Ref Question

[badfrog68]

I need some clarification on what happened at the LWW/Sandburg game last night

LWW scored the tying TD with 50 seconds left in regulation. Sandburg gets the ball, runs the time down to under 2 seconds left and takes a timeout. I assumed (incorrectly) that they did this to try a Hail Mary with no time remaining but they did not, on the last play they took a knee. On that knee play, a flag was thrown. The refs huddled for a long time and eventually brought the coaches to midfield and talked for much longer. The final decision was that they would start overtime with the penalty of 15 yards (not sure what penalty was actually called as I saw nothing) being enforced on LWW in overtime. This gave LWW 4 downs to score from the 25 instead of the 10. Big difference.

My understanding has always been a game can't end on a penalty. I thought they would walk off the penalty and Sandburg would have one more play to run. Then OT starts if Sandburg does not score.

Is OT considered an extension of the regulation game so that is why they enforced the penalty in OT and Sandburg did not have to run one more play?

 

[Goomlah]

My guess is the foul occurred after the play, AFTER the clock expired,.. The 15 yard penalty if memory serves doesn't carry over but I don't have my rule book in front of me.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

Mouthing off to the refs? Someone said or did something post play? I could see a penalty like that causing issues on where to enforce it since it technically happened after regulation ended. If a tree falls in the woods with no one around, does it make a sound?

 

[badfrog68]

Mouthing off to the refs? Someone said or did something post play? I could see a penalty like that causing issues on where to enforce it since it technically happened after regulation ended. If a tree falls in the woods with no one around, does it make a sound?

Voodoo, I am not questioning the validity of the penalty, just the execution of the enforcement of said penalty.

I admit I find it unusual to have an unsportsmanlike penalty at the end of a tie game with no contact being made by any players on either team but as you said, it was probably a verbal issue. If so, and the LWW player went far over the level of acceptance by the ref, then I have no problem with the ref throwing the flag only a problem with the LWW player who said whatever stupid thing he said.

I just want clarification as to why the penalty was not enforced in regulation instead of OT. If the kid said the same thing at the end of a blowout win where a knee was being taken, what then? Or do the refs just not throw a flag in that case.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

Voodoo, I am not questioning the validity of the penalty, just the execution of the enforcement of said penalty.

I admit I find it unusual to have an unsportsmanlike penalty at the end of a tie game with no contact being made by any players on either team but as you said, it was probably a verbal issue. If so, and the LWW player went far over the level of acceptance by the ref, then I have no problem with the ref throwing the flag only a problem with the LWW player who said whatever stupid thing he said.

I just want clarification as to why the penalty was not enforced in regulation instead of OT. If the kid said the same thing at the end of a blowout win where a knee was being taken, what then? Or do the refs just not throw a flag in that case.

Yeah - it's a valid question. Not sure what happens if the after play unsportsmanlike penality happens after regulation expires. One would think their would be one untimed down before the OT starts? But... I'm not a ref.

 

[RetiredReferee]

A live ball foul by the defense extends the period.

 

[linetogain]

Only live ball fouls that are accepted during a play in which time expires, can extend the period with 1 untimed down. My guess it was a dead ball foul after the play had been blown dead and time had expired. Which would be enforced at the succeeding spot to start the next period or OT.

If there was no physical contact after time had expired then it was likely a unsportsmanlike conduct foul.

Personal Foul- Physical contact
Unsportmanlike- Verbal, non contact

 

[badfrog68]

Only live ball fouls that are accepted during a play in which time expires, can extend the period with 1 untimed down. My guess it was a dead ball foul after the play had been blown dead and time had expired. Which would be enforced at the succeeding spot to start the next period or OT.

If there was no physical contact after time had expired then it was likely a unsportsmanlike conduct foul.

Personal Foul- Physical contact
Unsportmanlike- Verbal, non contact

Thank you for the info. So if time has expired in a time game and any penalty is called, it is enforced in OT. If the foul happens before time expires, another play occurs before regulation is officially over.

