Some pushback on the CFP or bust mentality

[18IsTheMan]

Glad to start seeing some of this. I saw another coach expressed the same sentiment last week…can’t remember which one. But all these people involved did it to themselves. Now they are dealing with the fallout that your season is considered a failure and you’re an expendable coach if you don’t make the playoffs.

 

[gamecox4982]

Actually the season is over if you’re not in the playoff mix….bowl games (outside of the additional practices) are worthless

 

[18IsTheMan]

Actually the season is over if you’re not in the playoff mix….bowl games (outside of the additional practices) are worthless

Can you explain why you feel that way? By any historical measure, an 8-9 win season is a very good season for us, but that's not playoff worthy.

 

[Rob Hawk]

Actually the season is over if you’re not in the playoff mix….bowl games (outside of the additional practices) are worthless

Fans are slow to learn this. As they begin to realize this, bowl games will start to disappear.

 

[Lurker123]

Fans are slow to learn this. As they begin to realize this, bowl games will start to disappear.

But 99.9% of bowls have always been "meaningless". Most bowls were never a deciding factor in championships in any year they were ever played.

I understand calling them "meaningless" given the national title criteria. But if thats the case, then they always have been. And yet people were still interested in them.

 

[Rob Hawk]

But 99.9% of bowls have always been "meaningless". Most bowls were never a deciding factor in championships in any year they were ever played.

I understand calling them "meaningless" given the national title criteria. But if thats the case, then they always have been. And yet people were still interested in them.

We shall see. I just think with teams dumping their coaches on a regular basis and players opting out, unless your a top team that recliner can be way more inviting. Once attendance and viewership drops off so do sponsors.

 

[18IsTheMan]

But 99.9% of bowls have always been "meaningless". Most bowls were never a deciding factor in championships in any year they were ever played.

I understand calling them "meaningless" given the national title criteria. But if thats the case, then they always have been. And yet people were still interested in them.

Yes, it's been a logically flawed argument from the outset. Nobody who makes the argument can explain it, but they'll repeat it. I've begged for an explanation/justification but have never been able to get one. It's a very pertinent argument for us, because we have had six seasons of 9 or more wins in our history. A 9-win season is a VERY good season for us, but it's not a CFP season. There is no scenario in which in a 9-win season and playing in a bowl is a disappointing season for us.

It's always been an aggravating argument for me b/c people will definitely and authoritatively repeat it as though it is settled fact. Yet I have never a single explanation/justification for it.

We shall see. I just think with teams dumping their coaches on a regular basis and players opting out, unless your a top team that recliner can be way more inviting. Once attendance and viewership drops off so do sponsors.

There are 136 FBS teams. Generously, you could say maybe 30 teams enter the season with a realistic shot at the the playoffs. After 2-3 weeks, that number rapidly dwindles. But you're entering the season with nearly 80% of teams knowing they aren't playing for a CFP berth. It's not even on the table. As is apparent here, it takes a total recalibration of thinking. Pre-CFP you scarcely heard of the meaningless bowl talk, but now fans mindlessly repeat as if it is fact, even though they can offer little justification for it. We have never been in a situation where we were competing for the national title at year's end, so us playing in any bowl is no different than any bowl we've ever played in.

Now, I will say there are certainly too many bowls. That has done far more to decrease the relevance of bowls than the CFP. The number could easily be cut in half. Raise bowl eligibility to 7 or 8 wins, so you increase the quality of teams playing. Make it harder to get a bowl game. Scarcity increases demand. As it stands now, you can have a bad season and still get a bowl game. Raise the bar. Cut the # of bowl games in half and all of a sudden you have teams scratching and clawing for the remaining games.

 

[Lurker123]

We shall see. I just think with teams dumping their coaches on a regular basis and players opting out, unless your a top team that recliner can be way more inviting. Once attendance and viewership drops off so do sponsors.

I agree that the smaller bowls are dropping off. What i debate is that it is the fault of the playoffs.

We went to the Citrus bowl last year. In my memory (or at least for the last several decades) the Citrus bowl was never a component of the national title conversation.

Why should it be dropping off, suffering, or dwindling in any way if it always was a "meaningless" bowl?

Imho, you touched on it with the opt outs. That and the transfer portal have made smaller bowls a battle of second stringers. That is the recent change that is killing the "meaningless" bowls.

