Ref Question

[LakeCtyNewt]

To any of our resident refs, do officials that referee IHSA sanctioned games have to be IHSA patched?

Heard of something in a game last night where officials were from out of state and weren’t up to speed on IHSA rules

 

[HRCJR]

What rules are different in Illinois?

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

What rules are different in Illinois?

I don’t know that there should be. The rule I heard was that in the state they were from the officials there are instructed that if a d-lineman jumps he is allowed to get back in sides. Maybe it’s just an interpretation thing.

 

[Chief321]

You can be patched in multiple states. And different states do have different rule modifications. Maybe they have different rules in Iowa and the guys got confused. Who knows

 

[RetiredReferee]

I don’t know that there should be. The rule I heard was that in the state they were from the officials there are instructed that if a d-lineman jumps he is allowed to get back in sides. Maybe it’s just an interpretation thing.

I have no reason to doubt you, but that specific example doesn’t seem like it would be open to interpretation.

 

[Jchill-1]

All I know is the officiating has been horrific the last three years. I don’t know if anyone else has noticed this. I know it’s not easy to be an ref, but some really big mistakes should not be made. Give you an example, a personal foul was called on a play, marked off the penalty but didn’t give them a first down because it was 3rd and 20. Should be automatic first down. The clock issues are horrific. A team ran three plays, one of them a qb roll out, all within 8 seconds. That’s impossible. Besides missing obvious holding penalties where o line tackles the defensive linemen. Crazy. I understand it’s not easy. I will have poster fry me for it. Lol. Just want to see if anyone else sees the same thing. By the way, thinking about reffing myself at some point in the near future. I used to ump baseball.

 

[gdub86]

Personal foul isn’t an automatic first down in high school. Only if it’s a roughing the passer/kicker/holder/snapper.

 

[RetiredReferee]

All I know is the officiating has been horrific the last three years. I don’t know if anyone else has noticed this. I know it’s not easy to be an ref, but some really big mistakes should not be made. Give you an example, a personal foul was called on a play, marked off the penalty but didn’t give them a first down because it was 3rd and 20. Should be automatic first down. The clock issues are horrific. A team ran three plays, one of them a qb roll out, all within 8 seconds. That’s impossible. Besides missing obvious holding penalties where o line tackles the defensive linemen. Crazy. I understand it’s not easy. I will have poster fry me for it. Lol. Just want to see if anyone else sees the same thing. By the way, thinking about reffing myself at some point in the near future. I used to ump baseball.

A personal foul is not an automatic first down in NFHS. All I know is the criticism of referees has been pretty bad the last three years.

 

[Jchill-1]

A personal foul last night on a running back was an auto magic first down on 2nd and 25.

 

[RetiredReferee]

A personal foul last night on a running back was an auto magic first down on 2nd and 25.

Was is a roughing penalty?

 

[Jchill-1]

It was a dead ball foul on a linebacker

 

[Chief321]

All I know is the officiating has been horrific the last three years. I don’t know if anyone else has noticed this. I know it’s not easy to be an ref, but some really big mistakes should not be made. Give you an example, a personal foul was called on a play, marked off the penalty but didn’t give them a first down because it was 3rd and 20. Should be automatic first down. The clock issues are horrific. A team ran three plays, one of them a qb roll out, all within 8 seconds. That’s impossible. Besides missing obvious holding penalties where o line tackles the defensive linemen. Crazy. I understand it’s not easy. I will have poster fry me for it. Lol. Just want to see if anyone else sees the same thing. By the way, thinking about reffing myself at some point in the near future. I used to ump baseball.

