Rooting For Manning and the Broncos

[SanAntonioCat_rivals376502]

This Super Bowl reminds me of #3 featuring Joe Namath and the upstart Jets against the established Colts of a revitalized Earl Morand and an injured Johnny Unitas. We know how that turned out.

The 50th Super Bowl has a similar scenario set up with Carolina and Cam Newton as the young guns and the Broncos as the establishment of the NFL.

The big question is can the Denver defense shut down Carolina?

 

[optimus-blue]

How is that backing up your point

[/QUOTE

I know you weren't meaning to, but thanks for backing up my point. Last time I checked it takes a team to win a game.....let alone coaching and planning. Manning's numbers are similar to Brady's numbers. So, the losses must be coming from another aspect. Perhaps from the lack of personnel, coaching, and front office....which I mentioned in my original post.

The numbers are not similar, The QBR that you are using also shows Peyton was one worst QB's in the league this year. Brady holds almost all record in playoffs and has 4 Super Bowls wins. You acting like Manning played on horrible teams, he played on 10-12 win teams every year, Tell me which stats are important.

 

[Chuckinden]

I hate UT with a passion, but the Manning family is just pure class. Have always liked Peyton at both the Colts and the Broncos. I would like for him to be able to finish his career winning his second Super Bowl. I just think the Panthers are playing at a level that may be to much for Denver.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[BlueRaider22]

How is that backing up your point

The numbers are not similar, The QBR that your are using also shows Peyton was one worst QB's in the league this year. Brady holds almost all record in playoffs and has 4 Super Bowls wins. You acting like Manning played on horrible teams, he played on 10-12 win teams every year, Tell me which stats are important.

Well, of course, the QBR shows Manning has played poorly this yr......because he has. He's 197 yrs old in NFL yrs and needs a glove on his throwing hand just to grip the ball. QBR is not the best measure to be sure, but it's a valid measure......especially when you are considering the extreme career lengths both of these guys have had.



Let's break down the QBR further to illustrate a point.

Brady has played in 31 post-season games. He averages 2.0 TDs/game, 1.20 TO/game, 256 yds/game.
Manning has played in 26 post-season games. He averages 1.6 TDs/game, 1.11 TO/game, 281 yds/game.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/2330/seasontype/3/tom-brady
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/1428/seasontype/3/peyton-manning


Brady's regular season avg/game: 257 yds/game, 1.98 TD/game, 1.0 TO/game.
Manning's regular season avg/game: 271 yds/game, 2.1 TD/game, 1.1 TO/game.


So, as you can see, both QB's get things done in the playoffs. Amazingly, both QB's excel in the post-season about as well as they excel in the regular season. Somehow a notion has begun that Manning folds in the post-season. His numbers do not support this at all. So, where does this notion come from? It comes from his teams losing in the playoffs. But it's clearly not because he played poorly. It's due to other reasons. And that would be coaching and surrounding talent.

Nobody is saying that Manning has had poor teams. Quite the contrary. The very fact that he has played in 26 post-season games states to the contrary. But it is an extremely valid point that Manning has not had the support that Brady has.

For example:
1. Is there another HC in the NFL during the Manning/Brady era that has even been on the same level as Belichick? And, should you come up with a name or two, how many have coached Manning?
2. Is there another owner/front office during the Manning/Brady era that has been on the same level as Craft/New England? Maybe Bisciotti/Newsome from Baltimore comes to mind.....Packers, maybe? This is important, b/c these are the people who build the teams.


That's the point I made above. You mentioned overall wins and losses, but those are TEAM records, not valid measure of individual performances in this case. The point that both Brady/Manning have excelled during the regular season. And that they BOTH have excelled in the post-season.....as far as individual performance is concerned. In fact there's not a lot of significant difference between their averages both regular and post-season at all. The difference is who has been around them.

 

[optimus-blue]

Manning played in a Dome and had better weapons than Brady most years (Wayne,Harrison, James )He played for Tony Dungy ( HoF coach) , Jim Mora, not a bunch of stiffs like you claim..Brady is 22-9 in the playoffs , Manning will be 13-14 after this Super Bowl. In Brady first Super Bowl he was 16-27 for 145 yards his QBR was 86.5 those numbers don't blow you away until you watch the game and see the magic he pulled off at the end playing a team that was heavily favored. His QB rating for Super Bowls is 95.3 (13 touchdowns to 4 Int ) where as Manning QBR in his Superbowls was 81.0 ( 3 TD to 4 Int ) Are those QBRs number similar ? Maybe but it's more about how they played and if their team won. Manning lost a Super Bowl because he threw a bad pick he against against the Saints . When you are talking about the GOAT those things matter.

