He recruits all the top 5 stars, they literally want nothing to do with him.
So . . . Your Opinion on the One & Done?
- Thread starter Random UK Fan
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He recruits all the top 5 stars, they literally want nothing to do with him.
Yes, I did enjoy the 15 team. B/c they played as a team. And they had Quinn Cook and Grayson Allen and Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones - all of whom contributed significantly to the title run but were not OAD.
The issue with the 06 team was not the 2 seniors. It was that that was all they had.
But, you miss the point. The observation was that it's not great watching OAD players if they are not likely to get to the FF and in serious competition for the title. I loved the '04 and the 99 teams (as well as '86-90 teams) even though they didn't win but they were super competitive. I'd rather see that than watch 3-4-5 OAD players play sloppy, not smart basketball, and be knocked out before the FF.
You need a mixture of top level talent (which is likely OAD) and quality 2nd, 3rd, 4th year players who contribute (either as starters or off the bench). And, to do that, the non OAD players have to get PT and be developed.
you might be right. I personally feel they didn’t want anything to do with the University because of the looming sanctions that was hanging over the program. I believe Duke benefited from that. There have been some players at Duke that were locks at UNC if not for the cloud hanging over their program.
I don't like Roy personally, but he has done well to keep hold of players who were potential OAD players, but then had bad freshmen years, and actually developed their games.
Too many kids have gone OAD or left early from Duke - chasing the short term money - when several should probably not have left so early.
Agree 100% and unfortunately that will happen this year as well. I really feel that RJ and Zion are the only ones ready but there will be more.
And I get that, I really do....but we're not talking about a team here who missed the boat by miles and miles. Some of your posts make it sound as though this team wasn't close, when in reality, it was a possession or two away. This team had imperfections, but they checked a lot of boxes, too. I just think people get carried away sometimes with evaluations.
I’m confused by this post. Are you suggesting that Roy has done a good job coaching his players poorly so they don’t play well and stick around? Or are you suggesting that Roy does well convincing his players not to leave? Whatever the answer I am not sure what you want K to do. Is he being criticized now for landing the best players, letting them succeed in their freshman year and then not convincing them to stay?
I think we both agree that we enjoy winning titles and are disappointed when we don't win titles.
I don’t put much stock in this or any other year’s season being determined by the OAD rule. The tourney is a fickle beast, the best team RARELY wins. Duke was the best team in college B-ball this year and I loved watching them. 1999 and 2011 we were easily the best teams and we had plenty of stellar senior leadership. 2010 was an inch or two away from ending in heartbreak for us. If Hayward’s shot goes in are we still talking about Zoubek on this board? I too miss the days of Shane Battier and Jay Williams but Jay “Zion should sit out the rest of the season and protect his draft stock” himself has clearly shown that if he played in today’s college game he would not have been sticking around 3 years.
You have a point, especially if success in the tournament is all that is important to you. The point I was trying, but obviously failed, to make with you is that I would find it easier to back teams that are built the way Izzo does it, and K used to do it, than teams of OAD's that are hired out of high school and never really become teams. In a number of those years, MSU started off in a way which made making the NCAA's improbable; yet, by the end of the year, they were a tournament team.
I just think this is a slippery-slope way of looking at things and I tried making the point last night in another thread, as well.
That's exactly how our teams were built from 2005 to 2014. We made one Final Four, won one national championship and played in two Elite Eight's total. Now...there's an anomaly or two in there. In 2006 we just got upset, and in 2011 we knew what went down with Kyrie. But, some of those teams just weren't very good. A lot of people complained loudly about it.
In the end....it comes down to wins and losses. The last two years have been painful in that regard. I mean, think for a second how close we were to two Final Fours. One or two possessions in each game is the difference. What is the narrative if they're both wins? Or just one of them? Is it K's fault Trevon jumped a passing lane, Grayson rimmed one out or R.J. missed two free throws? Sure, we can argue we were too talented to be in those situations, but we're just a couple plays away from being in two consecutive last weekends.
Also, until this year, Izzo hasn't been out of the first weekend since 2015 and had one NCAAT win, including a loss to a 15-seed. I guess the point I'm making is that the grass isn't always greener.
