So lets talk about those Spartans

[crazyduke3]

We can go ahead rest assure that these are NOT the same boys we beat wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back at the very beginning of the season. (can you believe that game was in NOVEMBER???? seems like forever and boy a lot has happened)

Yes they are a 7 seed. They are also in the F4 so that 7 seed means jack squat, ask Uconn.


Also spare me the Izzo sucks in April stuff, it's not like his teams have been play Virgins-and-wimps university every time. The man has won a title, so he's got the job done before, the F4 is hard as all get out and K has lost his very strong share of F4 games.... but both are still hall of famers and champions.

Dawson plain and simple outdid Harrell yesterday, who is very good, but was more worried about talking than playing. I know they have other players who have REALLY stepped up here recently. From what I've observed, they are very disciplined, share the ball well, play with great intensity and aren't worried about who their opponents are. They make the shots they need to. I still don't know a great deal about them but...

I think they will be far tougher than Gonzaga. I won't be surprised if they draw motivation from us beating them from before.

Should be great game. Spartan fans, feel free to stop in and contribute your thoughts about your team, we respect your kind around here. Just don't floor slap against

 

[Tim1515]

I feel better about this game then I did about the last two...which is making me worried...lol.

MSU doesn't beat themselves and tries to beat you in every physical aspect of the game. Duke needs to rebound well. If we are close on the boards I think our talent wins out over time.

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

I hate playing teams in the tourney that we have already beat in the regular season. Don't like dealing with the revenge factor.

 

[barkingpumpkin]

Originally posted by Tim1515:
I feel better about this game then I did about the last two...which is making me worried...lol.

MSU doesn't beat themselves and tries to beat you in every physical aspect of the game. Duke needs to rebound well. If we are close on the boards I think our talent wins out over time.

I think we need to limit live ball turnovers and get back on defense as well. MSU has less half-court offensive firepower than we do, and we can't allow them to mitigate that advantage through transition.

 

[DukiesDohK]

I feel pretty confident in this game.

I didn't with Gonzaga, I feared their bigs, but we handled them pretty well I'd say.

The thing about Mich St. is offensively the two guys I think we need to focus on the most will be Trice and Valentine. If Cook can do to Trice what he did to Pangos, then I think we get the W. Valentine vs. Winslow should be a great matchup.

If we play the D we have been of late (now 17 on KenPom...so we're now in the that top 20 defensively that Bilas and other "experts" were saying we weren't in and therefore wouldn't win it all pre-tournament) I think we should win this.

Mich St struggles to score, but are great on defense, really locked down Louisville in the 2nd half yesterday. I'll be interested to see if they take a page out of Notre Dame's book and let Okafor get his while covering our shooters.

I don't want to sound like a UNC THR poster, but I do think for a 7 seed there wasn't an easier path to the F4 than what MSU had, hence me picking them in my bracket. Virginia was falling apart, Oklahoma just isn't that good, and Louisville (like Virginia) is a great matchup for Mich St in that they can't score. Our offensive efficiency and great defense of late should win this one. It's Izzo though, so you can only be so confident.

 

[madrussian]

the mismatch in our favor is the inside game. okafer cannot be hesitant against these guys. msu has had trouble all year with tesms that play quality bigs. maryland, wisconsin duke etc all killed them inside.

they are not a good free throw shooting team.

but i am a bit concerned with the way jah was playing against utah and the zags. to me he seemed too hesitant when the shot was there. then he would get the ball in the high post and not get a quality shot. he will get banged around by 3 different players including dawson.he needs to be a bit "tougher" in the post in this one.

 

[HuffyJB]

It would be nice to see Jahlil back on track a little offensively. He did a good job not forcing things with the constant attention he got, and the other guys did a reasonable job taking advantage. It would be nice to see him get back to his average in scoring. That is the difference in a Duke scoring in the 60s vs. getting into the 70s.

The primary match-ups that jump out at me will be Matt Jones and Justise guarding Valentine and Dawson. In both cases Duke gives up some size and physicality. Those match-ups will likely go a long way in determining who wins.

 

[DukiesDohK]

Amile made a big difference yesterday slowing down Wiltjer in the second half. I wouldn't be shocked to see a lot of Amile vs. Mich St. The rebounding factor and the matchups would be better for Duke with Jones/Cook/Winslow/Jefferson/Jah lineup so that Winslow goes at Valentine and Jefferson goes at Dawson.

 

[Tim1515]

I also agree it would be nice to get Jah back on track. It seems to me he is struggling with confidence...likely the first time that has happened in a lone time.