 

[VFO]

Manning 3-2 against Brady in the playoffs. What does that say about Cheater Brady (Peter Brady...get it)? The 4 Super Bowls for the Pats were just as much about Bellichek and the rest of the offense and defense as it was about Brady. Manning holds every statistical record of meaning for a QB and has never (until his Broncos years) had the supporting defense that Brady has had with the Pats during their 4 Super Bowls.

^ This

 

[BlueRaider22]

Manning played in a Dome and had better weapons than Brady most years (Wayne,Harrison, James )He played for Tony Dungy ( HoF coach) , Jim Mora, not a bunch of stiffs like you claim..Brady is 22-9 in the playoffs , Manning will be 13-14 after this Super Bowl. In Brady first Super Bowl he was 16-27 for 145 yards his QBR was 86.5 those numbers don't blow you away until you watch the game and see the magic he pulled off at the end playing a team that was heavily favored. His QB rating for Super Bowls is 95.3 (13 touchdowns to 4 Int ) where as Manning QBR in his Superbowls was 81.0 ( 3 TD to 4 Int ) Are those QBRs number similar ? Maybe but it's more about how they played and if their team won. Manning lost a Super Bowl because he threw a bad pick he against against the Saints . When you are talking about the GOAT those things matter.

You're not listening.

Where did I say that guys like Dungy/Mora are "stiffs?" I asked are they on Belichick's level? On the college level Belichick's like Saban and Dungy/Mora are like Miles. All are great coaches but Belichick's/Saban are beyond rare. Not to mention the front office/ownership.

And both of these QBs are beyond rare as well. It doesn't matter who you send their way. Both can take normally 500 yd WRs and turn them into 1000 yd WRs. And when either get a Moss or Gronk or Thomas or Thomas they blow up the world.

I agree that QBR doesn't show the clutch moments. That's a valid argument. My retort to that would be to say that both QBs are so elite and that they have such a large sample size that I doubt you'd see a negative pattern in the clutch moments.

The difference between winning SB's and going out in the playoffs is a knife edge. Brady has just had a better situation for his entire career.

 

[theoledog]

I say Denver is going to have to come up with some new wrinkles or this game could get away form them....
PM/Denver can't afford to get behind and they'll need to keep CP/Newton off the field in order to do that....
Both teams play great defense.... My thing with CP is that Newton hasn't played in a SB... I still have a hard time with all that Superman crap... But having seen him at CWS I can' understand the confidence.... That's one talented man.

Don't see how a QB with Manning's arm can still win... but he does.
On paper it sure looks like CP win.... I think Denver is going to come after Newton hard.... Just like they did with Brady... They'd better come after him.... Playing an extra man in coverage will allow Newton to run and that's not good unless they lay the wood to him... Denver going to have to take the smile off Superman's face and see if the guy can still make things happen.... Until I see him do it I don't think he can....

I think this games going to be a slobberknocker

 

[Kooky Kats_anon]

He's the only Vol I like.

Reggie White in a landslide.

Screw Peyton Omaha 5head Snotnose Choker HGH Ragarm Vol ... Go away already.

 

[optimus-blue]

Peyton and Manning have only played 5 times in the playoffs which is odd since both players have been on teams that was either a 1 or 2 seed over the last 15 years , one reason for that is Manning teams in 9 of those years where beat out in the first round. At the end the day , from last year Super Bowl to Brady's first , I can give example of clutch play in playoff games to win championships and titles, forget the stats looks at clutch play in those times, not generic stats. People talk about how the younger Manning beat Brady , but in reality Brady gave his team the lead with less than three minutes to go in those game. But he is judged on who won. By career stats Dan Marnio was better than Joe Montanta, nobody believes that, If you gloss over the playoff win loss record Superbowl performance ,clutch play in championship games. I see your point , stats are similar. Once again Peyton greatest regular season QB of all time, but he not the greatest QB of all time that is tie between Montanta and Brady, Brady has a shot next year barring injury so that might not even be tie much longer

 

[vhcat70]

Growth hormones are good.

