Spencer Smith on UK's screening problems
- Thread starter akaukswoosh
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Yea, some super good breakdown from him. To me, it seems like that maybe the offense is run about half speed to 3/4 speed in practice, and they’ve generated some bad habits. Good thing is, like he said, very fixable.
We obviously ghosted the first screen because Noah’s defender drops and overplays the hedge. People love to pick single plays on X and analyze it like they know the call. How can you claim to be a scout and not understand ghosting a screen as a shooter?
If it was a ghost screen then the goal would have been to shoot.. except they didn't pass him the ball. Also, the defender gave him room to shoot which is telling of our horrid 3 point %.
I just hope the guys are having fun. At the end od the day that is what it's all about.
The offense gets to go against our defense in practice
Yeah, IF the defender stays. Colin’s man trailed behind him because Aberdeens man was in help to prevent the drive to the basket and not attached. Noah’s man was able to recover before Colin had a passing angle. Clearly a ghost because the flex cut at the beginning was to take away Noah potential help if his man didn’t recover.
That does happen a lot. Anyone can find blown plays from any team in any game if they want.
The OKC Thunder and the Denver Nuggets are playing at about as an elite level as possible.
But both teams have blown plays every game.
I hope that was tongue in cheek because they are paid entertainment. They don't have fun, we do.
Agreed. Totally ghosted it off a read by Noah. Not sure he made the right read. Obviously the help was scripted to come from DA's man. They weren't switching, so why not just set a good ball screen. They were going over, Devries is underneath (not feathering because the help is somewhere else), so set a good hard screen and then Noah can lift. Then again, I kinda thought Noah had a look on the ghost as well. You could definitely tell IU was going to help off DA and OO when they were on the court and didn't have the ball in their hands.
Agree 100%. Also thought that when Oweh seen Chandler couldn’t drive, he cut have cut back door on Devries recovered the hedge and allowed DA to slide to the corner for an open look but they stood and ball watched.
He’s right, but it also helps to have your best playmaker Lowe getting a screen from a non shooting big, Mo. The same could be said if BG or Moreno set the screen. Holding it would be their only read.
My question is this, why are these terrible things happening after all this practice time with this team? What do we actually work on in practice. A screen like that should be bench worthy at this level of basketball. Basic little things show me our coaches don’t emphasize any of this stuff because they all do it!
Couple of thoughts.....
From the Purdue game to the MSU game, UK actually started games well. In all but one had a mult-basket lead 5-7 minutes into the game. Since the MSU game, the complete opposite has occurred. For sure better competition is a factor. But UK switched out Garrison for Moreno and Mo D has been out hurt. The result is the start games has been the complete opposite. UK has been even or worse in all games 5-7 minutes into the game.
Seeing some of these opening sets and the ghost screens by Moreno I can't help but wonder if they are related. Obviously its not all on him but if those are ghost screens....if they are by design, why are they running that to start games? You have to set that up to be effective. Or is Moreno reading it wrong and doing his own thing, messing up the play from the jump?
From the Purdue game to the MSU game, UK actually started games well. In all but one had a mult-basket lead 5-7 minutes into the game. Since the MSU game, the complete opposite has occurred. For sure better competition is a factor. But UK switched out Garrison for Moreno and Mo D has been out hurt. The result is the start games has been the complete opposite. UK has been even or worse in all games 5-7 minutes into the game.
Seeing some of these opening sets and the ghost screens by Moreno I can't help but wonder if they are related. Obviously its not all on him but if those are ghost screens....if they are by design, why are they running that to start games? You have to set that up to be effective. Or is Moreno reading it wrong and doing his own thing, messing up the play from the jump?
It honestly makes zero sense for that to be a ghost screen, and we have run this set before and it's never been a ghost screen, so it's simply just not a ghost screen, people are just trying to justify it.
And even if it WAS a ghost screen (which again, it's definitely not) that is not how you do it. You don't jog/loaf over to it at 40% speed and then lazily start running the other way.
You SPRINT into it and really sell like you are going to set it (shouting "screen coming, screen coming, I got you Colin!") and then you HARD JAB into your cut. Moreno did nothing. He jogged at 40% speed and lazily just kinda banana'd into the cut. And it's just clearly not meant to be a ghost screen.
