Question.....
- Thread starter CTOkie
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Lol, ya if the coaches learn from the Houston game and apply it moving forward, then ULM should be no problem at all.
If the coaches learn ? Seriously?
Come on BR. I suspect the young men with the maxed out testosterone have a whole lot more to learn than those with gray hair. Most teams do their most improvement of the year between game one and game two. That's not because the coaches take stupid pills and have to relearn every year just after Labor Day.
Come on BR. I suspect the young men with the maxed out testosterone have a whole lot more to learn than those with gray hair. Most teams do their most improvement of the year between game one and game two. That's not because the coaches take stupid pills and have to relearn every year just after Labor Day.
So then you think the gameplan Riley called last weekend was a perfect recipe for success and it's just all on the players for the loss??
I thought the execution was poor and that Perine getting hurt changed the game after our number 4 running back showed that he wasn't up to the task.
When the quarterback ''passes'' on open guys and then gets sacked .. when their trick play works perfectly except for a horrible throw .. when you turn the ball over in crucial situations, that isn't about the plan.
If OU slips Saturday, I'll donate to the Clinton campaign. If you only knew how much that would hurt, you would understand just how sure I am of a Sooner win. Boomer!
Baker didn't have a good game, I'll agree with you on that point for sure. I think everyone could see that it wasn't his best.
Then we will just agree to disagree. Samaje got dinged early in the game, but he got back into the game and even carried the ball again after that play he got dinged. So on some level, he was still able to play. Then Riley just dropped running the ball for the bulk of the game, even though Bob Stoops said the Oline was one of the better units that day.
Reminds me of the TTech game a couple of years ago when Heupel refused to run the ball before halftime, when it was obvious to EVERYONE that running the ball was having ridiculous success. Then after halftime, Carey Murdoch reported you could hear from behind closed doors in the locker room during halftime, Bob yelling at Heupel about why aren't we running the ball. Then after that halftime half *** chewing, OU just DOMINATED the 2nd by feeding the rock to Perine.
I have a feeling Riley got a similar earful after the game on Saturday. But go ahead and blame the players Plaino.
Though I do agree with you Plaino about Baker. But I fault the coaches for trotting out a QB that just tries to "glory hound" everything instead of playing with some discipline. I would hope at the very least, that during the game the coaches were in his ear between possessions about how he was trying to make all the plays, instead of getting the ball to others to make plays.
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I think Baker is in the same offense with more experience. But it is a totally different task for him this year. He relied on Shep in 2015. This year, he must rely on what the offensive scheme produces. And a bunch of receivers have to step up.
Baker's learning curve will be higher. It won't be easy for him. I suspect the coaches have been preaching that. It's also possible that it is a receiver trust problem.
When I look at the list of highly recruited guys who haven't done much, and Baxter, a walk on, is essentially OUr number three guy, I'm not sure what to make of that.
B.R. you know I believe that players make plays or they don't. But I think Baker's problem were not about, what did you call it? Glory hounding? I think he tried to do what he did last year. He is going to have to adapt.
No doubt that games can be won or lost depending on if key plays are made or not during a game. But Houston was very close to blowing out OU. You can't just throw it all on "failure to execute". If this had been a 3pt loss, and Dede missing that sure TD pass, then we have a legit conversation on execution being the sole issue in a loss. But Houston was one goal line fumble from going up 40-16 late in the game. That goes beyond just execution being an issue.
But also like another poster said in the last few games, all that is really remembered is wins and losses. And in the end, it's the coaches that are held accountable for wins and losses. It's the nature of the business.
But yes, I do agree that Baker is going to have to adapt. He isn't going to have a banner year if he keeps trying to play the way he did against Houston. And that's up to the coaches to get in his ear and get him heading in the right direction.
Oklabama, Man, you're not kidding. 3 loss in a row would really be bad. It would likely mean 4 in a row with Ohio State upcoming.