 

[BlueRaider22]

I'm not implying that Manning is he best of all time. Just that Brady's situation has been absolutely ideal. It's not a huge stretch to think that if Manning had been drafted by NE that he'd be the one with multiple rings. Just like it's not a stretch to say that if either QB were drafted by Cleveland or Detroit that neither would have a single ring.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

By career stats Dan Marnio was better than Joe Montanta, nobody believes that...

I do. Montana won more games and more titles because he was on better teams. It's really quite simple.

 

[optimus-blue]

NFL is all about the QB, every thing goes thru them.The team is better because of the QB.How do you the know the team would be good without QB ? If you think Marnio was better than Montana, that all you have to say. It's fun to talk about stats but championships and playoff wins , clutch games when it matters are what you are remembered for ,that's just how it is. it's really quite simple.

 

[Anon1712931820]

I do. Montana won more games and more titles because he was on better teams. It's really quite simple.

Crazy fact about Montana....his career Super Bowl TD to INT ratio is 11:0, 68% completion, 300+ passing yards average and his QBR rating was 127.8. Guy was crazy good in the biggest games.

 

[Anon1712931820]

championships and playoff wins , clutch games when it matters are what you are remembered for ,that's just how it is. it's really quite simple.

So it is really simple to conclude that Robert Horry is a better player than LeBron James or Larry Bird or Magic or Kobe or Iverson or......

The QB can make skill position players look better, but they cannot make the offensive line and defense play better. Anyone who even begins to think Manning has had the same support as Brady is delusional and tells me all I need to know about that persons sports knowledge.

Not to mention we have no clue how many titles were won due to having illegally obtained film from the other team that gave them a competitive advantage.

 

[BlueRaider22]

Football is a team sport. There are 53 guys on a roster and almost every single one of them plays. Saying that it's all about the QB suggests that if you took Brady and gave him UK's roster that he would win SB's. (That's a hyperbole) The QB is the most important position that plays but it's not the entire team.

How do guys like Flacco and Big Ben win titles? Certainly they are really good QBs but would you say they are better than Brady/Manning? It's because they belong to organizations that are elite. They have great owners, great front offices, and great coaches.....all of which lead to great rosters and teams.

 

[optimus-blue]

I am sorry a QB in football is totally different than a role basketball shooter who hits some clutch buckets. Outside of two years with Moss Manning had better skilled players around him than Brady, so I really question your knowledge about the game .As far as cheating and illegal filming, their record is better after spy gate than before so I guess it didn't give them that big of advantage Unlike Manning who had his best season after severe neck injury and surgery, and his wife getting shipments of HGH during the same time period so who knows how much Peyton wife taking HGH gave him a competive advantage cough cough

 

[Glenn Fohr]

If he had been using HGH then that would explain his major drop off the last half of season 2014. He was having another record year going into the Arizona game last year and then, bam, he became very human. ??? Would that have been the point where he got off of the stuff?

 

[optimus-blue]

Big Ben is hall of famer sorry and Flacco has won one Super Bowl. Manning played with 2 hall of fame Wr, listen as long as win and losses doesn't matter Manning is better. Tim Couch played at UK and had just as good of stats as Manning in college, but nobody thinks he was better than than Peyton and he took a team the Outback bowl.

 

[optimus-blue]

NFL started testing for HGH in 2013 I think ?

 

[BlueRaider22]

Big Ben is hall of famer sorry and Flacco has won one Super Bowl. Manning played with 2 hall of fame Wr, listen as long as win and losses doesn't matter Manning is better. Tim Couch played at UK and had just as good of stats as Manning in college, but nobody thinks he was better than than Peyton and he took a team the Outback bowl.

*facepalm*

Yes, that's the point. Flacco and Ben did win big which is why I brought them up. If Ben gets drafted by the Browns, he probably doesn't win a single conference championship. If Couch gets drafted by a great organization do you think he has a better chance to succeed? Because I certainly do. As good as Flacco is, do you think he wins his SB ring without a Ray Lewis/Suggs/Reed defense? Or without a great coach in Harbaugh? Or without one of the best GM's in Ozzie Newsome that assembled the team?

And for that matter what about Dilfer? Did he win it because he was a stud or was it a collaborative effort from the organization as a whole?

 

[optimus-blue]

Peyton Manning had Bill Polan as a GM . he made the Hall of Fame last year. ha ha,I guess he was horrible. We are talking about years of winning with Brady not a one off Super Bowl. Poor Manning he didn't have players, coachs or a GM, It was all him in the regular season winning 10 -13 games a year and he just couldn't do it by hisself in the playoffs.

