Right to work.....finally

[oldsports_]

What factory if you don't mind saying. If not, I understand.

With that, where do you think they'll expand? Why wasn't there an expansion in Louisville? Also curious why the union wasn't embraced in Indiana even though they are a RTW state. I'm sure the local shop would lI've to have members in both.

We are at maximum capacity, building, land, and utilities, expanding our plant wasn't a option. When flexo printing phased out in the late 1990's, they could have easily shut us down, but they started gravure printing, expanding every 2 years till there is no room left.
So as a business owner, as all of you who are in favor RTW are, why not go to Mexico, as we have a plant there, or to a RTW state like Ind. Ind makes 14.23/hr, max out at 2 weeks vacation, 7 day work schedules and are made to work their off days, which some work upwards of 20+ days straight. They pay 90 per week/healthcare with 6000 out of pocket, where we pay 22 a week, and 2500 out of pocket.
There are many factories which I know, treat their employees with respect and fairness, so there is no need to unionize. The area I work in, the factories who employee 300+, are all union, and this keeps the the scum away, or the others honest. Drive two counties away, who have little mom and pop operations, 10/hr and very little benefits and are filled with temps and immigrants.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

The reason it gets political is because jobs left this country for lower wages. As Trump forces them back here by creating policy that will tax those companies who are American and ship jobs overseas then sell their cheap products here we will be getting more work back.

KY has possibly lost a few thousand jobs to the surrounding states that are RTW states around us. Yes RTW essentially lowers entry level wages but there is no proof at all that it will lower all wages.

It is clear in even the union people's minds that they think they should be paid more across the board. My thing is in every non union shop or workplace people get merit raises for their work not because the union fought for or got them to strike for something because they no longer approve of their contract.

Also they do not want it to be about politics however they vote heavy democrat(except this year thankfully) who have put the rest of the world into direct competition with American labor which has dropped the wages more so than unions have raised them. Of course they don't want to discuss that because they can't win that conversation.

Ultimately it is about business, and whether we like it or not I'll take 50,000 working strong at $12-14 an hour than 20,000 strong at $18-20 an hour and apparently corporations feel the same way. Let's not pretend corporations don't give raises for those that they find valuable enough to keep.

Add to all of that in KY unions only represent 11% of our workforce and and 13% nationally........and those union people live in a pretend world that they are what holds wages up in this country.

Now call me stupid, dumb and ignorant then proceed to only address the issues you want to discuss that you "know" that you are right about.

Exactly. As with all liberal economic ideas, it's about rewarding the least common denominator rather than rewarding those who excel/produce.

 

[3rex]

So much wrong with this post. Just everything. I give up.

Translation: The union didn't tell me what I'm supposed to say to that & I'm not smart enough to come up with my own response.

 

[warrior-cat]

Krazy - stay away from the FedEx and UPS comparison. You have no idea what you're talking about on this one as it is NOT as simple as one has unions and one does not.

They both have unions to some extent.

And i am definitely pro-business.

Carry on with the discussions / rants. I am quite sure in the next 5 pages one of you guys will convince the other to agree with your line of thinking and come to 'your' side - whichever one you're on.

The bottom line that me and others are trying to get in is that without unions it will not be a race to the bottom for wages as was posted earlier. That is a fallacy brought by pro union zealots. Plus, it was unions that brought down the auto, steel, and other American companies in the past. they were useful once and now only serve to line the pockets of a few.

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

Translation: The union didn't tell me what I'm supposed to say to that & I'm not smart enough to come up with my own response.

For the last time, I'm not part of a union and I'm not a democrat.

 

[Bill Derington]

The bottom line that me and others are trying to get in is that without unions it will not be a race to the bottom for wages as was posted earlier. That is a fallacy brought by pro union zealots. Plus, it was unions that brought down the auto, steel, and other American companies in the past. they were useful once and now only serve to line the pockets of a few.

Warrior, I generally agree with most of your takes, but I can't on this one. Unions didn't take down those manufacturing bases. Thats like blowing your engine, and then blaming it on a tire.

 

[warrior-cat]

Warrior, I generally agree with most of your takes, but I can't on this one. Unions didn't take down those manufacturing bases. Thats like blowing your engine, and then blaming it on a tire.

It helped along with not keeping up with the times. But, my original take stands for me, they have outlived their usefulness and if they fall, it will not mean the end of good wages for workers. That is just patently false.

 

[fatguy87]

For the last time, I'm not part of a union and I'm not a democrat.

Being in a union and/or a democrat isn't necessary in being against RTW laws. Even Libertarians often will argue against such laws.

 

[warrior-cat]

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-how-labor-unions-affect-jobs-and-the-economy

The above site is a good read on what unions overall affect is on economies.

 

[Bill Derington]

It helped along with not keeping up with the times. But, my original take stands for me, they have outlived their usefulness and if they fall, it will not mean the end of good wages for workers. That is just patently false.

How do you figure they have outlived their usefulness?
You really think without the threat of workers organizing companies wouldn't lower wages? Really?