You called me a boy. I'm really, really, really offended. I'm a grown man. I shave and every thing. fitty and Medic, are you going to let Oklabama slide on this?
You called me a boy. I'm really, really, really offended. I'm a grown man. I shave and every thing. fitty and Medic, are you going to let Oklabama slide on this?
The kicker failure isn't a coach problem. He false started, otherwise, the FG return doesn't happen. It was a huge swing in the game. Then came fumble. Then came the screw up on the trick play. It put us in a position where we couldn't run it much any more, which many thought was the problem after halftime, No balance. When we were down 16, that was directly connected to missing Perine, and the FG screw up and the fumble and then the trick play failure. Those last three are all execution problems and Brooks playing instead of having Anderson. We couldn't run our whole offense.
And Houston was a very good team, playing their biggest game ever, according to stuff I've read. We weren't very good for a lot of reasons. But it was absolutely mostly about execution. And almost always is.
And Houston was a very good team, playing their biggest game ever, according to stuff I've read. We weren't very good for a lot of reasons. But it was absolutely mostly about execution. And almost always is.
to
Sunburnt, I going back to Alabama to play golf during OU's off week. I'm going to spend a couple of days in Muscle Shoals right near your family's old stomping grounds if I remember correctly. Morgan County.....Am I right? Driving to Birmingham for three days then heading north to the Shoals. Haven't been back to my birth state for six years. Hoping OU wins the next two weeks or it's going to be real bad....... unless the Tide goes down too.
Sunburnt, I going back to Alabama to play golf during OU's off week. I'm going to spend a couple of days in Muscle Shoals right near your family's old stomping grounds if I remember correctly. Morgan County.....Am I right? Driving to Birmingham for three days then heading north to the Shoals. Haven't been back to my birth state for six years. Hoping OU wins the next two weeks or it's going to be real bad....... unless the Tide goes down too.
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What you are talking about is "wholesale" lack of execution. That's a lack of overall team discipline, that absolutely at the foundation is a coaching issue. But the missed FG return happened halfway thru the 3rd quarter. Riley had already abandoned the running game by then. If not then the FG return is a situation they may have never been in in the first place.
In another thread, I posted a listing of all the games in the last 5 years that Bob has lost where OU was a double-digit favorite. Not to mention the Cotton Bowl against A&M, the blowout loss to Baylor 2 years ago in Norman, and also the back-to-back poundings that Clemson has given OU in the postseason. Since I'm going to assume you will take the position that lack of execution was the issue, does that mean Bob's teams are some of the most horrendous executing teams in college football?? A few losses here and there are one thing, but Bob's team are developing a pattern of not executing. That is a pattern of pitiful coaching and poor player preparation in my opinion. Now Bob has cleaned his staff of many of the coaches responsible for most of those debacles. But the Houston game look eerily reminiscent of all those games I listed from the last 5 years. After a while the pattern starts to point towards the coaching staff. Or at the very least, the coaching staff is recruiting players that simply are unable to consistently execute what they are trying to teach them. Which again...falls on the coaches.
Yes, Oklabama. Morgan County was where the soldiers came to "assist" my ancestors in packing their bags for Oklahoma. I've read there are some Morgan County people still showing characteristics of the mixed races.
Tri-racial isolate Condaleezza Rice family stayed around Birmingham and were not ordered to Oklahoma. Condi is Cherokee-European Caucasian-Sub Saharan African, as am I. My paternal grandfather was Kiowa-European Caucasian so I have claimed Kiowa instead of the dreaded Cherokee. I've had a long time running battle with activists from the Eastern Band of the Cherokee. I know the wonderful Western Cherokee people but very little of the Oklahoma Cherokee Nation.
My bucket list has a trip to Morgan County and dining at the Sunburnt Cow Restaurant in Manhatten.