I've always hated it. Wish it had never started. Let the top players declare out of high school for the NBA. They will either get drafted and go straight into the league, go to the G league ( NBA's ) minor league, or go play overseas. If they want to play college ball it must be 3 years just like baseball and football. It would still be college basketball. The best programs would still get the best players and we as fans would love it. OFC
Sign me up for this, unless the rules don’t change, then I still want to bring in the top talent
This argument is stupid. It’s all about the journey, it’s not about how you recruited, that’s ******** . We could have made two fts and won a ship this season. Don’t tell me the reason we lost is due to one and done. What about Carolina? Everybody was saying they were the best team in the nation, super fast, had experienced older players, better shooters. Why the hell didn’t they win it all? Because it’s never the same, anything can happen, someone played tougher, hit that shot, wanted it more. You need skill, luck , and a lot of things to come together to win this tournament. You can’t RECRUIT a victory. I hate this damn thread at the end of every season that we don’t win it all.
Just like I said, if your only priority is getting to the NCAA, you are unquestionably correct. I you like to experience the process of team building and really get to know players who are fully invested in the program, then, to me, I like the Izzo and Bennett paths, though they may not always be the "greenest"ones.
Sooner or later, you will get it. No one is saying OAD is why we lost. It was unquestionably the reason we got as far as we did. The argument is not about the best way to get there. It is about what types of teams are easiest for some of us to feel a lot closer to and invested in. Would I have enjoyed this team winning the NC more than, or even just as much as, the 2010 team? Hell, no. Read this:https://www.theringer.com/march-madness/2019/4/11829052/duke-coach-k-one-and-done-failure.
OFC
This UNC team was put together the way that many on here are clamoring for - a mix of one-and-dones (White and Little) and skilled veterans (Maye, Johnson, Williams, etc.). And they went out before Duke. The NCAA Tournament is tough and anything can happen. There is no formula.
You are right, this thread pops up every year. I know personally I always want the best players - as long as they are invested, and no one could argue this year's team wasn't - and I'll take my chances.
Being it’s Duke, then with the rightful buzz added by Zion, Duke received even more attention than normal. We love it when we’re winning, but soon as a loss happens, the excuses from our fans tries to offset the hysteria from everyone not a fan of Duke.
We just weren’t as good as we thought. Everyone not named Zion had some major flaws.
Still a very good team, and fun to watch, but the ending has us all a little down.
We just weren’t as good as we thought. Everyone not named Zion had some major flaws.
Still a very good team, and fun to watch, but the ending has us all a little down.
In the 80 years the tournament has been played, Coach K has won a little over 6% of the national championships. In the 38 years he’s been coaching he’s won a little over 13% of the national championships. The only coach with a higher percentage in any time frame is Sam Gilbert.
Duke is not going to win it all a large majority of the time. Even when they have the most talent and the best coach. It’s extremely difficult to win 6 games in a row in March/April. Should Duke have made the F4? Yes, but no one should be too shocked or upset that they’re going to end up a top 8 team instead of a top 4 team.
Duke is not going to win it all a large majority of the time. Even when they have the most talent and the best coach. It’s extremely difficult to win 6 games in a row in March/April. Should Duke have made the F4? Yes, but no one should be too shocked or upset that they’re going to end up a top 8 team instead of a top 4 team.
Once teams get to The Elite 8, it’s a coin flip in regards to who advances to the Final Four (if you get to the elite 8 then you are doing well). I find it mind boggling that some people miss the 2005-2014 seasons with a few exceptions (2010, 2011, and 2013).
2005: JJ, Williams, Dockery, Melchionni were juniors along with Seniors, Ewing and Randolph. Duke was a 1 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to MSU.
2006: Duke was a favorite to win the title with Seniors JJ, Williams, Dockery, and Melcionni, sophomore DeMarcus Nelson, and freshmen Paulus and McRoberts. Duke lost in the sweet 16 to LSU.
2007: Young Duke squad with Nelson as a junior, Paulus and McRoberts sophs, and Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, and Henderson as Freshmen. This team was one of duke’s Worst defensive teams along with the 2013-2014 team. Unc swept this duke team and duke lost to vcu in the first round of the tournament. Unc gets to the elite 8.