 

[BernieSadori]

How do you figure they have outlived their usefulness?
You really think without the threat of workers organizing companies wouldn't lower wages? Really?

I think wages would go down. But I also believe more jobs would stay in the USA.

Unions are great if you have seniority. Much more murky waters for those down the list.

 

[warrior-cat]

How do you figure they have outlived their usefulness?
You really think without the threat of workers organizing companies wouldn't lower wages? Really?

Not as far as some would lead us to believe and there would be a lot more of them. Plus no dues.

 

[VilleCat_rivals377292]

Average wages may go down, but number of jobs will go up. Net gain overall.

 

[DSmith21]

Only about 6.5% of private sector workers belong to a union and that figure is shrinking. The only place where unions were growing was in the public sector (government jobs) where about 35% of workers belong to a union.

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

Average wages may go down, but number of jobs will go up. Net gain overall.

Wages will go down 10-15% and number of jobs "may" go up a quarter to half a percent. But then most of those jobs are leaving other states so it's not a net increase nationwide at all. Not a good trade, unless you are in corporate ownership.

 

[warrior-cat]

Only about 6.5% of private sector workers belong to a union and that figure is shrinking. The only place where unions were growing was in the public sector (government jobs) where about 35% of workers belong to a union.

Yes but, those suck. I am in one and getting them to do anything is like pulling teeth.

 

[3 fan_rivals214492]

The blind logic of those supporting RTW is pulled straight out of Republican propaganda booklets. Someone above said they don't believe it lowers wages. If you are that dumb please just leave. Idiots

 

[louisvillesux]

Can't the wage thing be because of specialized labor?

What I mean is let's say there is a bid taken from contractors and the job is to be prevailing wage. All of a sudden you've eliminated competition therefore created a niche group of contractor bids.

Less competition = higher bids naturally

From me asking questions to people in my life that will be affected by this what I've come away with is

FedEx pays the same as UPS

Toyota pays the same as Ford

The govt pay is **** regardless but the benefits are worth it

Union pay has helped independent non union electricians and plumbers etc. by charging so much on jobs that independent contractors can charge more than normal and beat union bids.

Key is "more than normal" lol.

Toyota doesn't pay the same as ford, it's a few dollars less per hour. They also have worse benefits and job security. The only reason Toyota pays what it does here in Kentucky is to keep the union out. Auto manufacturers in the southern rtw states pay around 14-18 per hour. Not arguing,just sharing info.

 

[BernieSadori]

The blind logic of those supporting RTW is pulled straight out of Republican propaganda booklets. Someone above said they don't believe it lowers wages. If you are that dumb please just leave. Idiots

Yet it's Trump keeping union jobs here as a result of promised regulatory and tax overhauls.

What has the Democrats done to keep union jobs in America since President William J. Clinton signed NAFTA?

 

[3 fan_rivals214492]

Yet it's Trump keeping union jobs here as a result of promised regulatory and tax overhauls.

What has the Democrats done to keep union jobs in America since President William J. Clinton signed NAFTA?

I never mentioned Trump. NAFTA was without question the most harmful legislation every produced by America.
I'm blasting that damn moron Bevin and those suck asses who never wore a pair of work gloves but voted party lines like a bunch of lemmings running off a cliff

 

[3 fan_rivals214492]

I'm still on the first couple of pages of this thread, but there is at least one crazy person on here regarding the facts and choice.

Let's say there is a group of 100 employees. It only takes (prior to rtw) 51 of those employeesto sign cards and become union. The other 49 had no choice in the matter and we're forced to become union.

RTW will be a great thing for the state of KY.

I hope you are making a weak attempt at sarcasm. Research what RTW has done in other states.

 

[krazykats]

I'm blasting that damn moron Bevin and those suck asses who never wore a pair of work gloves but voted party lines like a bunch of lemmings running off a cliff

:joy: The hypocrisy runs deep with this one!

 

[JohnBlue]

The bottom line is that if unions are as great as some claim everyone will want to be part of them thus it doesn't matter what the law is. If you're against this law you obviously have little faith in unions.

 

[3 fan_rivals214492]

:joy: The hypocrisy runs deep with this one!

The idiocy runs deep with this one

 

[krazykats]

Awwww, can't defend yourself so call me names. So cute!

So you are for unions and higher wages and all that good stuff, but vote democrat as they are the "union party". Meanwhile the union party is pro illegal cheap labor which seems to be against what you are, and you vote for them anyway?

Now read your post about voting blindly etc etc.

And I'm the idiot. [thumb2]

 

[louisvillesux]

The bottom line is that if unions are as great as some claim everyone will want to be part of them thus it doesn't matter what the law is. If you're against this law you obviously have little faith in unions.

i am against the law for a few reasons. but the biggest of which is that when unions lose power, workers suffer. at a time when take home pay of working Americans is stagnant, the last thing we need are laws that result in workers making less money. thats what RTW and getting rid of prevailing wages will do.

 

[JohnBlue]

i am against the law for a few reasons. but the biggest of which is that when unions lose power, workers suffer. at a time when take home pay of working Americans is stagnant, the last thing we need are laws that result in workers making less money. thats what RTW and getting rid of prevailing wages will do.