Tri-racial isolate Condaleezza Rice family stayed around Birmingham and were not ordered to Oklahoma. Condi is Cherokee-European Caucasian-Sub Saharan African, as am I. My paternal grandfather was Kiowa-European Caucasian so I have claimed Kiowa instead of the dreaded Cherokee. I've had a long time running battle with activists from the Eastern Band of the Cherokee. I know the wonderful Western Cherokee people but very little of the Oklahoma Cherokee Nation.
My bucket list has a trip to Morgan County and dining at the Sunburnt Cow Restaurant in Manhatten.
I have a cousin that lives in Decatur we are going visit. We spent a lot of time together at Lake Guttersville when I lived in Huntsville before moving to Oklahoma. That was way back in the 50's. Beautiful state Alabama is but very rural where all my remaining relatives live....and there's not many left. This may be my last trip to the old home state. I hope you stratch off Morgan County from your bucket list soon.
Not saying a wholesale lack of execution at all. There are so many little things that add up when two teams that are evenly matched. When Seibert false started, that's not an issue if he's kicking it from 45 rather than 53 1/2. It was a convergence of stuff. The two previous plays we lost back to there. That's more stuff. It wasn't wholesale. It was little stuff adding up. I believe there was also a penalty just before that.
If any official had a view of the Baxter "fumble" which very very likely happened after he was down, then it's a different game. Their first drive, they called a ticky tack, really nothing there DPI on Dakota Austin. All three talking heads, even Lugginbill the OU hater, said it was a lousy call. Two things happened. We did stop them and they made the field goal. But he barely got it in there. Had their kicker been 15 yards back, that same kick misses wide. What happens to his confidence if that's an MFG rather than an FG? That call diminished Austin's confidence, and it's hard enough to play corner without worrying about a ticky tack call, when you make a good aggressive play. A little thing, but a difference maker.
If we had Anderson or Perine for the second and early third quarter, we can play differently.
The true freshman corner got them going, when we'd been struggling to keep them from moving. Instead, they get momentum. Those early first downs on the first or second series of any drive are the crucial ones. Now the defense is back on their heels. It's not a little thing, but it's about a dumb dumb mistake by a talented but very inexperienced corner.
Stuff started adding up. It's little things that start adding up.
We had a good plan and stopped their quarterback run, well. But Evans gives Ward a tiny shove after his ball release that wouldn't knock me over. But Ward flops and the official calls it. Obo is OUr best pass rusher, but on a third down when we stop them, he raises his hands to block the throw, misses the ball, and then comes down in Ward's face. We'd stopped them, but they got the first down. It sustained the drive.
These are not talent issues. They are absolutely not game plan issues. They are player mistakes that Houston didn't make. Some of that is a difference between being at home or not. Some of it is discipline problems. I've read guys on this site complaining that OUr coaches should be playing the talented guys, over the more experienced guys. But you cannot count on Obo to be a leader or a big part of your defense, when he makes that mistake, or blows a coverage on the goal line for an easy touchdown. He did the Bill Cosby thing: "so I grabbed my head."
Cobb's mistake might be written off as a young guy. But he wasn't trying to make a play. It was just a stupid lack of discipline. That is inexcusable, whether you're playing for Oklahoma in a season opener, or for Podunk High School. That he didn't play much after that, says to me that when he got chewed out for his stupidity, that his reaction wasn't how a freshmen should respond to his HC. Especially not to Bob Stoops.
Another combination of bad Karma, and yes I don't believe in Karma, but a few of us are uncomfortable with Mixon returning kickoffs. I understand the reasoning. I disagree with having him do that, but I trust the decision makers.
But Joe is used to playing 60% of the offensive plays. And if we lose Perine, two things happen. One is that he has to raise up a level. He is going to get more reps. He has to be fresh. The added duties of kickoff returning might not be worth it, under those circumstances. I get why Bob has him back there then. We needed a big play, and it wasn't much forthcoming elsewhere.