2008: Nelson as a senior, Paulus as a junior, scheyer, Henderson, zoubek, and Thomas as sophomores, and smith, singler, and king as freshmen. Duke and Unc split their matchups. Duke is bounced in the 2nd round at the hands of West Virginia. Unc makes it to the Final 4.
2009: Paulus a senior, Scheyer, Henderson, Zoubek, and Thomas are juniors, Smith and Singler are sophs, Elliot Williams and MP1 are freshmen. Unc sweeps duke. Duke gets blown out by Villanova in the sweet 16. Unc wins the national championship.
2010 (Great Year): Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek are Seniors, Singler and Smith are Juniors, MP 1 is a soph, MP2, Dawkins, and a Kelly are Freshmen. Duke sweeps Unc. Duke wins the national championship.
2011 (Decent year/Kyries injury): Seniors Singler and Smith, Junior MP1, Sophs Dawkins, MP2, Kelly, and Curry, Freshmen were Thornton and Hairston. Best Unc two out of three times. Get blown out by Arizona in the Sweet 16 as Nolan struggled to find his offense when Kyrie returned from injury.
2012: Senior MP1, Juniors MP2, Curry, Kelly, and Dawkins, Sophs Thornton and Hairston, Freshmen Rivers, Cook, MP3, Murphy, and Gbinije. Split with Unc. 1st round loss to Lehigh at the hands of Mccullom.
2013 (Good Year): Seniors, Curry, Kelly, and MP2, Juniors, Thornton and Hairston, Sophs, Cook, MP3, and Murphy, Freshmen Jefferson and Suliamon. Swept Unc. Loss in the Elite 8 to national champion Louisville.
2014: Duke’s 2nd worst defensive team during this time frame only behind the 2006-2007 duke team. Seniors Hairston, Thornton, and Dawkins, Juniors, Cook and MP3, Sophs Jefferson, Hood, and Suliamon, Freshmen Matt Jones and Jabari Parker. Split with Unc. Loss in the 1st round to Mercer.
What sticks out to me the most is from 2007-2009, Unc was kicking Duke’s rear with a head to head record of 5-1 favoring Unc. Unc had made it to 3 straight elite 8s, 2 straight final fours, and won a National Championship. Meanwhile, Duke flamed out in the 1st round, 2nd round, and sweet 16 respectively. The first round losses during the 2011-2012 and 2013-2014 seasons were made up with upperclassmen players (MP1, Curry, Dawkins, Kelly, MP2, Thornton, Hairston, and Cook). Duke made two elite 8s, 1 Final Four, and won 1 national championship while failing to make it out of the first weekend of the ncaa tournament 4 out of the 10 seasons.
From 2015-2019 (OAD route): Duke has 7-5 head to head record on Unc. Duke has been to 3 Elite 8s, 1 Final Four, and won 1 national championship. Duke has only had 1 first weekend exit (2017). Unc on the other hand outside of their 2016 and 2017 back to back title game appearances have failed to make it out of the first weekend the last two seasons getting blown out in the ncaa tournament the last two seasons in the tournament.
It’s been said the 2018 elite 8 game hinged on Allen’s buzzer beater rimming off the rim. This year’s elite 8 game, Duke was up 3 with a minute and a half to go. Goins hit a shot to give MSU the go ahead lead and Barrett splits his free throws. 3 of the past 5 seasons Duke was in position to make the final four and compete for a title, 2016-2017 Duke team ran into a hot South Carolina team, the 2015-2016 duke team was the only duke squad in the last 5 years that was not going to compete for a title.
So would you rather take the early exits from 2005-2014 with the lack of elite 8s or getting to the elite 8 and/or beyond from 2015-2019? I know which one I prefer. Take the best talent all the time and figure out how to make the team work together.
Everyone will get their wish this upcoming season, Bolden, White and DeLaurier will all be Seniors, O’Connell and Goldwire will be Juniors, Baker and Tre (Maybe a Sophomore?), along with Carey and Ellis (Freshmen). Experienced upperclassmen with only 1 true one and done in Carey.
2005: JJ, Williams, Dockery, Melchionni were juniors along with Seniors, Ewing and Randolph. Duke was a 1 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to MSU.
2006: Duke was a favorite to win the title with Seniors JJ, Williams, Dockery, and Melcionni, sophomore DeMarcus Nelson, and freshmen Paulus and McRoberts. Duke lost in the sweet 16 to LSU.