 

[David Rice]

I wonder how Brady would do if he leaves New England cause we saw how Cassel left New England after his 10-5 start, he hasn't done jack Squat since.

 

[kduncan55]

My perfect scenario would be to have Manning (and Trevathan) win the SB then substantiate all the rumors and buy into the Titans' ownership.

And the Adams kids actually sell to someone who wants to own the team and win!

 

[BlueRaider22]

Peyton Manning had Bill Polan as a GM . he made the Hall of Fame last year. ha ha,I guess he was horrible. We are talking about years of winning with Brady not a one off Super Bowl. Poor Manning he didn't have players, coachs or a GM, It was all him in the regular season winning 10 -13 games a year and he just couldn't do it by hisself in the playoffs.

My goodness it's like trying to have a logical conversation with an illogical teenager. Everything tends to be black/white, right/wrong......if you're not 100% for it then it means you are 100% against it.

Like if I said that "Nick Saban is a better coach than Les Miles" you would interpret it as me saying Miles is trash. No, I said Saban is better......in reality both are fantastic coaches.....Saban's just better.

Let's try this another way.

Owner: Jimmy Haslam (Browns) is not a good owner. Jim Irsay (Colts) is a good owner.....much better than Haslam. Robert Craft (Patriots) is an elite owner.......better than Irsay.

GM: Brown "GM of the day" is not good. Bill Polian (Colts) was a great GM and has been elected to the HOF. Belichick/Pioli are elite and are better than Polian.

Coach: Brown "coach of the day" is not good. Dungy, Mora were great......HOF. Belichick is the kind of coach that only comes around once a century....he's legendary.....he's on everyone's top 5 or 10 list of head coaches of ALL TIME.

QB: Manning is legendary. Brady is legendary. Both are on everyone's top 10 list of ALL TIME.

 

[SanAntonioCat_rivals376502]

My goodness it's like trying to have a logical conversation with an illogical teenager. Everything tends to be black/white, right/wrong......if you're not 100% for it then it means you are 100% against it.

Like if I said that "Nick Saban is a better coach than Les Miles" you would interpret it as me saying Miles is trash. No, I said Saban is better......in reality both are fantastic coaches.....Saban's just better.

Let's try this another way.

Owner: Jimmy Haslam (Browns) is not a good owner. Jim Irsay (Colts) is a good owner.....much better than Haslam. Robert Craft (Patriots) is an elite owner.......better than Irsay.

GM: Brown "GM of the day" is not good. Bill Polian (Colts) was a great GM and has been elected to the HOF. Belichick/Pioli are elite and are better than Polian.

Coach: Brown "coach of the day" is not good. Dungy, Mora were great......HOF. Belichick is the kind of coach that only comes around once a century....he's legendary.....he's on everyone's top 5 or 10 list of head coaches of ALL TIME.

QB: Manning is legendary. Brady is legendary. Both are on everyone's top 10 list of ALL TIME.

Well, I think that says it all......

 

[NavyCat88]

Not a Denver fan. I respect Peyton Manning but I am not a "fan" (UT). I'm pulling for the Panthers.

 

[optimus-blue]

I am not teenager but I know football and I kind doubt you do but at the end of day it's about winning and losing, it's never going to be on level playing field with any two players and QB that especially true. You throw around stats and ignore records. After the super bowl we will come back and have this conversation, but I am sure you have some stats that will say Manning wasn't as bad as it looked and it wasn't his fault. I am not the one who said that Manning and Brady are basicly the same in playoffs when it realitly they are not , Brady is simple better in the playoffs over his career. Both are HOF Qb's , one has just better when it counted and that's not slight on Manning in anyway

 

[optimus-blue]

I wonder how Brady would do if he leaves New England cause we saw how Cassel left New England after his 10-5 start, he hasn't done jack Squat since.

.




They didn't make the playoffs that year, he basicly took the reins of the team that went 18-1 and went 10-5 and didn't make the playoffs

 

[BlueRaider22]

I am not teenager but I know football and I kind doubt you do but at the end of day it's about winning and losing, it's never going to be on level playing field with any two players and QB that especially true. You throw around stats and ignore records. After the super bowl we will come back and have this conversation, but I am sure you have some stats that will say Manning wasn't as bad as it looked and it wasn't his fault. I am not the one who said that Manning and Brady are basicly the same in playoffs when it realitly they are not , Brady is simple better in the playoffs over his career. Both are HOF Qb's , one has just better when it counted and that's not slight on Manning in anyway

Have you read and tried to understand anything that I've said with an open mind? Cause if you did you wouldn't have posted 90% of what you posted in this thread.

