Something happening on campus that I don't think we've discussed

[TiogaLion]

What is the 'standard' for institutions (academic or otherwise) to 'prevent' sexual assault? Educational programs? More counselors? Clearly defined standards of conduct for students as well as a crystal clear definition of sexual assault? This is certainly a problem, but how much can Penn State (or any institution) actually 'prevent' sexual assault (which appears to be one of the suggested areas for improvement for PSU)? I would assume most of these assaults occur off campus where it is less easy to monitor the behavior of students. I don't know what dorm policies are, but even in the military you have to sign in female/male guests to all male/female floors or barracks. I know in the military, it is a massive problem, but a lot of that is cultural that has been decades in the making and very difficult to unravel. The difference there is a big stick and ability to punish such behavior (UCMJ provides opportunity for punishment even if a standard for assault hasn't been met legally).

So, while I agree Barron's answers are a bit flaccid, I'd like to know what other schools do and what their success stories are.

Most dorms are coed, by room, not floor/section/etc, which is the case at most universities. A student living in the dorms uses their student id to open their dorm building entrance doors. The id only works for their dorm building.

But face it, not sure about your time at school but I spent many a nights and days in the girls dorms without having been "checked" by the door watchers. Since a roommate would get displaced, well usually, most of the floor would know who had a visitor. Often seemed like half the girls on any floor were displaced.

 

[Midnighter]

Most dorms are coed, by room, not floor/section/etc, which is the case at most universities. A student living in the dorms uses their student id to open their dorm building entrance doors. The id only works for their dorm building.

But face it, not sure about your time at school but I spent many a nights and days in the girls dorms without having been "checked" by the door watchers. Since a roommate would get displaced, well usually, most of the floor would know who had a visitor. Often seemed like half the girls on any floor were displaced.

Was there any mention in any of the reports of the number of reported assaults on campus vs. off? I would think there is a different standard of duty for any university between the two, but no idea. This is a really complicated problem that is not easily solved with guidance counselors and hotlines.

 

[Still in State Colllege]

Young people today have a pretty tall hill to climb. First the idea of who can really give consent is much different than in the past. Second the access to pornography has had to have altered expectations as to what appropriate responses are in sexual situations. Cursory review of these ideas are not enough to tell young people. It needs to be drilled what things are not right.

 

[TiogaLion]

Was there any mention in any of the reports of the number of reported assaults on campus vs. off? I would think there is a different standard of duty for any university between the two, but no idea. This is a really complicated problem that is not easily solved with guidance counselors and hotlines.

It's been awhile since I looked at a PSU (University Park) specific report. However, the handbook for reporting covers some on-campus vs off-campus reporting examples and issues. It does get very complicated.

And as state above, how much can an institution actually do to prevent sexual assault. Their are options for students that want to be about kept safe and that being they can attend schools with strict curfews and restrictions on male/female interactions. Schools like Liberty, Messiah, etc.

I guess I'm as guilty as anyone, but I always assume sexual assault is male/female and it's not always the case. My daughter has a high school friend that attends University Park who happens to be a lesbian. She (the friend) has a serious issue with unwanted advances from other females. There's a lot more to this story but this is enough for now.

 

[Nitwit]

Alcohol consumption, by either the accused or the victim, is a big factor regarding the occurrence of sexual assaults, and even the occasional death by accidents or alcohol poisoning. Penn State as well as other universities have attempted to reduce these occurrences by reining in fraternities and controlling drinking behavior elsewhere where possible but it’s very difficult to legislate and especially enforce anti drinking behavior among 18-22 year olds enjoying their new found freedoms away from home.

 

[WVilleLion]

Does anyone really believe that University Park is a dangerous place for students to be? How about more dangerous than most other schools? I'm a parent with students at school right now and we discuss life on campus and in-town regularly. My daughters tell me they, and their friends are never afraid at school. That's how I remember it as well.

The statement about culture is absolute BS. I see our Rutgers friend above seems to agree with this take.

Parents with students at University Park; Could you please call you child(ren) and discuss this article. I love to hear there feedback. I'll call mine as well and report back.

Why don’t you also call those that have been assaulted at UP and tell them how safe it is. We will wait until you report back on that as well.

 

[TiogaLion]

Why don’t you also call those that have been assaulted at UP and tell them how safe it is. We will wait until you report back on that as well.

Oh boy, you're so smart. Go read some CNN headlines.

 

[SouthHalls410]

These are the numbers that were reported. How many go unreported?