2007: Young Duke squad with Nelson as a junior, Paulus and McRoberts sophs, and Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, and Henderson as Freshmen. This team was one of duke’s Worst defensive teams along with the 2013-2014 team. Unc swept this duke team and duke lost to vcu in the first round of the tournament. Unc gets to the elite 8.
2008: Nelson as a senior, Paulus as a junior, scheyer, Henderson, zoubek, and Thomas as sophomores, and smith, singler, and king as freshmen. Duke and Unc split their matchups. Duke is bounced in the 2nd round at the hands of West Virginia. Unc makes it to the Final 4.
2009: Paulus a senior, Scheyer, Henderson, Zoubek, and Thomas are juniors, Smith and Singler are sophs, Elliot Williams and MP1 are freshmen. Unc sweeps duke. Duke gets blown out by Villanova in the sweet 16. Unc wins the national championship.
2010 (Great Year): Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek are Seniors, Singler and Smith are Juniors, MP 1 is a soph, MP2, Dawkins, and a Kelly are Freshmen. Duke sweeps Unc. Duke wins the national championship.
2011 (Decent year/Kyries injury): Seniors Singler and Smith, Junior MP1, Sophs Dawkins, MP2, Kelly, and Curry, Freshmen were Thornton and Hairston. Best Unc two out of three times. Get blown out by Arizona in the Sweet 16 as Nolan struggled to find his offense when Kyrie returned from injury.
2012: Senior MP1, Juniors MP2, Curry, Kelly, and Dawkins, Sophs Thornton and Hairston, Freshmen Rivers, Cook, MP3, Murphy, and Gbinije. Split with Unc. 1st round loss to Lehigh at the hands of Mccullom.
2013 (Good Year): Seniors, Curry, Kelly, and MP2, Juniors, Thornton and Hairston, Sophs, Cook, MP3, and Murphy, Freshmen Jefferson and Suliamon. Swept Unc. Loss in the Elite 8 to national champion Louisville.
2014: Duke’s 2nd worst defensive team during this time frame only behind the 2006-2007 duke team. Seniors Hairston, Thornton, and Dawkins, Juniors, Cook and MP3, Sophs Jefferson, Hood, and Suliamon, Freshmen Matt Jones and Jabari Parker. Split with Unc. Loss in the 1st round to Mercer.
What sticks out to me the most is from 2007-2009, Unc was kicking Duke’s rear with a head to head record of 5-1 favoring Unc. Unc had made it to 3 straight elite 8s, 2 straight final fours, and won a National Championship. Meanwhile, Duke flamed out in the 1st round, 2nd round, and sweet 16 respectively. The first round losses during the 2011-2012 and 2013-2014 seasons were made up with upperclassmen players (MP1, Curry, Dawkins, Kelly, MP2, Thornton, Hairston, and Cook). Duke made two elite 8s, 1 Final Four, and won 1 national championship while failing to make it out of the first weekend of the ncaa tournament 4 out of the 10 seasons.
From 2015-2019 (OAD route): Duke has 7-5 head to head record on Unc. Duke has been to 3 Elite 8s, 1 Final Four, and won 1 national championship. Duke has only had 1 first weekend exit (2017). Unc on the other hand outside of their 2016 and 2017 back to back title game appearances have failed to make it out of the first weekend the last two seasons getting blown out in the ncaa tournament the last two seasons in the tournament.
It’s been said the 2018 elite 8 game hinged on Allen’s buzzer beater rimming off the rim. This year’s elite 8 game, Duke was up 3 with a minute and a half to go. Goins hit a shot to give MSU the go ahead lead and Barrett splits his free throws. 3 of the past 5 seasons Duke was in position to make the final four and compete for a title, 2016-2017 Duke team ran into a hot South Carolina team, the 2015-2016 duke team was the only duke squad in the last 5 years that was not going to compete for a title.
So would you rather take the early exits from 2005-2014 with the lack of elite 8s or getting to the elite 8 and/or beyond from 2015-2019? I know which one I prefer. Take the best talent all the time and figure out how to make the team work together.