 

[PrestonyteParrot]

Glad to start seeing some of this. I saw another coach expressed the same sentiment last week…can’t remember which one. But all these people involved did it to themselves. Now they are dealing with the fallout that your season is considered a failure and you’re an expendable coach if you don’t make the playoffs.

CFB needs a ''December Madness'' to be inclusive for more teams in post season.
40+ teams playing for the ''Final Four'' for a couple of months would be great.

 

[18IsTheMan]

CFB needs a ''December Madness'' to be inclusive for more teams in post season.
40+ teams playing for the ''Final Four'' for a couple of months would be great.

Bowl games are postseason.

Pre CFP nobody the thought never entered anyone's mind that you needed to give 40 teams a "shot at the title". For some reason, after the creation of a 4- team CFP folks instantly though "everyone needs a shot in the postseason". There's no logic to it . At all.

 

[Piscis]

Several factors at play here. Huge coaches salaries have contributed to the "CFP or bust" mindset. When fans are being forced to pay thousands of dollars a year for two tickets so the coach can make multiple millions of dollars each year, the fans are justified in demanding top level results. If coaches want the pressure turned down on expectations, maybe they should take less pay and ask the fans to pay less for tickets.

There should be no more than 15 bowl games. Bowl eligibility should be 7 FBS wins, FCS wins should not count towards bowl eligibility and should not be allowed.

I agree that 8 or 9 win seasons should be considered a good season. The big change is the amount of money.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Several factors at play here. Huge coaches salaries have contributed to the "CFP or bust" mindset. When fans are being forced to pay thousands of dollars a year for two tickets so the coach can make multiple millions of dollars each year, the fans are justified in demanding top level results. If coaches want the pressure turned down on expectations, maybe they should take less pay and ask the fans to pay less for tickets.

There should be no more than 15 bowl games. Bowl eligibility should be 7 FBS wins, FCS wins should not count towards bowl eligibility and should not be allowed.

I agree that 8 or 9 win seasons should be considered a good season. The big change is the amount of money.

Coaching salaries are definitely a factor and then NIL budgets as well. Fans understandably expect some return on investment. College sports has come to mirror pro sports in this way. High payrolls bring high expectations while low payrolls bring low expectations. The problem is, it's just not reasonable to expect. Ask Texas A&M. They spend as much as anyone, but money can't buy you a title. If it could, nobody outside of Texas would have won any national titles ever. But that's why I said in the OP the coaches are partly to blame for the expectations. Even mediocre teams in college football have highly paid coaches now.

Even so, outside of a small handful of teams, a 9-win season would be considered a solid, successful season for many teams and a great season for a bunch of teams. I simply don't see how the advent of the CFP changes that. Shoot, some fans are even disgruntled now at a 10-win season. You have teams who have historically won 9 or 10 games a year, suddenly turning up their noses at such seasons.

 

[Piscis]

Coaching salaries are definitely a factor and then NIL budgets as well. Fans understandably expect some return on investment. College sports has come to mirror pro sports in this way. High payrolls bring high expectations while low payrolls bring low expectations. The problem is, it's just not reasonable to expect. Ask Texas A&M. They spend as much as anyone, but money can't buy you a title. If it could, nobody outside of Texas would have won any national titles ever. But that's why I said in the OP the coaches are partly to blame for the expectations. Even mediocre teams in college football have highly paid coaches now.

Even so, outside of a small handful of teams, a 9-win season would be considered a solid, successful season for many teams and a great season for a bunch of teams. I simply don't see how the advent of the CFP changes that. Shoot, some fans are even disgruntled now at a 10-win season. You have teams who have historically won 9 or 10 games a year, suddenly turning up their noses at such seasons.

Mark Richt averaged 9.7 wins a season for 15 seasons and UGA fired him because he couldn't win championships. Their move worked out great and I think a lot of teams are chasing the next Kirby Smart hire. The thing those other teams are forgetting is that UGA was a sleeping giant that had every piece in place to be a powerhouse when Kirby arrived. UGA wasn't some historic loser program, they were pretty darn good for a long time before Richt got there.