 

[razpsu]

Well, all I know about this is the article you attached. It seems like the idea is to study this and to educate.
And geez, way to set the bar low with this comment:
,” Barron said. “I go, ‘Stop all sexual assault…’ and really that isn’t the answer. The answer is we have to do better.”

Blue ribbon fact finding commission. Yep sounds like government. Lol

 

[91Joe95]

Blue ribbon fact finding commission. Yep sounds like government. Lol

You have to spend money to spend money.

 

[PSUriseANDfire]

Leave it to this board to downplay such problems.

You seem to love making strange comments in personal and very personal threads when it comes to individuals here you don't know. At least you back it up with followup stupidity.

Retire already.

 

[Nohow]

Mitchell brings back good memories. I assume PSU is the only school actually reporting to the old Clery Act reporting requirements. The reporting was recently pulled back because Universities and Colleges could not/would not put the resources in place, however Penn State already had the resources in place. I'll assume they are still reporting. Here's a few of my favorites right from the Reporting Handbook.

"It is not necessary for the crime to have been investigated by the police or a
campus security authority, nor must a finding of guilt or responsibility be made to include
the reported crime in your institution’s crime statistics."

"A retracted statement or withdrawal of a complaint alone is not sufficient evidence to prove that the crime did not occur."

"Once a student has been referred for disciplinary action, a record has been initiated and the referral must be counted. Disciplinary referrals cannot be unfounded."

Essentially, anything that anyone thinks made them uncomfortable is reported as sexual assault. It makes no difference if the act or words had anything to do with sex in any way. If it made someone uncomfortable, and it is reported, even by a third party, it MUST be reported as sexual assault. Further, "the victim" can not undue a report in any way. Think about that for a moment...

You seem to love making strange comments in personal and very personal threads when it comes to individuals here you don't know. At least you back it up with followup stupidity.

Retire already.

Just calling em like I see em

 

[manatree]

http://timely-warnings.police.psu.edu/

I’m not exactly sure what the criteria are for logging these. For example, even though UP Police issued a timely warning by text and email regarding the armed robbery that happened at the bus station right across Atherton on Oct 31, it does not appear to be recorded on the list for University Park.

I can’t guarantee that I read each and every one that comes across my phone, but most of the ones that I recall are on campus. Occasionally there will be one about an off campus incident that was reported to UP Police. Third party reports are also logged and added to the list.

Emails go out to all PSU students and employees. Text alerts are opt in for students and employees. While the general public can not sign up for email or text notifications, students and employees can add family members. The timely warning alerts also go out via the University’s social media accounts and the PSU News websit.

https://psualert.psu.edu/psualert

 

[DandyDonII]

Unfortunately (and this may be by design) the definition of what constitutes sexual assault, sexual misconduct and sexual harassassment are not even defined in the article, so it is hard to get a true sense of what is being reported. Let's face it, when the Offices of Gender Equity or Affirmative Action Departments are so heavily involved, there is a certain level of bias built into the system, the employees that staff these departments have a belief structure and it impacts the way they see issues. One of the individuals mentioned that sexual assault should have a new definition, and even after 4 years of college and 3 years of law school, I have no freaking idea what it actually would mean.
The situation at PSU may be horrendous, or it may not be, but this article was crap.

 

[Nohow]

Unfortunately (and this may be by design) the definition of what constitutes sexual assault, sexual misconduct and sexual harassassment are not even defined in the article, so it is hard to get a true sense of what is being reported. Let's face it, when the Offices of Gender Equity or Affirmative Action Departments are so heavily involved, there is a certain level of bias built into the system, the employees that staff these departments have a belief structure and it impacts the way they see issues. One of the individuals mentioned that sexual assault should have a new definition, and even after 4 years of college and 3 years of law school, I have no freaking idea what it actually would mean.
The situation at PSU may be horrendous, or it may not be, but this article was crap.

No doubt there may be some overreporting, but I don’t doubt you don’t get it. (More likely, there is underreporting.) The alleged victim or witness feels it is bad enough to report the incident to the authorities/police. Any so-called “bias“ is in the eyes of the victim or a witness, it is not any university offices doing the initial reporting.

 

[DandyDonII]

No doubt there may be some overreporting, but I don’t doubt you don’t get it. (More likely, there is underreporting.) The alleged victim or witness feels it is bad enough to report the incident to the authorities/police. Any so-called “bias“ is in the eyes of the victim or a witness, it is not any university offices doing the initial reporting.

