Well I've been on here for about 10 days I think.
I'm starting to do my own numbers, now that I finally have access to the substitutions.
Can't thank mekCat enough for letting me in on the secret!
Ryan Greer
- Thread starter hollandnucat
- Start date
Well I've been on here for about 10 days I think.
I'm starting to do my own numbers, now that I finally have access to the substitutions.
Can't thank mekCat enough for letting me in on the secret!
You're welcome! But I'd trust Cappy's numbers if I were you, saving a lot of work.
Bottom line, Boo doesn’t handle the ball well enough to be a point guard in the BigT. He should come off the bench as a 2 guard. Turns it over way to much and chucks up 3’s from all over the place. Not exactly what you want from your point.
You are correct sir!
I had to laugh last night when I switched to the Stanford USC game and the first thing I saw was a guy who looked a lot like Ryan Greer, running the offense for Stanford.
That's the bottom line? That's just silly. His handle is fine. He makes some poor decisions and he needs to get much, much better in pick and roll but you have an outdated view of what a point guard's role is in basketball, especially on a team that doesn't have many offensive weapons. And he's averaging 2 turnovers a game. You know what McIntosh averaged his last 2 years, 2.6 and 2.7. Buie has a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. The same as the very reliable Dave Sobolewski in his sophomore year. McIntosh's was lower than that in his last 2 years. And for all the 3's he's chucking up from all over the place, his shooting percentage from 3 is almost 36%, which is somehow higher than the very responsible Kopp. Really, he should be chucking up as many 3's as he can get and taking less 2-point shots. Our offense would be a lot more efficient. It's the consistency of his drives and floaters that have really been the issue. We need him to take some risks and occasionally that will lead to some bad shots. We do not have enough weapons on this team to have a lead guard that can't get his own shot off. And you know who turns the ball over a lot for a guy who doesn't touch the ball enough (according to almost everyone on the board), Ryan Young. He played 15 minutes in our loss to Illinois and turned it over 3 times. Against Purdue, he turned it over 4 times in 28 minutes. In the last game against Maryland, he played 17 minutes and turned the ball over twice on back to back possessions. Buie turned it over once in that game in 31 minutes and I am guessing he handled the ball a bit more than Young. Bottom line, he is currently our most talented point guard option and he's a sophomore, so he can get better. Last year Ryan Greer would take 3 non-threatening dribbles and pass the ball around the perimeter. Greer has improved a lot this year so I am not sure why Buie needs to be relegated to back-up shooting guard. I am all for getting Greer consistent minutes (15 plus a game) but if we are going to be a good team, Buie needs to be the lead guard until someone more talented comes along or Audige and Kopp emerge as consistent 15 plus point a game guys.
Greer makes more sense as the ball handler when Young and Nance are on the court at the same time. Buie has been better at the point in the last couple games, but against better teams he and Audige were terrible running the offense. In my opinion, both of those guys are shooting guards, though different styles.
I really wish Collins would play Young, Nance and Greer together just once for 20 minutes. He can rotate Audige, Buie and Kopp primarily in the other 2 spots. Most people recognize that Young is a "back to the basket" player and Nance is a skillful scorer who is not physical enough to play "center" but is a matchup problem for most forwards. Our rebounding would obviously be much better. Young is pretty skilled at kicking it out to guys who have been wide open (and often miss). With Audige, Gaines and Buie all showing that they don't know how to get the ball into the post, Greer is the only real answer for now. Maybe Berry can step into the point guard role eventually. Meanwhile, Let the shooting guards do what they should be doing - scoring points - without being burdened with running the offense.
Collins use of Nance OR Young, rarely both together, has been a disaster, as if we are trying to not win.
I really wish Collins would play Young, Nance and Greer together just once for 20 minutes. He can rotate Audige, Buie and Kopp primarily in the other 2 spots. Most people recognize that Young is a "back to the basket" player and Nance is a skillful scorer who is not physical enough to play "center" but is a matchup problem for most forwards. Our rebounding would obviously be much better. Young is pretty skilled at kicking it out to guys who have been wide open (and often miss). With Audige, Gaines and Buie all showing that they don't know how to get the ball into the post, Greer is the only real answer for now. Maybe Berry can step into the point guard role eventually. Meanwhile, Let the shooting guards do what they should be doing - scoring points - without being burdened with running the offense.
Collins use of Nance OR Young, rarely both together, has been a disaster, as if we are trying to not win.
You are correct sir!
I had to laugh last night when I switched to the Stanford USC game and the first thing I saw was a guy who looked a lot like Ryan Greer, running the offense for Stanford.
