answer, but made it pretty clear Rec Hall is where the team will be wrestling (with the exception of 1 or 2 matches per year) in the foreseeable future.
 

pawrstlersinpa

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6,850 x $25 = $171,250 Rec Hall Attendance is approx
8,000 x $55 = $440,000 BJC OU attendance is approx
13,000 x $55 = $715,000 BJC Neb attendance is approx

Oklahoma was not a good opponent and it started at 6. I would guess BJC concessions cover the tickets and concessions of a Rec Hall match. More people, more parking.

Yeah, who knows what they pay to get wrestling in there. Love or hate Kraft, he is the disruptor who would blow up the current situation to accommodate more wrestling.
Rec Hall tickets were only $25?
 
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JBott

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There's another side to that coin. Wife and I went to the 1972 NCAA's in Maryland. My wife ran into Wade's mother in the restroom. Wade had sucked down to 150# to wrestle in the tourney and Wade's mother said, if you can believe my wife, never again, he was miserable to live with.

Not saying that Wade was ducking anyone but Stan the man Dziedzic was at 158#. Back in 1969 at the Pa. Federation Open Stan beat Wade 23-5. Dziedzic finished 2nd at Nationals that year to Carl Adans of Iowa State.

Wade did win the OW at 150 with a pin in the finals. His teammate Gary Barton won at 134 with a huge upset over Phil Parker from Iowa State. We were sitting next to Barton's family and after he won his semis he was so excited because he said he can beat Parker's style of wrestling, he did. So a trivia question answer, Gary Barton was Clarion's 1st NCAA champ.

Penn State's Andy Matter won the 167# title that year and no other Penn State wrestler finished 6th or better, back then they only placed 6 All Americans. I was just tickled as hell that I got to see 1 Penn State wrestler win. Did I mention my wife graduated from Clarion?

Every time I watch PJ hitting that assassin I laugh out loud, how beautiful.

i hadn’t appreciated how he set it up: acting like he wants to hit a cradle during the release, encouraging his opponent to arch his back and sit upright to get his head away from the knee. Then, wham!
It’s a beautiful transition! Chain wrestling at the highest level.
 

JBott

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One thing I look at after a match is; how did it affect our guys' seed? With 6 guys at #1 they would most likely have to lose to lose their seed. The #1 seed gets a bye at B1Gs, no chance to get dinged up and a straight path to the quarterfinals.

Having the better seed doesn't always work out path-wise. For example, instead of my looking at Rocco's match as shaky, I look at it with the notion that his staying #1 should mean that Angelo and McEnelly will meet in the semis. Luke solidified himself at #1. Marcus improved his seed, Cole improved his seed. Not sure that scooter will be hurt too much, but he's going to have to beat a good guy early anyway.

Also, getting a better seed at Nationals should allow our #1 seeds to explode their bonus points in the early rounds.

As I said, having the better seed doesn't always work out, but most of the time I think it does.
The Bye for the #1 seeds in the Big 10 tournament can hurt sometimes because you miss out on the pin point possibilities. Am I correct?
 

Nitlion1986

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To the extent people care about the Big Ten Tournament team standings.

I'd be OK if no team score were kept. Its only purpose is qualification for nationals.
It's a conference championship. I am pretty sure they keep score for every other conference championship.
Besides, in the last 15 seasons it has allowed Ohio State, Iowa and Michigan to have a taste of success against PSU. It keeps their hopes alive.
 
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Nitlion1986

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Yes but it seldom makes a difference. On the other board I did a pretty in depth analysis of the big tens since 2015 and only in 2022 when Michigan won by 1.5 points could you say definitively the byes probably made a difference.
And even then it took an upset of 4 time NCAA champion Aaron Brooks to allow the missed round of 16 bonus opportunities to be significantly purposeful.
 

watoos

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Regarding Davino throwing in a leg, I originally had the same thoughts as you. When I re-watched the sequence I realized Marcus was up to his feet in two seconds. Davino had a split second to decide if he could fend off the escape for another six to seven seconds. Also, the TV angle doesn't show if Davino had solid hand control or not at that point. At the three second mark Davino made the decision to throw in a leg and that was all she wrote : ) P.S. I still despise using riding time to determine a winner in rideouts!