This is simply a poorly coached team. Offense and defense. More defense but just poorly coached. Guys aren't getting better because they aren't being coached to get better. Where is the individual instruction if there is going to be no team coaching?
I chalked it to the players last year being cobbled together in a second. Then injuries. There's no game preparation. Pope can't be so unlucky that he's gotten every player that's uncoachable. Some guys are, of course. But all??
Not one player has come to UK with Pope as their first college coach and been able to play defense or gotten better at defense. Noah? Chandler? Perry? Jasper? Moreno? Who am I missing? The only players on the UK team that can play any defense at all came to UK with it from being coached elsewhere. Sometimes there just too many coincidences to be coincidental.
Not one player has improved his rebounding under Pope. Offensive rebounding is one thing. A guy either has that in him or not. They can be coached up some but a guy can't be taught some aspects of offensive rebounding. Defensive rebounding they can absolutely be taught and improved upon. You can't turn a turd into Oscar. But you can teach fundamentals of defensive rebounding. Except at UK it's not.
This is as bad as it gets coaching wise. So what if Pope is a great cheerleader? Let him coach them.
It's not a practice issue, it's guys going through the motions, not taking their roles seriously. That whole play you had Moreno just jogging around half-court, doing NOTHING to help his teammates and then coming out of a spot where he was at a big advtange because he was desperate to get the ball. You had Aberdeen trying to go one-on-one instead of looking for an open man. These guys know the plays. It's a matter of executing them in-game.
Bingo. These were ghost screens that he shows, thinking he sees something lazy.
Perfectly encapsulates today's society. One person not knowing what they're talking about convinced other people who also don't know what they're talking about; and now the reach makes the original offender look informed.
@bigblueinsanity (the real) see above ^^ it definitely wasn't a ghost screen and we have run that play before and it's never been a ghost screen, plus that's not even how you do a ghost screen. There is NO COACH IN AMERICA who coaches there player saying, "okay, let's run a ghost screen! Malachi, be sure to only jog about 40% speed on your way over there and then be sure not to cut hard when it comes time to ghost it! Don't need you going to hard on this play"
Does that sound right to you at all?
And there's no reason to ghost that screen, gives you zero advantage. And even if you wanted to ghost it, doing it at half speed does you zero good. Can you explain that?
And the Trent Noah one, who on Earth coaches players to come to a 2-foot stop before ghosting a screen? Again, same thing, we have run that before and it's never been a ghost screen, and if that was a super, super poor attempt at one, then that's even worse because Noah clearly has no idea how a ghost screen works. So pick your poison.
And didn't the dude who posted the video used to coach division 1 basketball at multiple schools? And multiple other coaches (Brandon Ramsey, Shawn Smith, Greg Mason from Centre College, etc.) all replied and agreed. So who should we trust here? All of them? Or BigBlueInsanity on RuppRafters?
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We haven’t screened anyone this season and kinda alarming we refuse to set screens and block out……..basic fundamentals you learn in 4th grade. It worries me how this goes on the road in SEC when execution is a must.
I don’t know about the Moreno one. I agree with him on it. It looks like the ball handler started too early and he tried to rush and get to the 2nd action. Or it could have just been a lazy screen he didn’t set. I really didn’t watch the second clip because of how wrong he was on the first.
The first clip with Noah is an absolute ghost screen. It doesn’t make sense to not be a ghost because there are two help defenders and Noah can’t cut off of it because of the low post in the way. You could make the argument of Chandler came off looking to shoot but he was driving all the way. But that’s just one of the reads. The other is to draw help and kick to a shooter but Chandlers man played it correctly by trailing on his hip funneling him towards help side and taking away the passing angle back to Noah. Devries hedged just long enough to stop the drive for read #2. Noah popped open but the angle for the pass wasn’t there because of the chasers position. Sometimes the defense makes the correct play.
And you do literally come to a two foot stop before flaring to a shooting spot or cut to the basket on a ghost screen. That’s how it’s taught. You’re thinking of a slip I assume. Surely you don’t think every read and react play is ran the same against every team with the same screens always being set? How easy would that be to scout?
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, idk what you are looking at here.
I feel like you are confusing a ghost screen with a pick and pop, it's the only explanation for where you are pulling this from.