I am pretty sure I get it, and I am pretty sure I am much more knowledgeable about the subject matter than you. I believe in victims being treated with the utmost respect, and aggressors who are acting illegally receiving punishment. However, before that punishment is imposed, I am a big fan of due process.

 

[Nohow]

I am pretty sure I get it, and I am pretty sure I am much more knowledgeable about the subject matter than you. I believe in victims being treated with the utmost respect, and aggressors who are acting illegally receiving punishment. However, before that punishment is imposed, I am a big fan of due process.

Followup Investigation and due process are great. Who is arguing with that? The point is unless there is a spate of false accusations, most of the reports filed by alleged victims and eye witnesses are probably valid. They are the ones initiating the reports, not some bureaucracy. That is statistics, not any particular case. I don’t know whether it is a big problem or not, but it is a problem perhaps unavoidable when you mix sexes, exacerbated by access to alcohol. But here is a clue: Most people know when they are assaulted, they don‘t need two bit lawyers or bureaucrats to explain it to them. And if you know so much about such incidents, you know they are probably underreported. Most deniers on this board want to soft peddle the incidents for whatever irrational personal, semipolitical or misogynistic reasons.

 

[DandyDonII]

Followup Investigation and due process are great. Who is arguing with that? The point is unless there is a spate of false accusations, most of the reports filed by alleged victims and eye witnesses are probably valid. They are the ones initiating the reports, not some bureaucracy. That is statistics, not any particular case. I don’t know whether it is a big problem or not, but it is a problem perhaps unavoidable when you mix sexes, exacerbated by access to alcohol. But here is a clue: Most people know when they are assaulted, they don‘t need two bit lawyers or bureaucrats to explain it to them. And if you know so much about such incidents, you know they are probably underreported. Most deniers on this board want to soft peddle the incidents for whatever irrational personal, semipolitical or misogynistic reasons.

my point is college campus' often have a much different definition of assault than the rest of the world. All you have to do is read the article to find out how academia would like it defined.

 

[Bertrand]

It is a big issue on every campus. Talk to your daughters about how many times threats of or actual assaults have happened to them. Parents need to take accountability for the toxic behavior of their sons. Blaming the administration is laughable.

 

[LHavenlion]

They sense a rash of white guys getting blamed for sex crimes by me too cancelers. Therefore they have to start to impugn the women. Yes. while the free board is fantastic at offering tips on sealing driveways, picking the right grill and offering travel advice (it really is), the constant blind spot on here is the supposed nose/eye tests on all things involving women and men. It's like sitting at the bar and listening to coal miners talk about their wives when we all know who really runs their households.

Hey, easy on coal miners, bro

 

[ApexLion]

Hey, easy on coal miners, bro

Grandfather and his 6 brothers all did it. I heard him talk about women until my grandmother came in the room and set 'em straight.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

It is a big issue on every campus. Talk to your daughters about how many times threats of or actual assaults have happened to them. Parents need to take accountability for the toxic behavior of their sons. Blaming the administration is laughable.

It is a big issue on most campuses. And hormones, alcohol, being away from home, etc. are all factors that make it a challenge to resolve.

I'm not sure than anyone is blaming the administration, though this thread has taken some turns that I hadn't anticipated. I started the thread, and my comments about the administration, at least regarding the town hall that they held on the subject with the limit that I can only go on articles about the event, were that they were atrocious. And I stand by that comment.

Parents have very little impact on the situation, whether they are parents of sons or of daughters. I doubt you'll find any parent that wants their offspring to be a party, on either side of the equation, to sexual violence. As their offspring are adults, and are living away from how, there isn't a lot that the parents can do about the day-to-day decisions that their offspring make at college.

 

[Bertrand]

Totally disagree. Parents can make it clear to their sons that it is not OK to sexually harass or assault women. The old excuse of hormones and alcohol is ridiculous. Sexual assault and/or harassment is a judgement call and no amount of alcohol excuses that fact. Alcohol is often a convenient excuse. Penn State didn’t raise these idiots.

 

[flash86]

It is a big issue on most campuses. And hormones, alcohol, being away from home, etc. are all factors that make it a challenge to resolve.

I'm not sure than anyone is blaming the administration, though this thread has taken some turns that I hadn't anticipated. I started the thread, and my comments about the administration, at least regarding the town hall that they held on the subject with the limit that I can only go on articles about the event, were that they were atrocious. And I stand by that comment.