Semi-related, but I wonder what the longest match is since they modified the overtime criteria? As the rules now stand, if no one has riding time advantage after the first set of rideouts then one minute is wrestled on the feet followed by another set of rideouts. If no one has a riding time advantage again then the cycle repeats itself until one wrestler scores on their feet or has a riding time advantage after rideouts. Here are the NCAA rules on Overtime:

SECTION 15. OVERTIME Art. 1. Timing and Scoring. The sudden-victory period and tiebreaker periods shall be regarded as extensions of the regulation match With the exception of riding time, all points, penalties, cautions, warnings, timeouts and injury time accumulated during regulation shall carry over to overtime Riding time accrued during regulation does not carry over into overtime Riding time, however, is recorded during all parts of overtime Art. 2. Illegal Act. If an injury occurs as a result of an illegal act during the sudden victory period of any round of overtime, the match is concluded If an injury occurs as a result of an illegal act during the tiebreaker periods of any round of overtime, recovery time is applicable Art. 3. Flagrant Misconduct. A wrestler earning the first point(s) in the sudden victory period of any round of overtime can lose only by committing a postmatch flagrant misconduct A wrestler who is declared the winner at the end of any round of tiebreakers can lose only by committing an in-match or postmatch flagrant misconduct Art. 4. Double Penalties. In a situation in which both wrestlers are penalized an equal number of points simultaneously during the sudden-victory period in any round of overtime, those points will be added to both scores, the sudden-victory period will be terminated, and the wrestlers will proceed immediately to the tiebreaker periods 30 RULE 3 / CONDUCT OF MEETS AND TOURNAMENTS SECTION 16. EXECUTING THE FIRST ROUND OF OVERTIME Art. 1. First Sudden-Victory Period. In tournament or dual-meet competition when competitors are tied at the end of three regular periods, the first round of overtime shall begin with a sudden-victory period of two minutes with no rest between the regular match and the sudden-victory period The sudden victory period will begin with both wrestlers in the neutral position Exception: Nonbleeding injury timeout If, because of a first nonbleeding injury timeout, a wrestler secures one minute of riding time at the conclusion of the sudden-victory period, that wrestler shall be awarded one point for riding time and be declared the winner Art. 2. Winning the Sudden-Victory Period. The wrestler who scores the first point(s) will be declared the winner If a wrestler in the neutral position is awarded a takedown while also meeting a near fall criterion, wrestling shall continue until a fall or near fall points are awarded, or time expires Any near fall points are added to the winner’s match score Art. 3. No Winner Determined. If no winner is declared at the end of the two minute sudden-victory period, two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled The two 30-second tiebreaker periods will be wrestled in their entirety unless a fall, technical fall, default or disqualification occurs The choice of positions in the tiebreaker period will be handled according to Rule 3 14 3 a or 3 14 3 b Art. 4. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods. The two 30-second tiebreaker periods shall be wrestled with the riding time kept and all match points scored The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or if the score remains tied, has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner SECTION 17. EXECUTING THE SECOND ROUND OF OVERTIME Art. 1. Second Sudden-Victory Period. If the score remains tied after the 30-second tiebreaker periods in the first round of overtime, a second round begins with a sudden-victory period of one minute If, because of a first nonbleeding injury timeout, a wrestler secures one minute of riding time at the conclusion of the sudden-victory period, that wrestler shall be awarded one point for riding time and be declared the winner Art. 2. No Winner Determined. If the score remains tied after the sudden-victory period, two 30-second tiebreaker periods will be wrestled The choice of top, bottom, neutral or defer will be granted to the wrestler who did not have the choice in the first tiebreaker round Art. 3. Winning the Tiebreaker Periods. The two 30-second tiebreaker periods will be wrestled in their entirety, riding time shall be kept and recorded and all points will be scored The competitor with the greater number of points at the conclusion of both 30-second tiebreaker periods, or who is awarded a fall, technical fall, default, disqualification or has a net riding time advantage of at least one second, is declared the winner Art. 4. Additional Rounds of Overtime. If the score remains tied after the second and any subsequent round(s) of overtime, and no net riding time advantage exists after the second tiebreaker period, the match will continue to another one-minute sudden-victory period and two 30-second tiebreaker periods The winner is declared using the same methods described in Rules 3 16 2 and 3 1

The Bye for the #1 seeds in the Big 10 tournament can hurt sometimes because you miss out on the pin point possibilities. Am I correct?
That's why winning B1Gs isn't that important to me. At nationals our #1 seeds will have to wait to wrestle the winner of the #32 - #33 seeds.