Not an automatic first for a personal foul. Just because someone holds doesn’t make it holding. It has to have a material effect on the play. We don’t control the clock, the school does. In general you don’t fix the clock unless you know for sure how much should run off, we aren’t just subjectively saying “oh it’s impossible the to do that in 8 sec”. In general I think HS officiating is solid. It’s really easy to pick out mistakes when you clearly don’t know the rules or philosophy of officiating I encourage you to be the change you want to see and come officiate. We need bodies more than ever. And despite the abuse it’s a pretty rewarding gig

 

[Jchill-1]

I did mention I’m probably going to do it next year. But have to disagree about the clock. Watched the officials take time off and put time back on 4 times on same play. They gathered for about 15 min. In that time they changed the clock 3 times, threw a penalty flag on a delay of game, then met again, decided no flag. Then put 2 more seconds on the clock. All the time they were discussing it, the coach was in their conversation. If that’s normal, I guess I should reconsider. I understand the school controls the operation of the clock but the ref should enforce it. Imo

 

[Chief321]

Go sit in the corner and get a think for about that for 15min and then tell me again they took 15min. Your narrative and embellishments of this “horrible” officiating changes with every comment. 1-2min can seem like eternity when nothing is happening. Taking some time to make it right is important, even if it does upset the masses. I don’t think you realize how hard it is to control the clock while you officiate a play. You can’t look at it during the play bc you have 22 players and action to watch and you aren’t counting seconds in your head. You have to trust they start and stop it as instructed. The best chance to catch/fix is if it runs long and you see it when you look up. You have a right to have an opinion on the state of officiating but it’s frustrating when people over exaggerate or change situations, or are flat out wrong on rules to support their opinion.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

I did mention I’m probably going to do it next year. But have to disagree about the clock. Watched the officials take time off and put time back on 4 times on same play. They gathered for about 15 min. In that time they changed the clock 3 times, threw a penalty flag on a delay of game, then met again, decided no flag. Then put 2 more seconds on the clock. All the time they were discussing it, the coach was in their conversation. If that’s normal, I guess I should reconsider. I understand the school controls the operation of the clock but the ref should enforce it. Imo

The only thing worse than provoking the posse is.........provoking the refs!

 

[Goomlah]

New York with the clock is even weirder. The refs get paid to run the clock and if they don't it's unofficial. No it doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Goomlah]

I think the real problem started with Plainfield North Fenwick and the aftermath of it. Yes there were complaints one way or another, but the scrutiny and downright loathing of officials has just gotten worse. We officials work just as hard as you do reading the rule books, checking new rules, watching videos and games, etc.

When something happens I'll be the 1st to say something. But please realize we're human as well. We're not robots. We have feelings. We have families. WE DON'T WANT TO SCREW UP EITHER. And the codes are not the same on Friday as it is on Saturday or Sunday. Please people. Just listen.

 

[RetiredReferee]

I think the real problem started with Plainfield North Fenwick and the aftermath of it. Yes there were complaints one way or another, but the scrutiny and downright loathing of officials has just gotten worse. We officials work just as hard as you do reading the rule books, checking new rules, watching videos and games, etc.

When something happens I'll be the 1st to say something. But please realize we're human as well. We're not robots. We have feelings. We have families. WE DON'T WANT TO SCREW UP EITHER. And the codes are not the same on Friday as it is on Saturday or Sunday. Please people. Just listen.

This is odd coming from the guy who was the loudest about calling for those five official’s heads. That includes giving out some of their personal information.

So, who are you crapping with this?

 

[ref2]

This is odd coming from the guy who was the loudest about calling for those five official’s heads. That includes giving out some of their personal information.

So, who are you crapping with this?

Could not have said it better.

 

[Quags22]

As I have said many times, I believe high school officials should be paid more.

The New York clock issue is a perfect example. Why would a clock operator at the high school games get paid more than the game officials? Or a public address annoucer? Yet it happens here at many games I cover.

We want the best for our games and our players. Why not get the best to officiate them?

I am not saying the current crop of officials are bad. There just isn't enough incentive to make them better. Competition (thanks to higher pay), will force everyone to be better. Because of that, you won't see sill mistakes like I did on Saturday.

There was a hit out of bounds and a flag was properly thrown. The run ended at the 9-yard line going in. Thus the enforcement should have been half the distance, placing the ball at the 4-1/2. Instead the officials spotted the ball at the 2, saying later that it was marked from the spot of infraction.

Pay them more. Make the officiating better.