Everyone will get their wish this upcoming season, Bolden, White and DeLaurier will all be Seniors, O’Connell and Goldwire will be Juniors, Baker and Tre (Maybe a Sophomore?), along with Carey and Ellis (Freshmen). Experienced upperclassmen with only 1 true one and done in Carey.
Stop reminding me of the others title we could have had!!!
If you like winning 25 to 30 games a year and winning the ACC tournament every few years and then bowing out of the NCAA tourney before the final four then the OAD’ are great. Duke and Kentucky have utilized the OAD’s more than any one and have two championships between them in all those years of the OAD’s.
So, you guys think we'd have more championships if we hadn't recruited the best players?
Need the best players, but also need to realize we have 13 scholarships and to not keep on wasting them on players you know will never be more than a practice player or at most a small role player. We also need to develop our "non one and dones" much much better. There are some fundamental deficiencies with our returning players that's just basketball 101 at this level. There's defensive and offensive principles/effort/IQ that some of our players don't have, and it doesn't matter what D you run or what offensive scheme you have, they need developed.
All those years? How many years are we talking? And in that amount of years, is there another school who has won 3 or 4 National Championships in that time that didn't have one and dones?
May be the most sensitive subject on this board. I love getting talent. Then you need chemistry. Thought we had both covered this season, but we didn't. Injuries, or whatever, we just didn't get better as a team as the season wore on, and that seems to happen to us more than I like admitting. Our lack of shooting was our downfall. Not free throw shooting.
First, K plays the one and dones the bulk of the minutes, and each new year, a different set of them are being the focal point. Bolden has shown minimal improvement over his 3 year career. Either he just isn't good, or doesn't get enough touches to get comfortable in games. Now if he stays for his senior season, it appears Carey will be the center, because he's a "one and done." Maybe Carey is much better, and maybe Bolden just doesn't have the "it" factor.
The minutes played are deceiving too. Alex is a prime example, just look at the 4 tournament games we played. He averaged 12 minutes a game. Sounds like he had enough time. Look at each game though. He played 11, 0, 35, and then 3. I'm not saying he should have played 25 a game though. Tre and RJ both averaged about 35 minutes a game for the season, yet against better competition, they didn't come out. Goldwire, for the season, averaged almost 9 minutes a game. But we all know there were many games where he either hardly played, or didn't play at all. So I find it hard to say a guy can fully show what he can do if he make a mistake in the few minutes he's out there, then maybe not play for the next game and a half.
Personally, I think we have to do a slightly better job earlier in the season with the rotation. The sad part is, since we didn't win #6, we go into the offseason praying Tre stays, or we get this Hampton kid, and we land Hurt or someone similar. Then we hope that if we land them, they buy into winning and playing team ball.
Some say it's because our bench guys aren't good, some say it's because they don't get a chance to develop. Honestly, I think it's somewhere in between and we need a better balance.
First, K plays the one and dones the bulk of the minutes, and each new year, a different set of them are being the focal point. Bolden has shown minimal improvement over his 3 year career. Either he just isn't good, or doesn't get enough touches to get comfortable in games. Now if he stays for his senior season, it appears Carey will be the center, because he's a "one and done." Maybe Carey is much better, and maybe Bolden just doesn't have the "it" factor.
The minutes played are deceiving too. Alex is a prime example, just look at the 4 tournament games we played. He averaged 12 minutes a game. Sounds like he had enough time. Look at each game though. He played 11, 0, 35, and then 3. I'm not saying he should have played 25 a game though. Tre and RJ both averaged about 35 minutes a game for the season, yet against better competition, they didn't come out. Goldwire, for the season, averaged almost 9 minutes a game. But we all know there were many games where he either hardly played, or didn't play at all. So I find it hard to say a guy can fully show what he can do if he make a mistake in the few minutes he's out there, then maybe not play for the next game and a half.
Personally, I think we have to do a slightly better job earlier in the season with the rotation. The sad part is, since we didn't win #6, we go into the offseason praying Tre stays, or we get this Hampton kid, and we land Hurt or someone similar. Then we hope that if we land them, they buy into winning and playing team ball.
Some say it's because our bench guys aren't good, some say it's because they don't get a chance to develop. Honestly, I think it's somewhere in between and we need a better balance.
