Puzzled by CoM

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

I've been amaturely critiquing hs football for about ten years now and watching it with heavy interest for almost 20. After watching CoM last night, I can't say I've ever been more puzzled by a team.

From a video stream, everything about CoM looked like a top 20 team. CoM has nice size all over the field; they have multiple capable backs (i would say above average); a qb that can run their system with discipline; and a star player in TE turner - who happens to play a key position for their team.

How in the world are they 0-3 and even more, how have they been outscored 111-28?

I can't question the play calling, there was nothing about it i did not like. in some ways, this team reminded me of some JCA teams of a few years back that did a lot right, but just gave up one huge play every drive...it was so frustrating. unlike com, JCA had the luxury of having a D1 RB to keep them in a shootout...

With those JCA teams, fans wanted the best players to start playing both ways. Is that a solution for CoM?

Can Turner and those backs help the defense out?

CoM's sophs a pretty solid, and i expect they right the ship next season. But how does CoM improve this year? the schedule gives them an opportunity to lock up some wins and they avoid Naz this year. It's just curious that this team has lost the way it has.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

JC - I for one am also in the corner of the puzzled football observer. I figured with a 1500 yard returning rusher and two stud D-1 kids coming back in Turner and Foster, that this team would at least be competitive. I also look at their schedule too and I am not sure there is a team in the state that has started with a more brutal stretch.

Waukesha West is a top 5 Wisconsin team and unbeaten
Phillips is well, Phillips and could be 3-0 if they beat Simeon tonight
JCA is strong again and is also 3-0.

If Phillips wins, their three foes so far this season would be a combined 10-0, don't think anyone else around has played that same kind of stretch.

With that being said, you cant win games if you cant stop people. Their defense has been an issue for a long time and its clearly not getting any better.

You can score all you want, but if the other team scores 1 more than you it wont matter,

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I've been amaturely critiquing hs football for about ten years now and watching it with heavy interest for almost 20. After watching CoM last night, I can't say I've ever been more puzzled by a team.

From a video stream, everything about CoM looked like a top 20 team. CoM has nice size all over the field; they have multiple capable backs (i would say above average); a qb that can run their system with discipline; and a star player in TE turner - who happens to play a key position for their team.

How in the world are they 0-3 and even more, how have they been outscored 111-28?

I can't question the play calling, there was nothing about it i did not like. in some ways, this team reminded me of some JCA teams of a few years back that did a lot right, but just gave up one huge play every drive...it was so frustrating. unlike com, JCA had the luxury of having a D1 RB to keep them in a shootout...

With those JCA teams, fans wanted the best players to start playing both ways. Is that a solution for CoM?

Can Turner and those backs help the defense out?

CoM's sophs a pretty solid, and i expect they right the ship next season. But how does CoM improve this year? the schedule gives them an opportunity to lock up some wins and they avoid Naz this year. It's just curious that this team has lost the way it has.

Puzzled is a great word in this case, but let me explore the word and situation from a different angle. That angle is more about the program's general downturn in recent years, and not so much with this year's edition of the program.

Often, when a program's fortunes take a turn for the worse, you can point to changes in certain areas as being reasons for the downturn. What, if anything, has changed at Carmel? Enrollment is steady. Demographics are the same. Head coach has been there forever, but I will say that coaches losing their mojo is not unheard-of. Schedule is roughly the same and very competitive.

That leaves talent, which you covered and said was pretty good.

So, what is it then?

It's puzzling, that's what it is.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

interesting note on the schedule. At least that is behind them. Hoping they can right the ship.

 

[sundevil1988]

Sorry if I'm repeating myself but the type of kid has changed at Carmel. Yes their enrollment is steady but their not drawing the football players like they use to. The teams that were successful at CoM went there to play football not so much anymore. As mentioned before Libertyville QB Riley Lees has 3 brothers play at CoM. Their are others but he is the 1 name that could be a difference maker for CoM just like he is doing at the Ville.

This year turnovers are killing them and the defensive scheme questionabl Their 1st 3 opponents were run based and no way can they be successful in stopping the run with a 3 man front? even on a goal one they don't change their front. IMO I believe it's time for some fresh blood be injected into CoM - bring in some more younger asst..coaches to provide some energy like Andrew Nerup CoM QB 09' and Jack Baucus TE 09' are both coaching now.

Over the last 4 yrs CoM has probably played the toughest schedule compared to most teams in the state and it all happened just as CoM went downhill. Hopefully things can turn around as they start a new season next week and can get 5 wins.

 

[pjjp]

I'll add my 2 cents. CoM fans can confirm, but I believe they made a change at QB. The QB who played last night, Jeremy Strutzel, is a Jr. I believe they started a Sr. in the first two games. I liked the QB. He was quick and made good reads. As Newt pointed out, FB Jamison is very good. He had a fair amount of success running the ball, which surprised me a bit.

I also think you have to look at strength of schedule, as Newt stated. Also, Waukesha West, was playing their second game against the Corsairs (Carmel's week 1), since WI starts a week earlier than IL. That's a big advantage. Carmel was in that game and threw a pick six deep in their own territory in the 3rd quarter to make it 21-7. Phillips may be lights out defensively. We will see tonight in their matchup against Simeon.

It was an odd game last night. The JC coaches were livid at some of the calls against them. JC had a number of false starts. Carmel was flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct (for calling out the JC cadence, which probably accounted for many of the false starts). It was the chippiest CoM / JC game I've seen.

CoM's schedule gets much easier going forward. We shall see if they can right the ship.

 

[BretEpic]

Phillips was a horrible opponent for Carmel. DL that muddle up the inside, an amazing MIKE, and speed on the outside. They had all the tools to create massive issues for COM, and did.

Agree on WW game as well, as well as losing kids like Lees elsewhere. Those teams back when had everyone that wanted to play FB, and that wasn't Rambler.

Haven't watched the tape of the last game yet, but will have to.

 

[sundevil1988]

Yes QB changed last week against Phillips. Senior QB is a RB but won the job going into the season but had hard making the right read. Junior QB has been playing since freshman year. so knows it better and will need some time to get use to varsity speed and size.

Agree about being chippy. Post game it looked like it got pretty heated between Sharp & Bitto

 

[Oddy]

Tough schedule aside, Carmel is not the same place anymore. As a poster above said, they used to have at least a few kids come to play football, and I don't think that is the case anymore. That can make the difference. IMO this comes from the top, and other priorities have displaced football from what it was 10-15 years ago. I predicted here that they would start 0-3, and then finish 6-0, so we'll see.

 

[sundevil1988]

Not the same place when Father Bob was there.

 

[ignazio]

Before you all head up to Mundelein and bulldoze the school, consider that this team consistently schedules top competition in their non-con games (Phillips, Waukesha West, Fenwick, LWE, GBN, Wayzata - #2 in Minn that year).

I'm sure they'd look hot beating up on Lake Forest Academy and Dunbar, but those coaches like their kids to know where they are early in the season.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

Tough schedule aside, Carmel is not the same place anymore. As a poster above said, they used to have at least a few kids come to play football, and I don't think that is the case anymore. That can make the difference. IMO this comes from the top, and other priorities have displaced football from what it was 10-15 years ago. I predicted here that they would start 0-3, and then finish 6-0, so we'll see.

i hope so oddy. a snap shot of the game last night shows something like a 35-28 JCA victory...obviously that did not happen.

 

[Oddy]

Before you all head up to Mundelein and bulldoze the school, consider that this team consistently schedules top competition in their non-con games (Phillips, Waukesha West, Fenwick, LWE, GBN, Wayzata - #2 in Minn that year).

I'm sure they'd look hot beating up on Lake Forest Academy and Dunbar, but those coaches like their kids to know where they are early in the season.

They used to beat teams like that. Schedules always seem tough when you're not that good.

 

[Cross Bones]

I am always told here that it is the coaching. No puzzles here, only trying to make the narrative still work when the pieces dont.

 

[Secondo1]

They seem a bit desperate and showed it at JCA. Cadence stealing, personal fouls, and it appeared keeping their starters in till the very end even though they were down by 34 going into Q4.

Have the times passed the coaching staff? JCA went through that until they changed things on defense. And this year they are throwing the ball around like crazy! At least "crazy" for JCA. They found out the hard way when they had Ferguson, Jones and Isaac and never won the State.

Interesting the beef between Sharp and Bitto...

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

Puzzled is the perfect word.

It seams like the program has deeper issues though.

I have no connection and have no idea what's going on over there, but could have something to do with that maybe kids in 2015 don't just want to run fullback dives all night long, when there is a school down the street that runs a modern offense, with much better uniforms and is free? Does this have anything to do with it or am I completely off?

 

[Cross Bones]

Guys, I really don't understand this "not getting the kids" narrative when I am assured every year that the kids are the same, its the coaching... or is that only when a school is winning that its the coaching, when its losing its the kids?

 

[Secondo1]

Guys, I really don't understand this "not getting the kids" narrative when I am assured every year that the kids are the same, its the coaching... or is that only when a school is winning that its the coaching, when its losing its the kids?

I think you saw a drop off at Provi due to the Lincoln way growth over the past 10 years with the addition of high end schools of North and West. Kids that might have gone to Provi opted for these new buildings, technology, great facilities, more chance to play, etc. JCA has been fortunate that JWest and Central have been down for years, but it may change a bit with JWest starting to show some improvement.

 

[Cross Bones]

I think you saw a drop off at Provi due to the Lincoln way growth over the past 10 years with the addition of high end schools of North and West. Kids that might have gone to Provi opted for these new buildings, technology, great facilities, more chance to play, etc. JCA has been fortunate that JWest and Central have been down for years, but it may change a bit with JWest starting to show some improvement.

Secondo, I do agree its the kids (generally speaking), sometimes you have football players and sometimes you dont. Or you always do or you never do. You will not find a winning program without the capable bodies. From what I understand JCA numbers are down (although this is true across the football landscape), but as for the football talent it is not, apparently. Providence was also hurt by moving up in class, no Roxana's anymore.

 

[mc140]

Guys, I really don't understand this "not getting the kids" narrative when I am assured every year that the kids are the same, its the coaching... or is that only when a school is winning that its the coaching, when its losing its the kids?

It is always about the kids.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

Secondo, I do agree its the kids (generally speaking), sometimes you have football players and sometimes you dont. Or you always do or you never do. You will not find a winning program without the capable bodies. From what I understand JCA numbers are down (although this is true across the football landscape), but as for the football talent it is not, apparently. Providence was also hurt by moving up in class, no Roxana's anymore.

While jca has talent, depth it has no longer. Jca went from rosters on all levels in the 90 -100 range to rosters on the 50s and 40s. Class size has never been an problem relative to it being an impediment for any other non 8a champion.

Com has 2 d1 players on their roster. Prob less than 5% of schools can say that. I have no idea what the rosters at com look like however.

As far as offensive play calling and style, I didnt see anything I did not like. Bitto has adjusted his option attack to include enough passes imo. I can't explain the lack of scoring other than to point to the schedule.

Defensively it looked like com had athletes on the field, they just gave up too many explosion plays. I would put the rbs in on defensive, at least sometimes.

I agree with one of the posters above who recommended bringing in some of the former talent to help on scheme. It proved immediately effective at jca where it is unbelievable that based on talent, we have not won a title since 07 in 5a, and only because 1. We did not play certain players both ways and 2. We did not modernize our defensive scheme.

 

[Cross Bones]

While jca has talent, depth it has no longer. Jca went from rosters on all levels in the 90 -100 range to rosters on the 50s and 40s. Class size has never been an problem relative to it being an impediment for any other non 8a champion.

Com has 2 d1 players on their roster. Prob less than 5% of schools can say that. I have no idea what the rosters at com look like however.

As far as offensive play calling and style, I didnt see anything I did not like. Bitto has adjusted his option attack to include enough passes imo. I can't explain the lack of scoring other than to point to the schedule.

Defensively it looked like com had athletes on the field, they just gave up too many explosion plays. I would put the rbs in on defensive, at least sometimes.

I agree with one of the posters above who recommended bringing in some of the former talent to help on scheme. It proved immediately effective at jca where it is unbelievable that based on talent, we have not won a title since 07 in 5a, and only because 1. We did not play certain players both ways and 2. We did not modernize our defensive scheme.

Depth compared to who Chiller? Who? You may be overrating everyone's depth. Most schools are in trouble if a starter goes down. Some schools are in trouble with all their starters... regardless of class.

It is always about the kids.

Yes. So I am wondering why people always credit certain coaches when they are simply out talenting everyone. Not D1 bodies, but football talent.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Depth compared to who Chiller? Who? You may be overrating everyone's depth. Most schools are in trouble if a starter goes down. Some schools are in trouble with all their starters... regardless of class.



Yes. So I am wondering why people always credit certain coaches when they are simply out talenting everyone. Not D1 bodies, but football talent.

Which certain coaches? Name names.

 

[Cross Bones]

Which certain coaches? Name names.

name a celebrated coach, here. Him.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

Depth compared to who Chiller? Who? You may be overrating everyone's depth. Most schools are in trouble if a starter goes down. Some schools are in trouble with all their starters... regardless of class.

I was comparing JCA's depth to JCA's depth...

 

[jwarigaku]

Bones,

Depth compared to Bolingbrook, you guys had the numbers to be able to cut your roster to 75. Now the only question seems to be if the right players were cut based off of current results.

Depth compared to who Chiller? Who? You may be overrating everyone's depth. Most schools are in trouble if a starter goes down. Some schools are in trouble with all their starters... regardless of class.



Yes. So I am wondering why people always credit certain coaches when they are simply out talenting everyone. Not D1 bodies, but football talent.

 

[Cross Bones]

I was comparing JCA's depth to JCA's depth...

That's a worthless comparison though. Compare your depth to your playoff competitions depth. Compare your overall talent to you playoff competitions depth.

 

[Cross Bones]

1Z3V891R0301473061

Bones,

Depth compared to Bolingbrook, you guys had the numbers to be able to cut your roster to 75. Now the only question seems to be if the right players were cut based off of current results.

Why don't you enlighten us?

 

[mc140]

Bones,

Depth compared to Bolingbrook, you guys had the numbers to be able to cut your roster to 75. Now the only question seems to be if the right players were cut based off of current results.

This isn't the NFL. Once you get over 30 kids in even the best programs it doesn't matter. There is very little difference between player 45 and player 85 on a roster. Only way a player gets cut that could help is if there are other issues that typically rear their head during a season.

 

[jwarigaku]

Bones and MC140

The Bolingbrook coaches issued a letter this summer that I was copied on that said they were cutting their roster to 75 players, nothing else to enlighten you on. It must be nice in this day and age of declining football participation to have the luxury to cut players.

1Z3V891R0301473061

Why don't you enlighten us?

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

That's a worthless comparison though. Compare your depth to your playoff competitions depth. Compare your overall talent to you playoff competitions depth.

follow this in context of the thread...not the tired debate of whether privates are in the right class. depth is a possible reason for CoM's drop off. Whether depth has changed at CoM, i don't know.

i agree 100% with 140's point above about roster kids 45-80, but here is where depth plays an integral role in hs:

1. does the junior (and sophs) class A) fill holes and B) provide a capable backup.

2. is the team obliged to play kids two ways to stay competitive - not just a strategic choice.

3. is your season over if player X gets hurt.

4. do you have enough guys on your team to run efficient practices? don't over look this.

I don't agree with simply pointing to talent as the reason CoM is down. the talent on the field was much better than a team that was getting run on by JCA second string. I cannot say it's Bitto (and won't). I actually liked the play calling. Maybe it's a lot of things....but depth could be a factor...i just don't have the numbers.

 

[Cross Bones]

follow this in context of the thread...not the tired debate of whether privates are in the right class. depth is a possible reason for CoM's drop off. Whether depth has changed at CoM, i don't know.

i agree 100% with 140's point above about roster kids 45-80, but here is where depth plays an integral role in hs:

1. does the junior (and sophs) class A) fill holes and B) provide a capable backup.

2. is the team obliged to play kids two ways to stay competitive - not just a strategic choice.

3. is your season over if player X gets hurt.

4. do you have enough guys on your team to run efficient practices? don't over look this.

I don't agree with simply pointing to talent as the reason CoM is down. the talent on the field was much better than a team that was getting run on by JCA second string. I cannot say it's Bitto (and won't). I actually liked the play calling. Maybe it's a lot of things....but depth could be a factor...i just don't have the numbers.

I cant just focus on this in the context of the thread only when it is connected to THE age old discussion. Is it inconvenient? Probably. As it relates to this CoM team, I don't know, the CoM guys spoke I believe, and they said its talent. I don't doubt it, but I have not seen them play this year, and I don't know what their typical talent looked like in the past. I do know size and weight isn't everything. And while I believe a coach may be less effective than they once were, but you noted you didnt have a problem with the playcalls.

Maybe they just dont have the horses.

 

[sundevil1988]

Turnovers have killed CoM this year. They had 3 inside the 20 on Friday and against their first two opponents they had problems with turnovers. The last two games the oline has struggled as last week against Phillips,their just freaks and this Friday all those days working out at Rudy's showed up. I have pointed to a drop in talent and will stand by that statement as I have been a part of CoM for awhile and have seen what their best looked 2003 like vs their low points in 2013 when they went 2-7. This years team does have a talented skilled group at RB,TE and their junior QB was thrown right into battle against Phillips last week and again this week and did ok. However if you watched both games you'd see their O line struggled and if that happens the go to midline dive play won't work and that will effect the play calling and the coaches did adjust and took the ball outside more this week. The TE has become a little more part of the offense the last couple of weeks and that will always help the running game if the defense has to start double covering him.

CoM starts a new season this week and we'll see what happens as they run through the ESCC gauntlet

 

[jwarigaku]

Bones,

I guess COM doesn't have the horses to cut like Bolingbrook! Must be nice to have the plethora of talent to be able to cut. Be nice to have that bus at every school.

I cant just focus on this in the context of the thread only when it is connected to THE age old discussion. Is it inconvenient? Probably. As it relates to this CoM team, I don't know, the CoM guys spoke I believe, and they said its talent. I don't doubt it, but I have not seen them play this year, and I don't know what their typical talent looked like in the past. I do know size and weight isn't everything. And while I believe a coach may be less effective than they once were, but you noted you didnt have a problem with the playcalls.

Maybe they just dont have the horses.