 

[Chief321]

There was a hit out of bounds and a flag was properly thrown. The run ended at the 9-yard line going in. Thus the enforcement should have been half the distance, placing the ball at the 4-1/2. Instead the officials spotted the ball at the 2, saying later that it was marked from the spot of infraction

I get people’s frustrations with something like that. That’s unacceptable and a pretty basic enforcement

 

[RetiredReferee]

I get people’s frustrations with something like that. That’s unacceptable and a pretty basic enforcement

Reminds me of some of those Monday emails we get from the last week’s issues. I don’t mind criticism, that comes with the territory. What I mind are the people who (seemingly) don’t have a clue (Quags, by a far margin, does not the fit that description), or people who trash refs and give out personal details of refs.

FWIW, one of my proudest moments was getting ripped by posters here. It was very “meta” to read people that you’ve read criticize you.

 

[Jchill-1]

Reminds me of some of those Monday emails we get from the last week’s issues. I don’t mind criticism, that comes with the territory. What I mind are the people who (seemingly) don’t have a clue (Quags, by a far margin, does not the fit that description), or people who trash refs and give out personal details of refs.

FWIW, one of my proudest moments was getting ripped by posters here. It was very “meta” to read people that you’ve read criticize you.

Stripes, I would love for you to sit next to me at a game and when the refs make a huge mistake, you can tell me why it was made. Because you think things that do happen are overblown. Lol. Nobody can tell you anything. I can tell. That’s ok tho. Each his own. Your still good to me. Lol

 

[RetiredReferee]

Stripes, I would love for you to sit next to me at a game and when the refs make a huge mistake, you can tell me why it was made. Because you think things that do happen are overblown. Lol. Nobody can tell you anything. I can tell. That’s ok tho. Each his own. Your still good to me. Lol

You are 100% wrong about me.

I’m also busy the next 7 Friday’s.

 

[Goomlah]

Well those refs should have gotten scrutinized. I also said they were human and we shouldn't have a witchhunt. That was my fault for posting where they were.

My biggest problem with that is we had exactly the same play enforced incorrectly in a college game 10 weeks prior. It is what it is now. I'm not in the state anymore.

 

[Hillini74]

You are 100% wrong about me.

I’m also busy the next 7 Friday’s.

How about the 5 Saturdays after that?

 

[Hillini74]

Quick clarification question. Team A kicks off. The ball lands at the 25 and Player A, instead of gaining control of the ball, clearly and intentionally bats it forward to the the 5 yard line where it is recovered by Team B and downed. Does the ball stay at the 5, or should it be placed at the spot of first touch, or should there be a penalty for illegal touching?

 

[RetiredReferee]

How about the 5 Saturdays after that?

The last 2, sure.

 

[RetiredReferee]

Quick clarification question. Team A kicks off. The ball lands at the 25 and Player A, instead of gaining control of the ball, clearly and intentionally bats it forward to the the 5 yard line where it is recovered by Team B and downed. Does the ball stay at the 5, or should it be placed at the spot of first touch, or should there be a penalty for illegal touching?

Just to be clear, the player batted the ball 70 yards?

 

[Jchill-1]

Quick clarification question. Team A kicks off. The ball lands at the 25 and Player A, instead of gaining control of the ball, clearly and intentionally bats it forward to the the 5 yard line where it is recovered by Team B and downed. Does the ball stay at the 5, or should it be placed at the spot of first touch, or should there be a penalty for illegal touching?

Quick clarification question. Team A kicks off. The ball lands at the 25 and Player A, instead of gaining control of the ball, clearly and intentionally bats it forward to the the 5 yard line where it is recovered by Team B and downed. Does the ball stay at the 5, or should it be placed at the spot of first touch, or should there be a penalty for illegal touching?

Hillini, this is where stripes and the refs get together for 15 min or wait, one to two minutes to decide the rule. Lol

 

[Chief321]

What’s your ruling on it jc?

 

[ignazio]

Just to be clear, the player batted the ball 70 yards?

Is the batter the pitcher or can they use a DH?

 

[Chief321]

Was hoping jchill would grace us with his expansive rules knowledge. He must be taking his “15min” to make sure he gets it’s right. I know guys that do that too, it’s cool
1. There is no illegal touching on this play, A(or K) has a right to touch this ball. And even if they didn’t have a right to yet(before 10yds) it’s still not a foul. R would just have the right to have the ball at the spot of that touch(not in this play though because their touch was legal) Really common misconception there
2. If it was a clear bat then the status of the ball doesn’t change(we still have a kick/loose ball) which means we have to have a previous spot enforcement(rekick from the 25)or R can decline I suppose and take the ball @ 5.