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I think we absolutely did, it is just those things don't guarantee success. They are a requirement, and they give you the best chance of success, but they don't guarantee a thing.
I have zero problems with OAD..my problem lies with the development of none OAD talent..or talent that perceived itself as OAD.
What we have left on the roster has seen very little of significance in playing time..players we had that could of helped have transferred..leaves the cupboard bare for the transition year to year on our roster..
Does anyone really think Goldwire or AOC are going to play more and have more significant impact next season? It’s possible I guess but more unlikely..so we have this revolving door year to year but nothing to really solidify it in upperclassmen..
The guys where gassed the other night..a few minutes here or there would of made a world of difference IMO..it’s quite possible that defensive laps happened at the end because of fatigue and had Tre or Zion been given a blow would not of happened...who know really..I don’t really have the answer and not even sure it’s coming across the way I am thinking about it in writing..we need more development in our “other” guys and it’s not happening...so IMO the OAD isn’t working come championship time because of it..
What we have left on the roster has seen very little of significance in playing time..players we had that could of helped have transferred..leaves the cupboard bare for the transition year to year on our roster..
Does anyone really think Goldwire or AOC are going to play more and have more significant impact next season? It’s possible I guess but more unlikely..so we have this revolving door year to year but nothing to really solidify it in upperclassmen..
The guys where gassed the other night..a few minutes here or there would of made a world of difference IMO..it’s quite possible that defensive laps happened at the end because of fatigue and had Tre or Zion been given a blow would not of happened...who know really..I don’t really have the answer and not even sure it’s coming across the way I am thinking about it in writing..we need more development in our “other” guys and it’s not happening...so IMO the OAD isn’t working come championship time because of it..
The only sure thing I see, when K wins, he’s the GOAT, when he loses, he’s lost it, can’t coach anymore, yadda yadda yadda. I damn sure don’t want him gone. You don’t either, you just don’t know it yet.
Some people are only happy when they're complaining. For a while it was K can't recruit great talent, now it's he can't develop non OAD. Well we've seen him do both. The injuries in my opinion have been our biggest obstacles through the years and it sure bit us this year.
My problem with 2009 was not using EWill like he should of. We only had a couple athletes and he got little burn for most of the year
Pick a program from right now other than Duke who you think has done a great job of recruiting, developing players, adjusting to the ever changing OAD landscape and who in general seems to have NCAAB figured out.
Then look at their overall results in the regular season and the NCAA tourney over the past 10 years.
Now, compare that to Duke's success over those same ten years.
Then look at their overall results in the regular season and the NCAA tourney over the past 10 years.
Now, compare that to Duke's success over those same ten years.
These are the biggest head scratchers to me..that year he couldn’t get any playing time and then all the sudden he was starting for us..if he was good enough to start suddenly he was certainly equipped enough to have been getting some minutes along the way..
I won’t reach to far back..but even this year..we needed spacing and shooters to give Barrett and Zion room to operate and K choose to go the defensive route and play a Goldwire instead. That clogged everything up more, people didn’t even guard him. I disagreed, always thought we where talented enough and athletic enough to make up for AOC defensively but his shooting would be more of a positive impact , however I understood choosing to roll defensively and the thinking we would be able to score enough based on our overall defensive strengths...in the ACC tourney we rolled with Goldwire and AOC saw almost zero time. But then we go into the NCAA tourney and we seem to flip it all...Cam can’t play and all the sudden we roll with AOC, Goldwire isn’t seen and when we need a defensive stop at the end of the VT game we go with AOC makes zero sense...AOC starts against State for three minutes and then we don’t see him the rest of the game...
Just seems K solidified our identity in Feb and March...this is how we will roll...this is the rotation..we are a defensive team and then al, the sudden we just changed it up..these things aren’t really explainable and just seem to be more off the cuff...
My comment was more about the people saying K should retire (in 2009) because the game has passed him by and he’d never win another NC.
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People who think K should retire are idiots...
But at the same time it’s ok to question some head scratching decision making..The Jabari Parker team is the only real time I’ve ever felt he did just a terrible job coaching..granted he had a lot go on that year also..
But at the same time it’s ok to question some head scratching decision making..The Jabari Parker team is the only real time I’ve ever felt he did just a terrible job coaching..granted he had a lot go on that year also..