This is a ghost screen:
Literally the first 20 seconds of the video explains it, a ghost screen is "Someone who is going over to set a ball screen, and when they get to the on-ball defender, instead of setting the screen by planting their feet and trying to make contact, they are actually going to AVOID the on-ball defender and slip out to the perimeter with no contact"
How about another example with more clips:
How many of those do you see a guy come to a 2 foot stop? The answer is zero. Feel free to give me a time stamp for where you see a guy come to a full 2 foot stop on any of those clips?
I also asked ChatGPT to define a ghost screen in basketball, and it replied, "a ghost screen is a fake screen where a player sprints toward the ball-handler as if to set a pick, but then slips away to open space (usually the perimeter) at the last second instead of coming to a stop and making contact."
And I almost feel like we're watching 2 different plays- you said "Devries hedged just long enough"....Devries didn't hedge. That's not a hedge. That is a textbook drop coverage. Where do you see Devries hedging that screen? He is in a very clear and obvious drop coverage about 2-3 feet back, not even facing the right direction to hedge the screen (when you hedge the screen you are ABOVE the screen action with toes pointed towards the sideline). Unless we don't know what hedging a ballscreen is, which again is fine but I was a HS coach for 15 years and that is not hedging the ball screen, it's a drop coverage.
At NO POINT do you really want to make contact with the defender, come to a stop, or play off 2 feet. Trent Noah does ALL 3 OF THOSE THINGS. Ghost screens are meant to be quick sprint ups and you peel out of it before getting there, Noah doesn't do that, he flat out goes to set a screen, even touching the defender with both arms.
The absolute last thing you want to do on a ghost screen is actually make any contact with the defender on the ball-handler, and you absolutely NEVER want to come to a stop on it- there is no way you can watch the clip of Noah and try to claim that he doesn't come to pretty much a full stop, AND he makes contact with the primary defender.
This is a textbook pick and pop where the screen just isn't very good.
But again, not going to argue about this, pretty much all the coaches on twitter seem to agree on this, and the clip is clear as day that he stops, puts both arms up to make contact with the defender, and then pops for a shot. It's a pick and pop, plain as day.
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I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then. When I learned it in college and every camp I’ve been part of since teaches players to set a fake screen before the cut to ghost it. We don’t teach them to run run up and veer off unless their man yells to switch really early. Just like almost all these guys in this video with clips from the league. Elite speed and quick release, go for it. But that’s not Trent Noah.
Same with hedging. We either ran hard, soft, or drop. Anytime the screener’s man jumped out early instead of letting the defender just fight over or go under to protect against a drive we called it a hedge. It’s not really worth arguing over the semantics of it all. It’s like arguing the difference between a flare, rip or back screen when a lot of people call them all the same thing when teaching. I’m still convinced it was a ghost screen. lol
WTF....you're joking right?
"It's not how you play the game, it's if you win or lose"..........Ozzy Osbourne.
There are variations and reads built into our sets. We can run what looks like, or is, the same set and the player has the option to either set the screen, slip it, or ghost it all based on the D. So you're getting multiple looks from the exact same action.
That's what makes this offense so hard to defend, when we bother running it.
So you're seeing some poor reads from players. Not poor effort.
Are you the Twitter account that posted the video breakdown?
I'll agree with you there. What looks like poor effort can many times be just being lost.
This feels like we're addressing a symptom rather than the disease. Yes they have trouble executing basic plays against higher level teams. Anyone who's watched already knows this.
The full UK/MSU game is on youtube. Watching the first few possessions, every time Garrison comes over to set a screen for the ball handler he cuts it off early and dives to the rim. I don't care if these are ghost screens or not, but it appears to be by design vs reading the defense and reacting. I find it hard to believe that whether its Garrison or Moreno, both guys decide to not set a strong screen or just "ghost" it.
The content creator in the videos above indicated "its so fixable". That is true if the intent was to set a real ball screen and the player doesn't do it. But if they action we see is by design by Pope....it is not fixable unless Pope changes his offense.
The content creator in the videos above indicated "its so fixable". That is true if the intent was to set a real ball screen and the player doesn't do it. But if they action we see is by design by Pope....it is not fixable unless Pope changes his offense.
Man...I've seen a BUNCH of this from this version of Pope's Cats. Soooooo much ball watching on offense.