Does it make a difference in OT who gets the ball first? For example, If Sandburg gets the ball first in OT instead of LWW, what happens then? Do they wait until LWW gets the ball to add on the penalty yards or does Sandburg start at the 5 instead of the 10 because the penalty is half the distance to the goal?

 

[linetogain]

Thank you for the info. So if time has expired in a time game and any penalty is called, it is enforced in OT. If the foul happens before time expires, another play occurs before regulation is officially over.

Does it make a difference in OT who gets the ball first? For example, If Sandburg gets the ball first in OT instead of LWW, what happens then? Do they wait until LWW gets the ball to add on the penalty yards or does Sandburg start at the 5 instead of the 10 because the penalty is half the distance to the goal?

There are a FEW exceptions to the rule for fouls that happen during a live ball that won't extend the period (unsportsmanlike, non-player foul, loss of down foul, subsequent KO fouls) but for the most part yes MOST fouls that happen during a live ball while time expires, if accepted, will extend the period with 1 untimed down. By reading your response I believe you've got a understanding.

If accepted: (FEW exceptions)
Live ball foul during last play and time expires - extend period 1 untimed down
Dead ball foul after time expires- enforced next period or OT

It doesn't make a difference who wins the coin toss for OT and chooses Offense or Defense for the carry over dead ball foul.
Offended team won and chose Offense:
1/2 the distance to the 5 yard line. 4 plays to score
Offended team won and chose Defense:
backs the Offenders of the foul up 15 to the 25 yard line. 4 plays to score

Vice versa if the Offenders won the toss:

Offenders won and chose Offense
Starts 1st series of 4 plays from 25 yard line
Offenders won and chose Defense
start 1st series 1/2 the distance at the 5 yard line

 

[badfrog68]

There are a FEW exceptions to the rule for fouls that happen during a live ball that won't extend the period (unsportsmanlike, non-player foul, loss of down foul, subsequent KO fouls) but for the most part yes MOST fouls that happen during a live ball while time expires, if accepted, will extend the period with 1 untimed down. By reading your response I believe you've got a understanding.

If accepted: (FEW exceptions)
Live ball foul during last play and time expires - extend period 1 untimed down
Dead ball foul after time expires- enforced next period or OT

It doesn't make a difference who wins the coin toss for OT and chooses Offense or Defense for the carry over dead ball foul.
Offended team won and chose Offense:
1/2 the distance to the 5 yard line. 4 plays to score
Offended team won and chose Defense:
backs the Offenders of the foul up 15 to the 25 yard line. 4 plays to score

Vice versa if the Offenders won the toss:

Offenders won and chose Offense
Starts 1st series of 4 plays from 25 yard line
Offenders won and chose Defense
start 1st series 1/2 the distance at the 5 yard line

Great,. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

I love having Refs at the Edgy Nation!!!

 

[PowerI66_]

Can't there be a roughing the passer penalty when the QB pitches the ball to the RB on an option play?

 

[Chief321]

Can't there be a roughing the passer penalty when the QB pitches the ball to the RB on an option play?

If he's pitching the ball backward on a running play he is not a passer, so he is not protected like one. You could however have a personal foul if he was not in the action after he pitched it and was hit unnecessarily.

 

[RetiredReferee]

If he's pitching the ball backward on a running play he is not a passer, so he is not protected like one. You could however have a personal foul if he was not in the action after he pitched it and was hit unnecessarily.

This.

 

[RetiredReferee]

Can't there be a roughing the passer penalty when the QB pitches the ball to the RB on an option play?

Kind of reminds me of a youth coach who was screaming at me for calling roughing the passer on a half back throw.

 

[ref2]

Did he pitch it forward ?

 

[PowerI66_]

Did he pitch it forward ?

Yes, but it was not a shovel pass. Slightly past lateral.

 

[ref2]

If he threw it forward it would be a pass, then you could have roughing .

 

[ref2]

Kind of reminds me of a youth coach who was screaming at me for calling roughing the passer on a half back throw.

Heard that one plenty. And they always say he wasn't the quarterback. "Coach it's called roughing the passer, not roughing the quarterback"