That’s a tough play. Now try to think through that after the fact where it happened really fast and maybe only 1 guy saw it, and a bunch of extra yelling to cloud your thinking. This play is gonna take a convo of a min or 2. Sorry for wasting your precious time jchill

 

[RetiredReferee]

Is the batter the pitcher or can they use a DH?

DH only in the ESCC

 

[RetiredReferee]

Was hoping jchill would grace us with his expansive rules knowledge. He must be taking his “15min” to make sure he gets it’s right. I know guys that do that too, it’s cool
1. There is no illegal touching on this play, A(or K) has a right to touch this ball. And even if they didn’t have a right to yet(before 10yds) it’s still not a foul. R would just have the right to have the ball at the spot of that touch(not in this play though because their touch was legal) Really common misconception there
2. If it was a clear bat then the status of the ball doesn’t change(we still have a kick/loose ball) which means we have to have a previous spot enforcement(rekick from the 25)or R can decline I suppose and take the ball @ 5.

That’s a tough play. Now try to think through that after the fact where it happened really fast and maybe only 1 guy saw it, and a bunch of extra yelling to cloud your thinking. This play is gonna take a convo of a min or 2. Sorry for wasting your precious time jchill

I misread where the ball was being batted and where it ended. Not a 75 yard bat.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Just because someone holds doesn’t make it holding. It has to have a material effect on the play.

I'm not doubting you, but can you quote this in the IHSAA rulebooks? Because I 100% question this. I see holding calls all the time that are 20-30 yards away from the ball on the opposite end it's happening. ALL THE TIME. Even at the college level. Just had this discussion on a horrible "chop block" call in the Iowa/NIU game where the linemen was within the given 5 yards, engaged at the level of the waist, and it was at the opposite end of the line and had no material effect on the play.

IHSAA officials "call what they see". And if they see a hold, the call it. Except when they don't. So if there is official verbiage that negates this I'd like to see it for my own education and to pass on to others. But I know for a fact it's not the standard on a very regular basis.

 

[RetiredReferee]

Just had this discussion on a horrible "chop block" call in the Iowa/NIU game where the linemen was within the given 5 yards, engaged at the level of the waist, and it was at the opposite end of the line and had no material effect on the play.

Where was the second blocker?

 

[Chief321]

A chop or clip or anything of that nature is a safety foul, we’re gonna try and get that anywhere on the field. Holding should have a material effect on the play. If the right tackle holds the end on a pop pass to the left that’s nothing Also just because it’s a shirt grab doesn’t make it holding, there has to be restriction of movement. We should see a hold say that’s a hold that’s a hold that’s a hold and have it impact the play then throw. I know for a FACT that’s how’s it’s taught at the college level. HS should be that way but doesn’t have the same oversight These are officiating philosophies that we follow, hopefully.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

A chop or clip or anything of that nature is a safety foul, we’re gonna try and get that anywhere on the field. Holding should have a material effect on the play. If the right tackle holds the end on a pop pass to the left that’s nothing Also just because it’s a shirt grab doesn’t make it holding, there has to be restriction of movement. We should see a hold say that’s a hold that’s a hold that’s a hold and have it impact the play then throw. I know for a FACT that’s how’s it’s taught at the college level. HS should be that way but doesn’t have the same oversight These are officiating philosophies that we follow, hopefully.

Thanks. It will help me personally and to pass that on. And for the record the "chop" I referenced wasn't just not material to the play but not a chop at all by the definition of the rule.

But technically re: holding that's a "philosophy that's taught" and not formally a rule? Is that true. Just clarifying.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Guido Sarducci]

Where was the second blocker?

There was no second blocker.

A ref can chime in but in this play it was 3 yards downfield, away from the play, with the defender facing the lineman and he initially engaged at about the level of the waist/hips. I think beyond 5 yards he cannot go low. He didn't go at the knees or anything. The ref flagged him. It cost Iowa a 30 yard run