The combination of the huge coaching salaries and the CFP have made a 9 win season a disappointment. Kiffin had some great comments about how money can't make up for the advantages the true blue bloods have in college football. He said there are about 5 or 6 "tier 0" programs that have built in intangible advantages that money can't buy. He said they have impressive campuses, 100,000 seat stadiums that are full for every game, top 10 recruiting classes every year, strong alumni networks AND plenty of money. He said Ole Miss has the money now but they are missing those intangibles that money can't buy. I think fans of the "other teams" are going to have to adjust their expectations if they want to enjoy college football.

South Carolina needs to go back to the mindset of the pre BCS era where seasons were judged by how the team fared against the rivals and if the overall record had at least 8 wins. 8 regular season wins and a nice bowl trip should be a good season for any team.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Mark Richt averaged 9.7 wins a season for 15 seasons and UGA fired him because he couldn't win championships. Their move worked out great and I think a lot of teams are chasing the next Kirby Smart hire. The thing those other teams are forgetting is that UGA was a sleeping giant that had every piece in place to be a powerhouse when Kirby arrived. UGA wasn't some historic loser program, they were pretty darn good for a long time before Richt got there.

The combination of the huge coaching salaries and the CFP have made a 9 win season a disappointment. Kiffin had some great comments about how money can't make up for the advantages the true blue bloods have in college football. He said there are about 5 or 6 "tier 0" programs that have built in intangible advantages that money can't buy. He said they have impressive campuses, 100,000 seat stadiums that are full for every game, top 10 recruiting classes every year, strong alumni networks AND plenty of money. He said Ole Miss has the money now but they are missing those intangibles that money can't buy. I think fans of the "other teams" are going to have to adjust their expectations if they want to enjoy college football.

South Carolina needs to go back to the mindset of the pre BCS era where seasons were judged by how the team fared against the rivals and if the overall record had at least 8 wins. 8 regular season wins and a nice bowl trip should be a good season for any team.

Another way to look at it is that the water level has risen for everyone regarding salaries. The lowest paid coach in the SEC makes about $4 million. Twelve coaches in the SEC make $7 million or more. Salaries across the board have just exploded, so no one school has increased disproportionately to others. The salaries are insane, but they are uniformly insane. So while we may want to say we expect more b/c we pay Beamer $8 million/year or whatever, everyone is paying a lot and every fan base could say the same thing. But not everyone can win.

 

[Dabo's Weenie]

No one is "forced" to buy a ticket at any price. Those who do, do so of their own volition. Want to solve the "problem"? Refuse to be part of it.

And some people would like 140 bowls even more than 40. Since it's all for entertainment purposes, the more the better and there are always some games that turn out to be unexpected gems among the dozens over the holidays.

It sure beats watching the picklesnifferball tournaments they're now tring to foist on viewers... or dog shows... or drone racing in abandoned warehouses. Pretty soon the toenail clipping tourneys will be the rage - at least that's what they'll tell advertisers to justify their rates.

My favorite game every season is Army/Navy. It would be difficult to find another one played with so much passion. Don't ever remember seeing anyone "opt out" of it.

 

[SILVERSPUR-rier]

The bowl system will slowly become what the NIT is for college basketball....

 

[HI Cock1]

Can you explain why you feel that way? By any historical measure, an 8-9 win season is a very good season for us, but that's not playoff worthy.

Maybe because these coaches are getting paid >$5 million each with >$20 million buyouts. That's elite pay. You should expect elite results. 8-9 wins is mediocre results.

 

[Uscg1984]

But 99.9% of bowls have always been "meaningless". Most bowls were never a deciding factor in championships in any year they were ever played.

I understand calling them "meaningless" given the national title criteria. But if thats the case, then they always have been. And yet people were still interested in them.

What's interesting about the bowl situation is that it wasn't really the market who decided they were "meaningless." It was the talent who decided they were meaningless and walked off the job - thus guaranteeing that they would become meaningless to the market too.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Maybe because these coaches are getting paid >$5 million each with >$20 million buyouts. That's elite pay. You should expect elite results. 8-9 wins is mediocre results.

But money doesn't buy wins. We could pay a coach $25 million/year and we wouldn't win a title.

 

[Go Gamecocks]

Maybe because these coaches are getting paid >$5 million each with >$20 million buyouts. That's elite pay. You should expect elite results. 8-9 wins is mediocre results.