Duke is talented enough to beat MSU with Jah being okay...they can not win a title unless Jah goes out to prove he is the best player in the country.

 

[chov1125]

Michigan State is a team that is going to be very physical, very disciplined and very confident if the game is close late....They are not the most talented team that we have faced this year, but in no way shape or form should they be taken lightly....They are going to want to slow the tempo down (although I have seen Trice leak out if the opportunity presents itself), play each offensive and defensive possession in the half-court and rely on their ability to make timely shots to beat us....From the games I have seen of them throughout this tournament their offense comes in spurts, but they also have the ability to go through droughts....They are going to make the most out of each of their possessions by not pulling the trigger on bad shots, but rather working for the right one....This is a game where we need to limit turnovers (exactly like we did against zags), work through Jah on offense and make the most of each good look we get....We are superior when you match up talent vs talent, but they are experienced and gritty and they will not give us this game.

 

[HuffyJB]

Originally posted by Tim1515:
I also agree it would be nice to get Jah back on track. It seems to me he is struggling with confidence...likely the first time that has happened in a lone time.

Duke is talented enough to beat MSU with Jah being okay...they can not win a title unless Jah goes out to prove he is the best player in the country.

In the last few games, he has had some trouble finding the ground between forcing and being assertive. It's understandable given his age, the pressure of the moment, and the attention he received. I am as guilty of anyone at forgetting he is still a freshman. I have no doubt this will be a point of emphasis this week with the coaches in the lead-up to the game.

 

[dbav]

I saw it on another website, but it's interesting to me that 3 of the 4 teams in the Champions Classic are now in the Final 4. That's pretty cool.

 

[madrussian]

jah is seeing a lot of defenses for the first time - no doubt. and he learns very quickly. he already figured out late in the game yesterday to turn and face up to these guys in certain situations as grant hill was saying.

but we need him to be efficient in the low post. i think a problem with this is that our offense has been way too "static" in getting him the ball. we slow down -- go in half court mode and distribute him the ball when everyone is kinda standing around looking at jah.

i think we need to have our guards get more going to the basket and utilize more motion in the offense- this will open up more room for jah to work.

 

[DukeDenver]

Originally posted by madrussian:
the mismatch in our favor is the inside game. okafer cannot be hesitant against these guys. msu has had trouble all year with tesms that play quality bigs. maryland, wisconsin duke etc all killed them inside.

they are not a good free throw shooting team.

but i am a bit concerned with the way jah was playing against utah and the zags. to me he seemed too hesitant when the shot was there. then he would get the ball in the high post and not get a quality shot. he will get banged around by 3 different players including dawson.he needs to be a bit "tougher" in the post in this one.

I agree. Jah needs to let the Alpha out. He needs to eat what Justise has been eating.

 

[OldasdirtDevil]

I'd like to see Jah score a little more, but at the same time he's drawing an incredible amount of attention. And if any team decides to slack off just a little...he'll make them pay.

I don't know if it was fatigue, or his ankle still bothering him, but he seemed like he was moving a little slower yesterday than the last game. On a couple of close-ups he looked winded. He could be hitting a little bit of a freshman wall...hope not.

OFC

 

[SpartanJD_rivals19842]

Hello Blue Devils!

I'll be here all week. Glad to see some chatter going.

I heard someone say Winslow will guard Valentine...if that's the case, Dawson will feast on the offensive glass.

On the flip side, I wonder if we are going to double Okafor leaving the shooters some room. My gut says we will defend Okafor mostly 1v1 and not let Duke have open perimeter shots all night but that situation could change obviously.

I am very pleased in how our bench has come along. True frosh Marvin Clark has stepped up and is a very good athlete and Forbes is a sniper off the bench (43% from 3 on the year). Costello is an ok big off the bench. Better than Plumlee imo.

Off top of my head MSUs keys will be limiting turnovers (this killed us vs Ville and if we are casual with ball vs Duke we wont win) and defending while not fouling (mostly inside). If Costello and Schilling get in foul trouble our next big is a 6'7 walk on.

If we limit those two things I think we will make it a good game.

 

[Laettner]

Saw MSU twice is person, Valetine & Dawson are beasts. Amile will have to play key role b/c Jones does not match up with their size.

Glad we are playing a program I completely respect and like. This will be a battle. K has owned Izzo so that adds extra motivation for MSU.

 

[tilador]

good luck against the msu. hopefully you can make the whole wildcat nation cry! ofc

This post was edited on 3/30 2:49 PM by tilador

 

[SpartanHaze]

There is no doubt that Duke has the more talented team and has had a better season, already having beat us once. That said, I've expected my Spartans to go down by now however they keep showing up and playing their game, seemingly unfazed by the team that was favored. I think their confidence is only growing and there is a chance that we will play you guys very tough and be in position late to pull off the upset. But there's clearly no denying K's dominance of Izzo. It's undeniable and something that should provide you guys a sense of comfort heading into this game.

Trice, Valentine and Dawson are who you guys need to worry about. Sure there are guys that could be unsung hero's for MSU to win, but our team comes and goes with these 3 guys. MSU has won with 2 of 3 showing up, but I think they need all 3 to be very good to beat Duke. When Dawson is playing with passion and energy, he's an incredible player. He doesn't always play that way though.

 

[dbav]

Originally posted by SpartanHaze:
There is no doubt that Duke has the more talented team and has had a better season, already having beat us once. That said, I've expected my Spartans to go down by now however they keep showing up and playing their game, seemingly unfazed by the team that was favored. I think their confidence is only growing and there is a chance that we will play you guys very tough and be in position late to pull off the upset. But there's clearly no denying K's dominance of Izzo. It's undeniable and something that should provide you guys a sense of comfort heading into this game.

Trice, Valentine and Dawson are who you guys need to worry about. Sure there are guys that could be unsung hero's for MSU to win, but our team comes and goes with these 3 guys. MSU has won with 2 of 3 showing up, but I think they need all 3 to be very good to beat Duke. When Dawson is playing with passion and energy, he's an incredible player. He doesn't always play that way though.

Honestly, I don't think there's a chance, I think it's a certainty. One thing I love about Izzo's teams is they always play their best late in the season. You have a very dynamic backcourt and some very good athletes up front.

I actually think these teams match up pretty well because we both use somewhat undersized lineups. Should be a fun game to watch.

 

[SpartanJD_rivals19842]

Originally posted by dbav:

Originally posted by SpartanHaze:
There is no doubt that Duke has the more talented team and has had a better season, already having beat us once. That said, I've expected my Spartans to go down by now however they keep showing up and playing their game, seemingly unfazed by the team that was favored. I think their confidence is only growing and there is a chance that we will play you guys very tough and be in position late to pull off the upset. But there's clearly no denying K's dominance of Izzo. It's undeniable and something that should provide you guys a sense of comfort heading into this game.

Trice, Valentine and Dawson are who you guys need to worry about. Sure there are guys that could be unsung hero's for MSU to win, but our team comes and goes with these 3 guys. MSU has won with 2 of 3 showing up, but I think they need all 3 to be very good to beat Duke. When Dawson is playing with passion and energy, he's an incredible player. He doesn't always play that way though.

Honestly, I don't think there's a chance, I think it's a certainty. One thing I love about Izzo's teams is they always play their best late in the season. You have a very dynamic backcourt and some very good athletes up front.

I actually think these teams match up pretty well because we both use somewhat undersized lineups. Should be a fun game to watch.

One difference is that Forbes (shoots 43% from 3) had a broken hand the first time we played you. He is a top shelf weapon off the bench. Will need him to hit multiple threes off the bench like he did vs Ville.

 

[dbav]

Originally posted by SpartanJD:

Originally posted by dbav:

Originally posted by SpartanHaze:
There is no doubt that Duke has the more talented team and has had a better season, already having beat us once. That said, I've expected my Spartans to go down by now however they keep showing up and playing their game, seemingly unfazed by the team that was favored. I think their confidence is only growing and there is a chance that we will play you guys very tough and be in position late to pull off the upset. But there's clearly no denying K's dominance of Izzo. It's undeniable and something that should provide you guys a sense of comfort heading into this game.

Trice, Valentine and Dawson are who you guys need to worry about. Sure there are guys that could be unsung hero's for MSU to win, but our team comes and goes with these 3 guys. MSU has won with 2 of 3 showing up, but I think they need all 3 to be very good to beat Duke. When Dawson is playing with passion and energy, he's an incredible player. He doesn't always play that way though.

Honestly, I don't think there's a chance, I think it's a certainty. One thing I love about Izzo's teams is they always play their best late in the season. You have a very dynamic backcourt and some very good athletes up front.

I actually think these teams match up pretty well because we both use somewhat undersized lineups. Should be a fun game to watch.

One difference is that Forbes (shoots 43% from 3) had a broken hand the first time we played you. He is a top shelf weapon off the bench. Will need him to hit multiple threes off the bench like he did vs Ville.

Very true. At the same time, Allen was not much of a factor at that time, and Matt Jones was not getting the minutes and big shots he is now. I think that's what makes this fun. As others have said, these teams have come a long way from the 3rd game of the season and it will be interesting because it could be a very different game than before.

 

[HuffyJB]

I think, in general, you can just throw out the November match-up as a real point of reference. It was so long ago and these teams have grown and changed so much since then.

 

[Showenuff]

I love ol Izzo. And yes, MSU is a lot better than when we beat them last....but so are we. We beat them with Freshmen last time. We are much more now. I like the hidden factors. Heart. God these kids have it. Poise. The most amazing poise for freshmen I have ever witnessed. Coaching. Yep, Izzo is damn good, K , damn better. Family. Lots of teams become great friends and some just like family, but our group this year truly doesn't want to let his brothers down. They are as tight knit of a group as we have ever had here.

 

[skysdad]

It's the final four and MSU has a HOF coach. They have a really good team and could easily beat us and win the whole thing but this is true for all four teams remaining. This will be the biggest game we will have played this tear. We are playing the best we have played all year but so is MSU. Should be a great game and I'm having a little trouble waiting for game time to get here. I'm ready to go right now. OFC

 

[Alaskan_Assassin_21]

Sorry fellas but this MSU team is certainty not *very good*. They are very well coached and focused/motlivated. But I question their talent level in this Final Four.

Wisky & UK are very good and possibly great teams. Look, you can't argue with all of Izzo's Final Four appearances but the team is one of the biggest disappointments in Big games.

Remember 2009 Title Game versus UNC? They did not belong on the same court

 

[madrussian]

Every team is different each time around. What happened in 2009 can't be generalized to today.

Izzo is a master motivator, no doubt. His teams play brutal schedules as he gets them ready for the ncaa's. He does more with less. I worked in Lansing in the past. I have met Tom and he is a great guy. He is my second favorite coach.

This game will come down to who can impose their will, their tempo, their style of play.

MSU will try to get Duke to settle for jump shots. So they can feast on the boards and turn misses into points. Sparty will clamp don defensively and try to force TO's. Defensively Jah will be getting bumped and worn down by multiple tough defenders.

 

[Freelander777]

From an outsider's perspective, I do not think Duke will have any problems whatsoever taking out Michigan State. I could be wrong, but that's just my gut feeling. They went into overtime with a fair Louisville team, and I don't think they can hang with Duke.

 

[Tim1515]

My honest opinion is that Duke is the 3rd best team left...maybe tied for 2nd with Wisc. The reason I put Wisc slightly ahead is that I think they have the best shot of the remaining 3 to beat Kentucky. They just match up better then we do.

Along these lines...I think MSU is a distant 4th. The fact they are in the final four says a ton about Izzo (again) and these kids that keep fighting.

That isn't to say MSU can't beat Duke...they absolutely can and having this extra time to prepare could really help them form a successful gameplan.

 

[madrussian]

well sparty can beat duke. no doubt. they can do it by playing better and tougher defense and frustrating our freshman and getting them to make mistakes.

if however we play our game, execute properly and bring energy then we will win.

 

[DiehardDukeFan4Life]

I just saw on ESPN that Coach K and Coach Izzo have coached combined 176 NCAAT games for the most in a matchup in NCAAT history.

 

[2 skerz 3_rivals208847]

Originally posted by Tim1515:
My honest opinion is that Duke is the 3rd best team left...maybe tied for 2nd with Wisc. The reason I put Wisc slightly ahead is that I think they have the best shot of the remaining 3 to beat Kentucky. They just match up better then we do.

Along these lines...I think MSU is a distant 4th. The fact they are in the final four says a ton about Izzo (again) and these kids that keep fighting.

That isn't to say MSU can't beat Duke...they absolutely can and having this extra time to prepare could really help them form a successful gameplan.

So un-biased that you are biased against Duke. We already beat Wiscy at their place (one of the toughest places to win in the country) and that was before our guys grew up. How can you possibly rationalized that thought???

 

[Tim1515]

Originally posted by 2 skerz 3:

Originally posted by Tim1515:
My honest opinion is that Duke is the 3rd best team left...maybe tied for 2nd with Wisc. The reason I put Wisc slightly ahead is that I think they have the best shot of the remaining 3 to beat Kentucky. They just match up better then we do.

Along these lines...I think MSU is a distant 4th. The fact they are in the final four says a ton about Izzo (again) and these kids that keep fighting.

That isn't to say MSU can't beat Duke...they absolutely can and having this extra time to prepare could really help them form a successful gameplan.

So un-biased that you are biased against Duke. We already beat Wiscy at their place (one of the toughest places to win in the country) and that was before our guys grew up. How can you possibly rationalized that thought???

Good point. Miami beat us by 16 at our place. Good thing they aren't in the tournament I guess.

If you read the next sentence i explain my thought process.

Anyone that thinks we are guaranteed a win over Wisc if we play them again just because we won the first matchup hasn't be watching basketball long enough. It wouldn't be surprised if Wisconsin would rather see Duke over MSU for a similar reason.



This post was edited on 3/31 6:17 PM by Tim1515

This post was edited on 3/31 6:31 PM by Tim1515

 

[dbav]

One thing is for sure: Saturday can't get here soon enough.

This post was edited on 4/1 3:34 AM by dbav

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

Originally posted by Tim1515:

Originally posted by 2 skerz 3:

Originally posted by Tim1515:
My honest opinion is that Duke is the 3rd best team left...maybe tied for 2nd with Wisc. The reason I put Wisc slightly ahead is that I think they have the best shot of the remaining 3 to beat Kentucky. They just match up better then we do.

Along these lines...I think MSU is a distant 4th. The fact they are in the final four says a ton about Izzo (again) and these kids that keep fighting.

That isn't to say MSU can't beat Duke...they absolutely can and having this extra time to prepare could really help them form a successful gameplan.

So un-biased that you are biased against Duke. We already beat Wiscy at their place (one of the toughest places to win in the country) and that was before our guys grew up. How can you possibly rationalized that thought???

Good point. Miami beat us by 16 at our place. Good thing they aren't in the tournament I guess.

If you read the next sentence i explain my thought process.

Anyone that thinks we are guaranteed a win over Wisc if we play them again just because we won the first matchup hasn't be watching basketball long enough. It wouldn't be surprised if Wisconsin would rather see Duke over MSU for a similar reason.



This post was edited on 3/31 6:17 PM by Tim1515

This post was edited on 3/31 6:31 PM by Tim1515

I agree with this.

Wisconsin has two revenge games on their plate. UK, who brutally knocked them out of the FF last year. And us, who took it to them at their place in December. I don't like teams having extra motivation as much as I don't like my team to be complacent because we already beat this team. Look at what happened with the WVU dude said Kentucky would be 36-1. Great teams and great players use that extra motivation to their benefit.

 

[Laettner]

Originally posted by dbav:
One thing is for sure: Saturday can't get here soon enough.

This post was edited on 4/1 3:34 AM by dbav

I'm enjoying this week after stressing about making Final Four since November. Tomorrow I'll start foucsing on game strategies.

 

[Tim1515]

For me it isn't just the revenge thing. When you are dealing with two talented teams...the winner of the first game is likely to approach the game with a similar gameplan because it worked. The loser is more likely to adjust based on what didn't work. IMO that generally gives the loser an edge.

 

[aah555]

Originally posted by Tim1515:
For me it isn't just the revenge thing. When you are dealing with two talented teams...the winner of the first game is likely to approach the game with a similar gameplan because it worked. The loser is more likely to adjust based on what didn't work. IMO that generally gives the loser an edge.

Eh. I think that is very overblown. I'm certain K is smart enough to know that MSU today is not the same as MSU before.

The fact that there's a different result in game 2 probably has less to do with overconfidence / revenge, and more to do with random volatility -- i.e., the fact that we beat MSU once doesn't mean we're head and shoulders better than them; just that we outplayed them on a given night. If anything, I think the intensity of our young guys (Jah / Winslow particularly) is the only thing I'm really concerned about.

MSU's a good team that is very capable of beating us -- particularly considering that we're going to face a very, very, very hostile crowd where UK, Wisconsin, and MSU will all be rooting hard against us (UK b/c of general hatred and Wisconsin for the easier matchup).

With that said, it's not an opponent that poses any particularly difficult matchup issues for us. The challenges for us will be boxing out, getting back in transition, and minimizing turnovers. All of these are items that we can largely control. As others have said, I think Gonzaga was a far trickier opponent for us than MSU b/c they had a 5 who could play Okafor one-on-one, two 4s (Sabonis / Wiltjer) who could post Winslow-up and in the case of Sabonis, beat Okafor with quickness, and a number of excellent shooters who could get hot at any moment. MSU has its own relative strengths (toughness, intelligence, effort, etc.), but we should be able to handle those advantages if play well.

This post was edited on 4/1 12:45 PM by aah555

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

There is also a sense of complacency with the winner of the first game.

 

[Dukesince90]

Dave, when you're an athlete and competing in the Final Four there is no complacency.