I have never said that I wanted a level playing field as far as programs go. I just simply pointed out that it isn't a level playing field. Some players benefit from being in better situations. Some lose out from being in poor ones.

I have never ignored wins and losses. In fact in one of my earliest posts I addressed it. Wins and losses are a TEAM record not a single player record. Both Brady and Manning have won big but they couldn't have done it alone. It takes an entire organization to make it all happen.

And I'm very sure that everyone and their uncle (including me) has said that Manning is about 900 yrs old and past his prime. I haven't read a post on this thread that expects the senior citizen to play well in the SB this yr. Where did you come up with that?

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

I wonder how Brady would do if he leaves New England cause we saw how Cassel left New England after his 10-5 start, he hasn't done jack Squat since.

Yes, Matt Cassel was 11-5 with New England. Think about that. Matt Cassel. How did he do in KC? Dallas?

How many other players floundered before or after their time with the Patriots, but excelled in New England? Deon Branch. Cory Dillon. Randy Moss. Blount.

How many coaches excelled in New England and failed elsewhere? Crennel. Weiss. McDaniel.

Even front office guys - Scott Pioli was the next big thing, gave him control in KC. Dud.

All those lists could have more names I'm sure, that's off the top of my head.

All those people excelled when they had one thing in common: Bill Belichick.

I suspect Tom Brady would suffer similarly if he left.

 

[JohnnyGentle]

So it is really simple to conclude that Robert Horry is a better player than LeBron James or Larry Bird or Magic or Kobe or Iverson or......

The QB can make skill position players look better, but they cannot make the offensive line and defense play better. Anyone who even begins to think Manning has had the same support as Brady is delusional and tells me all I need to know about that persons sports knowledge.

Not to mention we have no clue how many titles were won due to having illegally obtained film from the other team that gave them a competitive advantage.

oh yeah julian edelman and wes welker were huge names before they went to new england

 

[DCFseattle]

Manning is 3-1 vs Brady in afc championship games.

3-2 overall in playoffs.

Manning had his team score more points at the end of games than Brady has in their matchups.

That's clutch.

Manning also has the most fourth quarter comebacks in nfl history, by a lot.

Also clutch.

I think Carolina wins this game, they're as dominant a team as I've seen in a while, but if manning gets his second championship, to go with his 5 mvp's (2nd is Favre with 4, no-one else had more than three) and his complete ownership of the quarterback record books, and dominated the rivalry in the biggest game setting he can play against what many believe to be the best post season qb of all time, he's got an unassailable claim to GOAT. He'll have the same argument Jerry rice has at the wide receiver position.

 

[Anon1712931820]

oh yeah julian edelman and wes welker were huge names before they went to new england

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I said the QB can make skill players look better, but they cannot improve the offensive line and defense. That is the cast I am speaking of that Manning has been dealt a crappier hand than Brady with. Manning has had Wayne and Harrison....that's about it. When the playoffs start you have to have a great defense and a great offensive line to protect the QB and establish a running game. Brady has been blessed with a better supporting cast (EVERY POSITION) and not just speaking skill players which is what people who have no clue how football really is played believes.

 

[uking1]

Why is everyone on this board big manning/broncos fans? What makes them so likable to all of you guys?

 

[Big John Stud]

My thoughts exactly.

Pure class? I wonder what the reaction would have been if Cam Newton refused to play for the team that drafted him.

 

[Anon1712931820]

Pure class? I wonder what the reaction would have been if Cam Newton refused to play for the team that drafted him.

Peyton I like. Eli on the other hand is a turd.

 

[Chuckinden]

Pure class? I wonder what the reaction would have been if Cam Newton refused to play for the team that drafted him.

That was Archie that made that decision. IIRC, Archie was representing Peyton as his Agent.

 

[buster3.0]

That was Archie that made that decision. IIRC, Archie was representing Peyton as his Agent.

What are you all talking about? In 1998 the Colts had the #1 pick. They selected Peyton. Peyton obviously played for the Colts. That was the year of the famous Leaf or Manning debate as to who should go #1. You must be thinking of Eli. I think the Chargers had the #1 pick that year but Archie made some maneuvers to get Eli to play for the Giants instead.