In the consecutive games against Indiana, Ohio State and Iowa earlier this year, Buie had 17 assists and 4 turnovers and we beat Indiana and Ohio State and played Iowa tough. I think Iowa and Ohio State qualify as "better" teams, don't you? You are actually correct about Beran. That's not debatable. His minutes should be significantly reduced. The Greer thing is just kind of laughable. Like when you said that we beat Minnesota not because of Buie's 17 second half points but because of the 5 minutes that Young played in the 2nd half. Boy, he really guarded the post well, Nice job, Ryan. See my post when Greer, Gaines and Young played together against Maryland. Young didn't get a shot off and we had to hoist 2 desperation 3s, Against Minnesota, they had a stretch with 1 shot in 4 possessions. When Young scored against Maryland at the end of the game , it was Buie that fed him in the post. If you want to start to run the offense through Young, teams will game plan for it and he will turn the ball over - a lot. He already does in very limited touches.
I happen to agree with most of what you said. But why cherry pick specific situations for Young/turnovers? The numbers don’t support him being a turnover machine. Picking specific situations to support the overall narrative seems misleading.
Young has the unfortunate luck of having a coach who believes he is too limited. But, yet, likes to play a close to completely new lineup 5-8 min into the game. So ends up with minutes in lineups often consisting of combinations of Greer/Gaines/Berry. In other words, lineups very limited offensively. Ironically, while CC clearly does not believe much in him, he likes more “polished” players, he ends up with lineups where the offense has to rely on him for creating any advantage. Not a great situation for turnovers.
Kid is being screwed. In minutes. In style of play. In the lineups he plays being so offensively challenged. He does not fit CC offensive ideas. It’s that simple.
I think his per 40 minute turnover rate would be a little higher than Buie's, so for a guy that doesn't touch the ball that much, that seems kind of high, particularly given that Buie is regarded as turnover machine by many. Honestly, though, if Young were being criticized all the time and folks only focused on Buie's strengths, I would probably be posting defending Young. It's kind of my nature. I am guessing that the majority of my basketball posts through the years have been defending Law, Nance and now Buie. In Law's and Nance's cases, they didn't meet folks expectations soon enough given their recruiting rankings. In Buie's case, he doesn't play like McIntosh or Sobolewski so they focus on his weaknesses. We absolutely don't win the last two games without him but most of the recent posts have been about how he needs to be replaced.
Also, I liked the offense that we ran earlier in the season. I thought it was fun to watch and it was effective against really good teams. Unfortunately, it depends in part on Beran being a stretch 4 that teams have to guard out past the 3-point line (and otherwise actually contributing on offense) and on Kopp being one of the best shooters in the conference. And certainly on Buie and Audige being better in their decision making and more consistent from game to game. I feel like if we primarily run the offense through Young in the post, we will go back to hoisting shots with the shot clock running down. I have no issue playing Young more frequently with Nance and running some plays for him in the post from time to time, but I think Collins is hoping that Buie, Audige, Kopp and Nance can be more consistent (and Beran can do something) in the current offense, because our ceiling is higher if that is the case on offense and defense.
You seem to enjoy mis-characterizing what other people write. Ryan Young plays well most of the time and contributes significantly to any success we have. Using the 2nd half of the Minnesota game as a benchmark for Buie's abilities is intellectually "suspect."
When it comes to Greer, I almost always make sure to clarify that I believe Greer at the point will enable others to play better, but primarily if Young and Nance are playing at the same time. Buie and Audige (maybe Kopp) could thrive with Greer at the point and Young and Nance occupying the post. The point is that Collins has not used this lineup despite the obvious reasons to try it. There is no doubt that Greer has been effective running the offense when given the opportunity in the 2nd half of the season.
This is my last exchange with you on this. You said, and I quote, "Buie was 5 of 13 from the field. He and Beran should be benched. We won because Ryan Young dominated the post and Minnesota missed a lot of shots." I was responding to that comment and the fact that you doubled down on it. We were down 31-25 at half against Minnesota when Young played most of his minutes. He scored 5 points in the game and played about 5 minutes in the 2nd half because of foul trouble. Buie scored 19 points in the 2nd half and scored 25 points on 13 shots. We clearly won because of Buie and Kopp and because Minnesota missed a bunch of shots. Not because Young played the most impactful 5 minutes of the season.
As for Greer, as I said I am fine getting him consistently 10-15 plus minutes a game (more if Buie is playing poorly). There is also no doubt that Buie has played better the past few games and, in my mind, that the offense is much more effective when he is playing well. I am also open to playing Greer and Buie together with Audige if that works defensively.
In the Minnesota game, Young, Nance, Kopp, Audige and Buie were on the court together from the 4:54 mark to the 0:42 mark. In that time, we turned a 49-48 deficit into a 61-54 lead and won the game. When Nance and Young played together that night, we had a 19-5 advantage in scoring (6:16 of game clock). That combo should be on the court all the time. Collins has not done that, a real shame for the team.