I'm not going to argue whether that is true or not but this law doesn't get rid of union's and if they are truly the workers best option people will naturally join them. I mean who doesn't want to make more money?

Just a common sense approach here but if the union works as described I see no concern for the union folk. I'll close with this... if the only way something can be great is to force it on people it's not really that great. The better option will attract people to it.

 

[krazykats]

Exactly. Pro unions democrats can't explain that though!


Everyone will now start making min wage!

 

[louisvillesux]

I'm not going to argue whether that is true or not but this law doesn't get rid of union's and if they are truly the workers best option people will naturally join them. I mean who doesn't want to make more money?

Just a common sense approach here but if the union works as described I see no concern for the union folk. I'll close with this... if the only way something can be great is to force it on people it's not really that great. The better option will attract people to it.

why would you naturally join a union, if you can get all of the benefits without paying? you choose to be in a union when you take a union job and accept union pay and benefits. shouldn't be allowed to freeload on the backs of others. figure my fellow conservatives can at least understand that. and make no mistake, my union does a great job and i have no concern for myself. its the next generation of workers that will be hurt by these laws.

 

[JohnBlue]

why would you naturally join a union, if you can get all of the benefits without paying? you choose to be in a union when you take a union job and accept union pay and benefits. shouldn't be allowed to freeload on the backs of others. figure my fellow conservatives can at least understand that. and make no mistake, my union does a great job and i have no concern for myself. its the next generation of workers that will be hurt by these laws.

Sounds like you're saying you don't need a union then. I hope you don't think that unions are above recruiting people that are going to hand them money. As I said, if what they offer is the better deal it should be an easy sell. Not everyone that works at the same place makes the same money either, if unions truly work for the better of their members they'll find a way for those members to make more than none members.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

I've been fighting and struggling for 40 years for the right NOT to work. It is still a distant dream.

 

[louisvillesux]

Exactly. Pro unions democrats can't explain that though!


Everyone will now start making min wage!

man, im as conservative as they come. i have been in two unions, one is great, one was horrible. i can see both sides of the issue

Sounds like you're saying you don't need a union then. I hope you don't think that unions are above recruiting people that are going to hand them money. As I said, if what they offer is the better deal it should be an easy sell. Not everyone that works at the same place makes the same money either, if unions truly work for the better of their members they'll find a way for those members to make more than none members.

Maybe I'm not communicating well, my apologies. No,those people need a union. But with rtw laws they don't need to pay for it. Which will eventually lead to its demise. We need police and fire protection, but if paying taxes were optional many people wouldn't pay.

 

[krazykats]

That's the thing, personally I don't get bothered by unions at all and I am not saying death to unions.

BUT, for the non GE, Ford, UPS, IBEW types RTW is probably better off for THIS very poor state!

Not even sure what the issue is since those groups will not be broken up anytime soon regardless as their unions are strong.

 

[louisvillesux]

That's the thing, personally I don't get bothered by unions at all and I am not saying death to unions.

BUT, for the non GE, Ford, UPS, IBEW types RTW is probably better off for THIS very poor state!

Not even sure what the issue is since those groups will not be broken up anytime soon regardless as their unions are strong.

Certainly, unions are not optimal at every workplace. And this law won't be the death of unions. But ,along with erasing the prevailing wage laws, it will lead to lower wages in the state. And there are mixed reviews on whether it will lead to job creation or not. We became the 2nd largest auto producing state without rtw laws, not sure why this law is necessary.

I appreciate the conversation man.

 

[UKRob 73]

Union's don't have to represent non paying members. The whole free loader argument is not correct.

 

[Bluetick2100]

Union's don't have to represent non paying members. The whole free loader argument is not correct.

Non members get pay raises and benefit increases to match their dues paying union members.
No they are not free loaders, they are scabs.

 

[Violent Cuts]

Certainly, unions are not optimal at every workplace. And this law won't be the death of unions. But ,along with erasing the prevailing wage laws, it will lead to lower wages in the state. And there are mixed reviews on whether it will lead to job creation or not. We became the 2nd largest auto producing state without rtw laws, not sure why this law is necessary.

I appreciate the conversation man.

I've never seen Kentucky as the 2nd largest - I've seen 3rd on a measure once, but I think it's closer to 5-6. Can you provide an article?

 

[louisvillesux]

I've never seen Kentucky as the 2nd largest - I've seen 3rd on a measure once, but I think it's closer to 5-6. Can you provide an article?

no, i just read it somewhere once. wouldnt surprise me if kentucky is 3rd and ohio is 2nd.

 

[louisvillesux]

Union's don't have to represent non paying members. The whole free loader argument is not correct.

that is just 100% false. they have to have same representation as dues paying union members. they also must receive same pay and benefits.

 

[oldsports_]

Union's don't have to represent non paying members. The whole free loader argument is not correct.

Once again, this guy is wrong!!
http://www.nrtw.org/your-right-to-work-rights-in-three-minutes/