But I thought Joe looked less than 100% after Samaje left. And the combined duties, including offensive double duty took a small toll on him. Not a big deal. But enough little things start adding up.
Meanwhile, they have a receiver making a spectacular catch. Their guy is an inch from stepping out, before he runs 109.9 yards for an FG return touchdown. Those little things were the difference in the games. Small execution issues added up. Their guys made more plays than OUr guys did.
And in your mind, coaching and preparation have nothing to do with this. I think differently.
Not at all. But this isn't a John Blake coached team. You go compete. The coaches do it. The players do it. You go put it on the line. But for you and way too many guys here, every loss is the fault of coaches. The stuff I cited are player issues. And they were the difference in the game.
Do you blame coaches for a true freshman DB doing something really dumb? I know how Bob stresses that stuff. He stresses not making the late hit. THey talk about it weekly. Likely daily. Then a player goes and throws a guy to the ground way too late. How is that a coach problem? Should they be using cattle prods?
They spent most of the preseason without one or the other of their two inside linebackers. They barely got to work together because of injuries to one or the other. How is that a coaching problem? Evans the senior captain shoves the quarterback in the back picking up a roughing penalty, when it was about to be second and 30. That's not a competing penalty. It's just stupid. How is that a coaching problem?
You want to blame almost everything on coaches. It's not a non factor. But Bob Stoops stresses the things and works on the things that didn't get done. Is it Stoops fault that Seibert false started?
Players play the game. But here, and on the premium side, when we get beat, there are 15 threads bashing coaches for a sub par performance, for every post that talks about the specific issues in the game. And most of the coach bashing is pure second guess. We ran. It got stopped. Well, that was a stupid call. That doesn't consider what all went into the preparation. You bashed the game plan. You don't know what the game plan was. You don't know what the players were supposed to do, compared to what they did. But you claim without reservation that you know it was a game plan issue. When Perine got hurt, well I guess we're supposed to have his equal behind him. That is unrealistic. But it doesn't stop you from placing blame on the coaches. And it's after every loss.
That is seldom the case. And with this staff, less than seldom.
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No, I've never put everything on the coaches. Players do in fact make mistakes that win or lose games. But I refuse to put it all on the players and their lack of execution. I can assign blame to each side depending on the outcome, and don't give the coaching staff blanket immunity and zero responsibility like you. And even though I don't put everything on the coaches, one undeniable FACT is coaches are held responsible for results on the field. Period. You can dance around that all you want Plaino, but coaches are retained or fired for win/loss records.
And not knowing what the specific game plan was before I questioned what I saw is irrelevant. If you take that stance, then you are just as wrong for defending it when you aren't privy to the exact game plan they were going for either. Hell, it appears Baker didn't even know the actual game plan and he's the starting QB!!! Perine got dinged up early in the game, but he was still playing till the end and even got a couple carries in the 2nd half. Just because you don't hit home runs every time you run the ball, then why give up on it??
And your last line about "this staff", I would tend to say "this staff" is still in the process of making their marks at OU. They had a great season last year, but one great season does not mean they are suddenly immune to criticism and can do no wrong. They had a great season in the Big XII, then got pushed around pretty handily against Clemson. So all they have proven is they can win a Big XII title. But in terms of further goals, they still have their work cut out for them.
And not knowing what the specific game plan was before I questioned what I saw is irrelevant. If you take that stance, then you are just as wrong for defending it when you aren't privy to the exact game plan they were going for either. Hell, it appears Baker didn't even know the actual game plan and he's the starting QB!!! Perine got dinged up early in the game, but he was still playing till the end and even got a couple carries in the 2nd half. Just because you don't hit home runs every time you run the ball, then why give up on it??
And your last line about "this staff", I would tend to say "this staff" is still in the process of making their marks at OU. They had a great season last year, but one great season does not mean they are suddenly immune to criticism and can do no wrong. They had a great season in the Big XII, then got pushed around pretty handily against Clemson. So all they have proven is they can win a Big XII title. But in terms of further goals, they still have their work cut out for them.
