Hear me out because I know that sounds crazy. My point is, it's going to be hard for UK to find another guy that does the "other things" as well as Stoops; ie program mgt, recruitment, personnel, media, accountability. The thing he has struggled a bit with to this point is game mgt and development. These are all characteristics of a first time head coach. And we should have known that when we hired him. My point being, if we can improve those two things, he will be a hell of a good coach. I don't see the advantage of hiring another guy and hoping he does better. I think this program needs this stability and at worst, if he does fail, the program will have a more solid foundation for the next guy.
Stoops should get 6-7 years almost no matter what.
- Thread starter KumarCat
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Stoops deserves PLENTY of time. This WILL not fix that quickly. I expect the true progress next year more than this year but there is a good shot at 6 this time
Yep. His coaching has yet to match his recruiting prowess... Or maybe both aspects stink.
5-7 with last year's abysmal schedule should be unacceptable by any standard.
Regardless of his "first time HC" status, Coach Stoops needs to start looking like a competent coach on the sidelines. His teams need to start looking well prepared/disciplined. This is major college FB.....not a Rec-League volunteer coaching gig. Another losing season and he is in trouble. Good luck Coach and Cats!
He has two years to make a bowl game. So long as that doesn't look like 6-6 this year and 3-9 the next, that is really all it will take for him to have beyond even 2018. He's not getting bought out after this year. He's got better job security than some people think.
I agree with the Op that Stoops needs 6-8 years unless it's just a coaching disaster or he just looks simply inept.I like how he has made some changes in the staff this past season. I would like it if he made some additional changes in the staff this upcoming season if the play of our lines does not Improve.
If the defensive line blows like it did last year Brumbaugh needs to be replaced. He come from a Juco program so what do you expect, has not recruited well relies on other people recruiting his position for him. we are Kentucky a SEC program we should be able to hire very nice developed coaches who are able to recruit and coach up the players at least in two years. he has now been here for three and a half years this will be his fourth year and so far we have had occasional good play from some players it takes them till their senior year and they have played good for two or three games and that's about it. the players that we have had drafted like Bud for example was drafted on their athletic ability and not their skill. I have read several articles on how raw they were.
also if our line that's in a 3-4 cannot penetrate stop the run or get to the quarterback, the quarterback has all day to find his targets that is simply unacceptable. If that's the case then two things need to happen the defensive line coach needs to go or switch to a 4-3 instead. our defensive backs and safeties are exceptional they look and play like they are well coached. but they cannot simply hound and cover them 7-8 seconds without some space being given up and the opposing quarterback to throw it to them or just running around our lines.
Western Kentucky can have a staff that looks like it's SEC quality then surely to goodness Kentucky can put a staff together that looks SEC worthy. Wugh the changes Stoops made this past offseason with the hiring of Hinshaw Gran and LT that's a step in the right direction.
If the defensive line blows like it did last year Brumbaugh needs to be replaced. He come from a Juco program so what do you expect, has not recruited well relies on other people recruiting his position for him. we are Kentucky a SEC program we should be able to hire very nice developed coaches who are able to recruit and coach up the players at least in two years. he has now been here for three and a half years this will be his fourth year and so far we have had occasional good play from some players it takes them till their senior year and they have played good for two or three games and that's about it. the players that we have had drafted like Bud for example was drafted on their athletic ability and not their skill. I have read several articles on how raw they were.
also if our line that's in a 3-4 cannot penetrate stop the run or get to the quarterback, the quarterback has all day to find his targets that is simply unacceptable. If that's the case then two things need to happen the defensive line coach needs to go or switch to a 4-3 instead. our defensive backs and safeties are exceptional they look and play like they are well coached. but they cannot simply hound and cover them 7-8 seconds without some space being given up and the opposing quarterback to throw it to them or just running around our lines.
Western Kentucky can have a staff that looks like it's SEC quality then surely to goodness Kentucky can put a staff together that looks SEC worthy. Wugh the changes Stoops made this past offseason with the hiring of Hinshaw Gran and LT that's a step in the right direction.
this isn't Brooks, it's not like he has other examples of effective head coaching results. if this year doesn't show significant improvement he needs to go; the risk he's not up to the task would be too great. to hang on to him after another lackluster year just says those in power have run out of ideas, money and options. clean house.
He may not get fired, but if he has another season with a collapse and no bowl game he will lose a bunch more fans and that will hurt the bottom line. That is one thing that will get Mitch's attention and hopefully he doesn't alienate the fans again with a microwave comment if that happens. Hopefully he does well and gets everyone back on board the bandwagon. That would be the best thing that can happen.
He has two years to show on field improvement, or he should not have his contract extended. You don't pay a guy millions a year to lose on the field. On top of that Commonwealth would be empty if he does't start winning.
Outside of recruiting prowess/connection how can you argue any of the other points that Stoops does well compared to another coach UK could get?
- Program mgmt? Was hiring Shannon Dawson a good idea? Hanging on to Schlarman this long...has that been a good idea? No special teams coach was that a good idea? The move to a 3-4 (which has never worked at UK) has not proven to be a good idea yet?
- Personnel is probably Stoops worse trait as UK coach? Do our kids really improve/grow in their college career? Alot of our highly touted kids haven't played like it (Towles, Dorian Baker, none of our OL, Flannigan, Hatcher, Big Z had a bad Sr year, etc..). What current UK player looks like a NFL player that Stoops has on roster (Westry, Boom maybe)
Bottom line, Stoops recruiting is the only thing that has been very good. But that is possibly going to dry up a bit if we don't win/make a bowl game. He needs to win ball games (i.e. beat Vandy, UL and start swipping some games from Miss St) and also needs to stop with so many blow outs. He probably will get the 6 years due to only that silly extension Barnhart gave out...but the attendance at UK games will be falling off if the season starts to go south.
Job Security = Mitch's evaluation. No kidding he has job security. Shocker. Basically, run a clean ship, donate time to community, be a good person and you'll get the nod. Let's go to Africa and brush away the buzzing flies off starving kids...build an irrigation system = contract extension.
The criteria of Winning? Meh.
But what should be Stoop's performance evaluation is another matter. The bottom line is this. Look at last year's results. Inexcusable loss to Vandy. