So Tom Brady is the GOAT, right?
- Thread starter YourPublicEnemy
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well, that's true but it's also true that he's two of the biggest choke jobs in American sports history away from being 3-4. Then the narrative is completely different - lost his last 4 Super Bowls, basically John Elway in reverse.
Alright, lmfao.. a few things:
1. Lets not pretend that this still isn't Belichick as the mastermind.
2. For as unlucky as the two Giants superbowls may have been for the Pats, they just as much lucked out with Seattle not running the ball and Atlanta totally shitting their pants. It's equal, 2-2. Not to mention, cheating during the entire early run of their superbowls.
1. Lets not pretend that this still isn't Belichick as the mastermind.
2. For as unlucky as the two Giants superbowls may have been for the Pats, they just as much lucked out with Seattle not running the ball and Atlanta totally shitting their pants. It's equal, 2-2. Not to mention, cheating during the entire early run of their superbowls.
I've said that they're tied with each other and Bill is the greatest coach of all-time but he still doesn't play the game. Someone has to make the throws and run the team on the field and that's not Bill.
The Seahawks are the ones I'd give him as being total luck (then again they got in that scoring spot from an insane catch) but last night's game spoke more about the Pats than the Falcons to me. The Pats had to be perfect on every drive just to get to overtime. I mean, who in their right mind thought when New England settled for that field goal to make it 28-12, that the Pats defense could hold them and the offense not only had to score two touchdowns but also two two-point conversions?
That's legendary.
I saw last night that Brady has the record for most postseason game-winning drives (10). That's nuts.
I'm a huge Peyton Manning and Brett Favre fan but those guys choked many times unlike Brady when it came to the postseason.
As for cheating, I hated the Patriots back then but don't put much stock into that stuff. Seeing game tapes is similar to seeing a walk through and at the end of the day, you still have to execute the plays.
Aside from a mental toughness that might be unrivaled in the history of sports.. what did Brady do physically, that impressed you last night? He overthrew plenty of receivers, and while some receivers had dropped passes, others made spectacular catches they had no business making. His arm was shaky, his pocket presence was OK, and he wasn't very mobile.
The reason this is important is that BB has molded the entire team around him and his inabilities. Here's what Brady has to do: Hike the ball, wait 2 seconds max, dump it off to some wide-open receiver in some dink-and-dunk play. It preserves his arm, it shortens his time in the pocket, keeps him upright, preserves his legs, and it's an offense that is almost unstoppable.
That's ALL BB. Plenty of QBs can thrive in that system (But Brady's mental toughness takes it over the top). While BB doesn't touch the ball, he has his hands in BOTH sides of the game, and is the GM to boot.
Personally, it's not a contest and never will be until I see Brady have to play without BB (we've seen it the other way a few times with great success).. Bill is that dude. HE'S the GOAT for me.
The reason this is important is that BB has molded the entire team around him and his inabilities. Here's what Brady has to do: Hike the ball, wait 2 seconds max, dump it off to some wide-open receiver in some dink-and-dunk play. It preserves his arm, it shortens his time in the pocket, keeps him upright, preserves his legs, and it's an offense that is almost unstoppable.
That's ALL BB. Plenty of QBs can thrive in that system (But Brady's mental toughness takes it over the top). While BB doesn't touch the ball, he has his hands in BOTH sides of the game, and is the GM to boot.
Personally, it's not a contest and never will be until I see Brady have to play without BB (we've seen it the other way a few times with great success).. Bill is that dude. HE'S the GOAT for me.
Granted, I guess both are GOATs now. But I will always wonder what BB could do with Rodgers or a QB who can throw accurate short distances AND be mobile (Could the Pats be stopped with Cam Newton?). BB >>>> Brady.
Very true. The Seahawks and Falcons basically handed Tom his last 2 SBs. If both of those teams just run the ball, Tom loses both.
Tom is still the greatest ever though IMO. Whats scary is he still probably has another 2-3 years in him, he hasn't really slowed down much at all.
"handed him two Super Bowls"....you have to get to the Super Bowl for that to even happen and he's been to more than anyone else. When you're in that many, guess what? Sometimes the luck goes your way. To argue otherwise is kind of silly and rhetorical.
^The point was that the original poster said "If it weren't for lucky Giants catches.." or something or other. Patriots had plenty of luck go their way, if not more.
Also, if just one of the Jets/Bill/Miami could be a threat in the last 15 years, walking to the superbowl might seem impressive. 5-6 guaranteed wins, and the division every year.. which more often than not equates to the #1 seed, a Bye, Homefield, and playing the worst remaining team. I don't think it's as difficult as people think, to go to the superbowl, only needing to win two games at home.
The year the Pats had the 2nd seed? No HF and bounced by Denver.
That #1 seed (and even #2 seed) are huge.
Also, if just one of the Jets/Bill/Miami could be a threat in the last 15 years, walking to the superbowl might seem impressive. 5-6 guaranteed wins, and the division every year.. which more often than not equates to the #1 seed, a Bye, Homefield, and playing the worst remaining team. I don't think it's as difficult as people think, to go to the superbowl, only needing to win two games at home.
The year the Pats had the 2nd seed? No HF and bounced by Denver.
That #1 seed (and even #2 seed) are huge.
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In a 15-year span, the AFC East was the least competitive division. SUre, the Pats helped cause that, they were better.. but the other three teams could never get out of mediocrity. Pats or no Pats, those three teams weren't making the playoffs very often. (I think 5 combined appearances in 45 possible playoffs.. last I looked).
Bill Belichick was a coach with a losing record before that fateful day in Sept. of 2001 changed his fortunes.
QB and coach go together. Brady doesn't accomplish much of anything w/o Belichek, and Belichek would not have been as succesful without an accurate and smart QB to run his system.
Montana/Walsh
Starr/Lombardi
Bradshaw/Noll
Brady/Belichek
Those 4 pairings share a LOT in common.
QB's with natural leadership abilities, high football IQ's, and a ridiculous accuracy, that allowed them to always find the underbelly of coverages and exploit it like a surgeon.
Coaches that are cerebral but also pretty feared in the locker room. Football minds that are frankly, pretty far above their peers.
It's interesting that the 4 coaches are divided in their 'expertise'. Lombardi and Walsh were considered offensive gurus. And Noll and Belichek came up as defensive coordinators.
I guess if that's the list, and I consider it the list of the greatest 'champion' QB's of the TV era then I'd rank them:
Brady
Starr
Montana
Bradshaw
I'd consider every Isingle one of them very average in arm strength and athleticism.
I guess the point is: Find a HOF coach and an accurate/smart QB that he can work with...
Montana/Walsh
Starr/Lombardi
Bradshaw/Noll
Brady/Belichek
Those 4 pairings share a LOT in common.
QB's with natural leadership abilities, high football IQ's, and a ridiculous accuracy, that allowed them to always find the underbelly of coverages and exploit it like a surgeon.
Coaches that are cerebral but also pretty feared in the locker room. Football minds that are frankly, pretty far above their peers.
It's interesting that the 4 coaches are divided in their 'expertise'. Lombardi and Walsh were considered offensive gurus. And Noll and Belichek came up as defensive coordinators.
I guess if that's the list, and I consider it the list of the greatest 'champion' QB's of the TV era then I'd rank them:
Brady
Starr
Montana
Bradshaw
I'd consider every Isingle one of them very average in arm strength and athleticism.
I guess the point is: Find a HOF coach and an accurate/smart QB that he can work with...
Haven't read through the thread. Don't see 3 pages worth of debate.
Yea, he's GOAT. Even if someone doesn't believe that it makes no matter.
He's the mutha ****** GOAT. And history will show it.
Have to admit it not huge on the NFL since St. Louis doesn't have a franchise but I've always been a pats fan. Not since Brady so please on the bandwagon. I hated Brady when he took Bledsoe's spot. One of my favorites growing up.
Yea, he's GOAT. Even if someone doesn't believe that it makes no matter.
He's the mutha ****** GOAT. And history will show it.
Have to admit it not huge on the NFL since St. Louis doesn't have a franchise but I've always been a pats fan. Not since Brady so please on the bandwagon. I hated Brady when he took Bledsoe's spot. One of my favorites growing up.
Being a Browns fan do you know how much it pains me to see Bilicheck have the career he is having in New England? It's bad when not even the best coach in the modern era can save your franchise from the *******.
Don't you even dare..
1. Brady only exists because of Mo Lewis on the Jets ending Bledsoe's season. They won the Superbowl that year and Brady was born.
2. Belichick was the Jets head coach after the Parcels fiasco, and stepped down, only to go to the New England Patriots.
So while The Browns have had to deal with decades of ineptitude, and that sucks, the Jets directly caused the Brady/Belichick nightmare that we all have to deal with, but no one has to deal with more than the Jets, to see our rival own the league for 15 years because of this.
1. Brady only exists because of Mo Lewis on the Jets ending Bledsoe's season. They won the Superbowl that year and Brady was born.
2. Belichick was the Jets head coach after the Parcels fiasco, and stepped down, only to go to the New England Patriots.
So while The Browns have had to deal with decades of ineptitude, and that sucks, the Jets directly caused the Brady/Belichick nightmare that we all have to deal with, but no one has to deal with more than the Jets, to see our rival own the league for 15 years because of this.
If you don't think he is the GOAT, you have an unhealthy bias/hate. He just won the Super Bowl with a receiving corp that included: a former college QB, a lacrosse player who played one season of FCS football, a rookie, and a backup tight end. That is just ridiculous.
And for the person who said he could easily be 3-4 in Super Bowls ... he could be 7-0 too. But he isn't. He is 5-2 which is damn impressive.
And the fact he taped a post Super Bowl commercial that aired in Boston, referencing his "new fifth ring" just makes him that much more of a boss (http://www.mediaite.com/online/tom-...wing-fifth-super-bowl-ring-before-sundays-win). He backs it up.
And for the person who said he could easily be 3-4 in Super Bowls ... he could be 7-0 too. But he isn't. He is 5-2 which is damn impressive.
And the fact he taped a post Super Bowl commercial that aired in Boston, referencing his "new fifth ring" just makes him that much more of a boss (http://www.mediaite.com/online/tom-...wing-fifth-super-bowl-ring-before-sundays-win). He backs it up.
I watched a documentary on Brady the other night. Pretty fascinating, really.
The guy didn't even play football until he was a sophomore in high school because he didn't see the field his freshman year as the backup QB and only got the job his sophomore year cause the other kid quit.
Saw his combine and read the scouting reports and you'd never have known this guy was going to be a gem but looked good in training camp and was kept on as a fourth string QB. Then worked his way up to the second spot.
The guy didn't even play football until he was a sophomore in high school because he didn't see the field his freshman year as the backup QB and only got the job his sophomore year cause the other kid quit.
Saw his combine and read the scouting reports and you'd never have known this guy was going to be a gem but looked good in training camp and was kept on as a fourth string QB. Then worked his way up to the second spot.
I'm so tired of people acting like these receivers aren't PERFECT for what BB is running. They are super physical, can rarely be taken off a route, rarely drop a pass, no antics, no mistakes. No they aren't Julio Jones' types, deep threat Clydesdales. They are bulldogs.. stop trying to compare them to the wideouts you grew up watching.
Also, why is it OK to say his receivers sucks because they was drafted low, or played another sport, or was over-looked. Brady was overlooked, why is he a different story? That's contradictory.
That's just not a fair comparison Lineski. Maybe they're perfect for the system, but that's on the GM/Coach and it works. If anyone honestly thinks you could get close to the same results with any but maybe 3-4 different QBs in the same era, that's patently false. Maybe Rodgers, Brees, Rothlisberger, Luck...maybe Smith. System or not it works and he's a beast.
Anyone that mentions Montana is contradicting themselves with the system offense because he was the beginning of the West Coast Offense. Bradshaw was legit with 4 out of 6 years with rings and I think back to back twice. I'd bet they weren't using in helmet play calls then either, but I'm not positive.
Marino couldn't close.
Aikman won with the greatest collection of talent in his era.
Jim Kelly was a horse but couldn't close either obviously.
Favre was the ultimate backyard qb and IMO the most fun to ever watch, but was so much of that wing it type it ended up killing him too many times.
Elway was great but it took to the end of his career and a serious talent pool to finally pull it off, twice.
Young was amazing and his scrambling ability sets him apart but just not in the conversation for best ever.
Manning, now that's an argument as the greatest actual QB who ran the show, but he didn't win enough even with the many opportunities he had and quite a few knockouts by Brady himself. And let's be honest, his last SB win was most certainly on the back of a nasty defense.
Unitas, great but it's a completely different game now and really not comparable. We can add Otto into this category as well.