If backseat driving turned a profit, we'd have some millionaire posters!
OU Football fans talking about how well coaches coach after a loss is like asking a three year old that missed naptime who to vote for in November.
OU Football fans talking about how well coaches coach after a loss is like asking a three year old that missed naptime who to vote for in November.
A "team" in my opinion includes players and coaches. Failure to "execute" can be either or both on players and coaches. Coaches have to "execute" development of the players and "execute" a winning game plan. Players have to "execute" running, passing, blocking, tackling, kicking and receiving within a game plan.
What I saw last Saturday was a poorly prepared and coached Oklahoma team against a very focused and determined and well coached Houston team. The OU players did not execute. The OU coaches did not execute.
So sue me.
I'd be surprised if Coach Stoops didn't feel the same way. He may not like to hear it from fans and the media, but if he is at all like coaches I have known, he feels he and his staff could have done a better job getting the team prepared, putting them in the right position on the field or making better calls. I doubt Bob would lay all the blame on his players. I think he is critical of himself more than some think. But maybe he isn't. I wouldn't bet against it so I don't feel bad for Bob when I criticize or question his coaching. Why some do puzzles me.
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So BillyRay puts all the blame on the coaches. Plaino puts all the blame on the players. At what point will you guys realize that your generalizations about each other are wrong. BillyRay tends to post more about his opinion on coaching performance. Plaino tends to post more about the players performance. I've never seen either of you solely blame anyone, except each other.
This is not a critique or a request, just an observation. You both keep it civil but this issue has been the bane of the board for several years and we've lost posters because of it. Maybe you guys should realize that you are both correct, wins and losses fall on the entirety of the Sooners. What BillyRay has posted about the coaches is valid. Riley said that he became impatient. What Plaino has posted about the players is valid. They made some bone headed mistakes.
Guys like me depend on guys like you to feed the board knowledgeable and interesting posts. It's ULM week and we're stuck on last Saturday. How about some matchups for todays game for us football dummies?
This is not a critique or a request, just an observation. You both keep it civil but this issue has been the bane of the board for several years and we've lost posters because of it. Maybe you guys should realize that you are both correct, wins and losses fall on the entirety of the Sooners. What BillyRay has posted about the coaches is valid. Riley said that he became impatient. What Plaino has posted about the players is valid. They made some bone headed mistakes.
Guys like me depend on guys like you to feed the board knowledgeable and interesting posts. It's ULM week and we're stuck on last Saturday. How about some matchups for todays game for us football dummies?
I think OU may struggle at bit but win by a respectable margin without covering. I think Andrews will have a big game and the running backs get 150 yards. Kind of worried about the ULM run game.
So BillyRay puts all the blame on the coaches. Plaino puts all the blame on the players. At what point will you guys realize that your generalizations about each other are wrong. BillyRay tends to post more about his opinion on coaching performance. Plaino tends to post more about the players performance. I've never seen either of you solely blame anyone, except each other.
This is not a critique or a request, just an observation. You both keep it civil but this issue has been the bane of the board for several years and we've lost posters because of it. Maybe you guys should realize that you are both correct, wins and losses fall on the entirety of the Sooners. What BillyRay has posted about the coaches is valid. Riley said that he became impatient. What Plaino has posted about the players is valid. They made some bone headed mistakes.
Guys like me depend on guys like you to feed the board knowledgeable and interesting posts. It's ULM week and we're stuck on last Saturday. How about some matchups for todays game for us football dummies?
Alright, this post confused the hell out of me. Are you a "Nellie" or a "Pumper"? Pick a side and stay on your side of the line. No straddling allowed!
Oh, and good post, whatever you are.
So BillyRay puts all the blame on the coaches. Plaino puts all the blame on the players. At what point will you guys realize that your generalizations about each other are wrong. BillyRay tends to post more about his opinion on coaching performance. Plaino tends to post more about the players performance. I've never seen either of you solely blame anyone, except each other.