Parents have very little impact on the situation, whether they are parents of sons or of daughters. I doubt you'll find any parent that wants their offspring to be a party, on either side of the equation, to sexual violence. As their offspring are adults, and are living away from how, there isn't a lot that the parents can do about the day-to-day decisions that their offspring make at college.

Agreed Tom. The relative tone deafness of the comments as reported, compared to some other schools (I have been following this issue as I pay tuition to several universities right now!) is disappointing, especially given Barron’s responses to many other issues.

Also surprised by some of the board responses, as the cited article didn’t prosecute anybody, accuse anybody, or assume automated guilt on the part of anybody.

 

[TiogaLion]

It is a big issue on most campuses. And hormones, alcohol, being away from home, etc. are all factors that make it a challenge to resolve.

I'm not sure than anyone is blaming the administration, though this thread has taken some turns that I hadn't anticipated. I started the thread, and my comments about the administration, at least regarding the town hall that they held on the subject with the limit that I can only go on articles about the event, were that they were atrocious. And I stand by that comment.

Parents have very little impact on the situation, whether they are parents of sons or of daughters. I doubt you'll find any parent that wants their offspring to be a party, on either side of the equation, to sexual violence. As their offspring are adults, and are living away from how, there isn't a lot that the parents can do about the day-to-day decisions that their offspring make at college.

Tom, if a student is at a party and they accidentally bump into some girls boobs with their elbow and if it makes her or anyone that witnessed the accident feel uncomfortable that can be reported as sexual assault. The crazies are running the asylum. I'd be willing to bet that Penn State is the only school in the country that would actually file that complaint.

 

[Nohow]

It is a big issue on most campuses. And hormones, alcohol, being away from home, etc. are all factors that make it a challenge to resolve.

I'm not sure than anyone is blaming the administration, though this thread has taken some turns that I hadn't anticipated. I started the thread, and my comments about the administration, at least regarding the town hall that they held on the subject with the limit that I can only go on articles about the event, were that they were atrocious. And I stand by that comment.

Parents have very little impact on the situation, whether they are parents of sons or of daughters. I doubt you'll find any parent that wants their offspring to be a party, on either side of the equation, to sexual violence. As their offspring are adults, and are living away from how, there isn't a lot that the parents can do about the day-to-day decisions that their offspring make at college.

No, some are blaming the admin for the very idea of this reporting, even though it is clear that the reports are initiated by victims and witnesses. For example, see the response to your post above. The idea that this is something spuriously forced on students by the admin is an excuse used in this thread by the misogynists and the politically motivated who crusade against “cancel culture“.
The usual suspects.

 

[Nohow]

Tom, if a student is at a party and they accidentally bump into some girls boobs with their elbow and if it makes her or anyone that witnessed the accident feel uncomfortable that can be reported as sexual assault. The crazies are running the asylum. I'd be willing to bet that Penn State is the only school in the country that would actually file that complaint.

Is that a real example or a figment of your fevered imagination? Are they all this trivial? Or would such be quite unusual?

 

[Nohow]

I'd be willing to bet that Penn State is the only school in the country that would actually file that complaint.

Since the students would have to file the complaints, that means PSU students are pretty stupid compared to their peers.

 

[PSUFTG]

Tom, if a student is at a party and they accidentally bump into some girls boobs with their elbow and if it makes her or anyone that witnessed the accident feel uncomfortable that can be reported as sexual assault. The crazies are running the asylum. I'd be willing to bet that Penn State is the only school in the country that would actually file that complaint.

There are really two issues here, though most won't try to separate them.

Issue 1 is Sexual Assaults at College. I don't want to say on campus, since many, if not most, occur in off campus settings. Cases that would fit the parameters of what most reasonable people would consider a Sexual Assault. Issue 1 is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, though exactly what a university can do to address it is somewhat limited, but not completely out of their hands. Any effective measures would likely involve not only the universities, but also other institutions.

Issue 2 is the University's Defining, Reporting, and Handling of "Sexual Assault" cases, many/most of which are not what any reasonable person would consider sexual assault. Certainly would not fit into what are considered Sexual Assault parameters in criminal statutes. As of now, Penn State's (and probably many other universities) handling of these issues has been such that it serves neither the accused or the aggrieved parties very well. Those who are legitimately aggrieved are often left worse off from the University protocols than they were to start - and many of the accused lives are damaged, even destroyed, through ridiculous and inept, and possibly prejudiced, administrative failures.

Both issues are problems.