Rodgers, time will tell but it's most certain he won't catch Brady in SBs, but he can carry a **** team more than any other QB in the league today. He's a one man wrecking crew.
My opinion of course and rebuttals are welcome.
Anyone that mentions Montana is contradicting themselves with the system offense because he was the beginning of the West Coast Offense. Bradshaw was legit with 4 out of 6 years with rings and I think back to back twice. I'd bet they weren't using in helmet play calls then either, but I'm not positive.
Marino couldn't close.
Aikman won with the greatest collection of talent in his era.
Jim Kelly was a horse but couldn't close either obviously.
Favre was the ultimate backyard qb and IMO the most fun to ever watch, but was so much of that wing it type it ended up killing him too many times.
Elway was great but it took to the end of his career and a serious talent pool to finally pull it off, twice.
Young was amazing and his scrambling ability sets him apart but just not in the conversation for best ever.
Manning, now that's an argument as the greatest actual QB who ran the show, but he didn't win enough even with the many opportunities he had and quite a few knockouts by Brady himself. And let's be honest, his last SB win was most certainly on the back of a nasty defense.
Unitas, great but it's a completely different game now and really not comparable. We can add Otto into this category as well.
Rodgers, time will tell but it's most certain he won't catch Brady in SBs, but he can carry a **** team more than any other QB in the league today. He's a one man wrecking crew.
My opinion of course and rebuttals are welcome.
You don't think another 10 QBs, from THIS year couldn't work in the Patriots system? I mean, we all laugh how they get nobodies to play well.. Tom was a nobody (for his whole life, with the article someone shared above).. Why are there different rules for Brady? Is it possible, he's just like the other 22 starters.. a guy who works in the system and the culture, and really wouldn't succeed anywhere else?
It's an offense that's perfect for the QB and extending his longevity. SHort quick throws, dump the ball quick, majority of NFL defenses can't stop it.
I'd love to see Scam Newton as the QB for the Pats.. He's not (and probably never will be) as mentally tough as Brady.. but that offense would be bonkers. It'd be kinda like watching Oregon play play a crappy Washington State school..
It's an offense that's perfect for the QB and extending his longevity. SHort quick throws, dump the ball quick, majority of NFL defenses can't stop it.
I'd love to see Scam Newton as the QB for the Pats.. He's not (and probably never will be) as mentally tough as Brady.. but that offense would be bonkers. It'd be kinda like watching Oregon play play a crappy Washington State school..
SB argument means close to nothing for me. Patriots had a top5 defense every year they won, some years, like this one, they were the #1 defense. You're only as good as what's around you.
I will agree, that if you can't win just ONE ring, that probably excludes you. But I'll never care how many more rings Brady has over Rodgers. Because at the end of the day, if you pluck Brady off the Pats and put him on Green Bay .. llololol. Dude wouldn't have even been in the league for his last two superbowls. He'd be retired just like Manning.
I will agree, that if you can't win just ONE ring, that probably excludes you. But I'll never care how many more rings Brady has over Rodgers. Because at the end of the day, if you pluck Brady off the Pats and put him on Green Bay .. llololol. Dude wouldn't have even been in the league for his last two superbowls. He'd be retired just like Manning.
Pretty stupid argument, putting Brady on GB instead of NE. If there's one thing that separates Brady from his peers is his drive, he's relentless in his pursuit of greatness. I love ARod, but maybe dude should put away the TV scripts and work a little more on his game if he wants to be compared to TB.
You should watch The Brady 6 show. On there, BB comments that theyonly thing stopping them from naming TB the starter over Bledsoe was experience, that Brady had the better PS. Bledoe's injury just made the decision easier for them.
Tom Brady is the GOAT to play QB in the NFL.
You should watch The Brady 6 show. On there, BB comments that theyonly thing stopping them from naming TB the starter over Bledsoe was experience, that Brady had the better PS. Bledoe's injury just made the decision easier for them.
Tom Brady is the GOAT to play QB in the NFL.
It's not a stupid argument at all. Brady doesn't have the arm to get to a guy like Randal Cobb night in and night out. He's getting sacked that much more while he waits an extra second or two for the deep ball.
He factors in only like 25% of the game, 0% on on the coaching and 0% in the front office.
It's Bill Belichick and everyone else. I'm not even sure how someone can debate this. He puts everything in place for Brady.
Please please please please please let Bill retire so we can see what Brady does without him.