This is not a critique or a request, just an observation. You both keep it civil but this issue has been the bane of the board for several years and we've lost posters because of it. Maybe you guys should realize that you are both correct, wins and losses fall on the entirety of the Sooners. What BillyRay has posted about the coaches is valid. Riley said that he became impatient. What Plaino has posted about the players is valid. They made some bone headed mistakes.
Guys like me depend on guys like you to feed the board knowledgeable and interesting posts. It's ULM week and we're stuck on last Saturday. How about some matchups for todays game for us football dummies?
I don't put all the blame on the players. But I strongly object to the default mode here after every loss. When players don't execute the way they were taught to in practice, that's not on coaches. If there is a crappy game plan, then that is usually a coaching problem, but those who make that accusation here, don't know what the game plan was, yet the willingly criticize it.
Most of the winning and losing is done by players. It's why Nick Saban won a lot more games in Alabama than he did when he coached in the MAC.
Is it possible that following a defeat we can blame the players sometime, the coaches sometime, or BOTH sometime ?
And is it possible that this debate is about as silly as the medieval debate over how many cherubs can fit on the head of a pin ?
And is it possible that this debate is about as silly as the medieval debate over how many cherubs can fit on the head of a pin ?
Like I said before, there is zero need to have intimate knowledge of the game plan to know what we saw on the field was junk, and clearly changed from one half to another. You seem willing to defend the apparent game plan, yet I'm quite certain you aren't privy to inside knowledge of the game plan either. So why take your current stance towards those who criticize it?? But even Bob Stoops confirmed that they changed focus on offense in the 2nd half when they fell behind.
But early in the game it was clear the game plan was to involve a running game correct?? Perine, Mixon and Brooks had a total of 13 carries for the entire game....9 of them were in the 1st half. And 3 of OUs scoring drives for the game were in the 1st half.
But in the 2nd half, OUs RBs had 4 carries and the offense went nowhere. Bob spoke of being "out of balance", but why panic and get away from what was working in the 1st half?? OU scored on 3 of their 5 possessions in the first half. They panicked, ditched the run game, and scored once in 7 possessions in the 2nd half. I know some of those were fumbles, but had they stuck with running those fumbles may not have happened right??
I know Perine got hurt in the 1st half, but Bob kept him in the game till the end. And Mixon wasn't getting any handoffs either. But even if Perine was hurt, why not keep Brooks in the game? He got one carry for no gain right after Perine got hurt, then they pulled him from the game. Not long after, Perine was back in.
Hey, at least James Allen agrees with me. I'm quite certain he knows a thing or two about a running game in college football.
Comparing 1990 Nick Saban to the current Saban is like apples and oranges. That takes zero account of him learning anything in the 17 years between coaching at Toledo and taking on the Alabama job.
But since you brought that up, Saban was at Toledo for one season. The 3 seasons prior to his arrival, they went 14-17-1. Saban comes in and goes 9-2 in his only season. Gary Pinkle takes over for the next season and goes 5-5-1. So it would seem that even that long ago, Saban's coaching had a significant impact. I mean if it's "winning and losing is done by players", then how did Saban manage to squeeze 9 wins out of a program the coaches prior and after him couldn't manage?? Coaching matters!!!
But I do agree that a coach needs talent to win. They can't just trot out a team full of walk-ons and compete for national titles. But since you brought it up, now that should bring up the question if Bob is capable of luring the talent to Norman to get back on that level again?? And if that's the case, then the "losing and winning done by players" is in fact the responsibility of Bob Stoops since he is the head coach and steering the ship of recruiting and developing the players he chooses to bring into his program.
So once again we come full-circle, and back to the starting point of the coaches are in fact ultimately responsible for results on the field.
That's too bad. There is a perpetual gold mine of info in my post. You may have learned something you didn't already know.