Problem is, there's more $$ available than wins. Somebody's going to get shortchanged.
It's seriously effed up.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Problem is, there's more $$ available than wins. Somebody's going to get shortchanged.
It's seriously effed up.

It's inevitable. Salaries are up across the board. The number of available wins hasn't changed.

 

[treyno2722]

Can you explain why you feel that way? By any historical measure, an 8-9 win season is a very good season for us, but that's not playoff worthy.

I would kill for some seasons like last year. We had the Texas A&M second half shutout, the Mizzou and Clemson thrillers. Other than the three year Spurrier run, last year was my favorite in 30 years.

 

[JohnnySolo]

On the bright side we won't have any bowl opt-outs to complain about. Just transfers.

 

[Piscis]

No one is "forced" to buy a ticket at any price. Those who do, do so of their own volition. Want to solve the "problem"? Refuse to be part of it.

And some people would like 140 bowls even more than 40. Since it's all for entertainment purposes, the more the better and there are always some games that turn out to be unexpected gems among the dozens over the holidays.

It sure beats watching the picklesnifferball tournaments they're now tring to foist on viewers... or dog shows... or drone racing in abandoned warehouses. Pretty soon the toenail clipping tourneys will be the rage - at least that's what they'll tell advertisers to justify their rates.

My favorite game every season is Army/Navy. It would be difficult to find another one played with so much passion. Don't ever remember seeing anyone "opt out" of it.

Army/Navy is the best game of the year, every year, and always has been. I've been to the game in person and there is nothing to compare to it.

 

[Piscis]

It's inevitable. Salaries are up across the board. The number of available wins hasn't changed.

I think there is a ceiling on salaries and we are pretty close to it. The limiting factor (unless tv money continues to skyrocket) is the ticket buying public's willingness to pay more and more to come to games. I know fans of a number of teams who buy season tickets, UGA, SC, Clemson, Bama, Auburn, Georgia tech and Georgia Southern. Pretty much all of them have said they are about at their limit on what they are willing to spend. The fans of the teams that are winning big are more willing to keep paying but the ones who are fans of the also rans are really shaky on continuing to spend several thousand dollars a year per season ticket. A Clemson fan told me he thinks about how many long weekend beach trips he could take with the money he spends on four season tickets each year and that he could still see all of the games. A UGA fan told me he dropped his tickets two years ago but still goes to Athens on gamedays and sets up a big tailgate with friends with a big screen tv and watches the games. About half of his tailgate crew go into the game and the rest stay at the tailgate, eat, drink and watch the game. He said the ticket price and the required "donation" each year was enough to pay for several years of tailgating. He still goes to one game a year where he buys tickets on the secondary market.

The top tier teams will be fine. The UNC, SC, NC State, Miss. State, UVA, etc. type teams are going to be the ones that feel the pinch and the cycle will continue and get worse. Those "have not" programs will continue to slide back and see 6 and 7 win seasons as the norm and 8 or 9 win seasons as good years. They will form new rivalries with other teams on their own level. I can easily see the top 20 to 25 programs breaking away and forming a new league. The rest of the current P4 teams will regroup and become something of G5 + 1 league.

 

[HI Cock1]

But money doesn't buy wins. We could pay a coach $25 million/year and we wouldn't win a title.

Seems to me that multiple millions per year is elite - only the top-20 coaches in CFB make that much. If you're in the top-20 pay, you should be challenging for the playoffs every year. You shouldn't be pressing just to get to a bowl... especially in year 5/6. The expectation should be 9 wins minimum. The elite programs know that and their pay is commensurate. 20% raises for doing what's expected is ridiculous.

 

[Go Gamecocks]

I would kill for some seasons like last year. We had the Texas A&M second half shutout, the Mizzou and Clemson thrillers. Other than the three year Spurrier run, last year was my favorite in 30 years.

That was a scrappy team on both sides of the ball.

 

[Dabo's Weenie]

That was a scrappy team on both sides of the ball.

Doesn't sound all that different from what we usually have.

Most years it's a crappy team on both sides of the ball.

Funny how one little letter can make such a difference.

 

[Go Gamecocks]

Most years it's a crappy team on both sides of the ball.

I haven't seen a crappy defense out of Clayton White since he's been here.

 

[Dabo's Weenie]

I haven't seen a crappy defense out of Clayton White since he's been here.

It says "most"". Leaves room for outliers.