I'm glad Buie is recently playing a lot better than he did during the 13 game losing streak. I'll take his 4-7 for 11 points with 6 assists against Nebraska over his 5-13 for 25 points (12-12 free throws) and 1 assist Minnesota game. The free throws were great. I credited him for that. However, today was a nice step forward and gives me hope that winning matters more than being the high scorer on the team. I'm just saying his play has often looked to be self-absorbed and the results reflected that.
It was a really nice surprise that Buie didn't really take crazy shots today. Even the one on the fast break was a wide open look toed up to the line.
Except if they’re both on the court together then neither of them are getting a rest. Without a real third C option, that makes what you suggest tricky.
It's not everyday you can get the John Hancock of a world renowned bug researcher.
I am convinced that Audige is the best point guard on this roster. He’s not on the ball much, but he is much, much more relaxed when he is.
Confirmation bias is of course what it is, but I remember positive possessions yesterday where he found Kopp for a three after getting a high screen, and where he got to the bucket.
Boo has point guard skills, but would likely see his percentage go up with spot-ups versus pull-ups. And Berry has shown, particularly of late, that he can be an effective spot-up shooter.
Giving Chase the ball would not be giving it to AJ Turner because that was the best of bad options — it would be putting Boo and Audige both in a better position to maximize their skills.
Confirmation bias is of course what it is, but I remember positive possessions yesterday where he found Kopp for a three after getting a high screen, and where he got to the bucket.
Boo has point guard skills, but would likely see his percentage go up with spot-ups versus pull-ups. And Berry has shown, particularly of late, that he can be an effective spot-up shooter.
Giving Chase the ball would not be giving it to AJ Turner because that was the best of bad options — it would be putting Boo and Audige both in a better position to maximize their skills.
I remember Collins playing Jershon Cobb at point his first year and it actually didn't look too bad. Has he had some travails at point guard or what?
Sometimes it is because we are behind and Collins figures we need the O that Greer is limited in. Greer picks his spots but he is more likely to get more minutes when we are in the lead as he is more of a control the game guy. The old chicken egg argument
Not saying he hasn't. Just if we are behind, it is harder for Collins to use him a lot of minutes in his best role and we have been behind a lot
Last night offensively:
Greer running PG, no Buie: 14 points in 16 possessions, 0.88 pts/poss
Greer w/Buie: 7 points in 8 possessions, 0.88 pts/poss
Buie running PG: 58 points in 46 possessions, 1.26 pts/poss
and defensively:
Greer running PG, no Buie: 22 points in 17 possessions, 1.29 pts/poss
Greer w/Buie: 6 points in 8 possessions, 0.75 pts/poss
Buie running PG: 50 points in 46 possessions, 1.09 pts/poss
Greer running PG, no Buie: 14 points in 16 possessions, 0.88 pts/poss
Greer w/Buie: 7 points in 8 possessions, 0.88 pts/poss
Buie running PG: 58 points in 46 possessions, 1.26 pts/poss
and defensively:
Greer running PG, no Buie: 22 points in 17 possessions, 1.29 pts/poss
Greer w/Buie: 6 points in 8 possessions, 0.75 pts/poss
Buie running PG: 50 points in 46 possessions, 1.09 pts/poss
I don't think there's a debate that Buie played better than Greer last night. Buie had a good game. Thanks for the numbers.
I have not watched much of the team since about midway through the BIG Ten season. At that time, I thought Buie should be sat down on the bench. He was allowing too many turnovers for a point guard and he was also playing too far off his man on defense. And, he wasn't shooting well then. I was pretty frustrated that CC kept playing him so many minutes. Greer does a much better job in m opinion at this time, but he is not the scoring threat Buie is.
I am also frustrated that CC has been unable to bring some of these young players along faster or that someone on the staff is not teaching better defense.
Having said all that, I only watched part of the final game since then. So, my observations have a time frame to them.
I think everyone who was unbiased felt the same way about Buie and to some degree Audige a few weeks ago. Friends of mine who have been avid (or at least interested) Wildcat fans for decades stopped watching the games. As one of them said "Its not that Collins doesn't recruit decent players, he just doesn't know how to use them or teach them."
My big gripes are 1) unwillingness to put Nance and Young on court together 2) constant substitutions 3) way too many minutes for Beran based entirely on hope 4) fixation on using a "shoot first" scorer at point guard 5) complete lack of playing time for Matt Nicholson 6) removing players immediately after they commit a turnover or a foul... I'm just going to stop. Its a long list.
While agreeing with most of these points (everything but No. 5, really), I can see CC's perspective on Nos. 1 and 3, which boil down to Beran playing too much. There are these glimpses of him hitting 3s or driving for layups that you think we might really have something there. He can be a 12- to 15-point per game guy and a creator for teammates if he puts it all together.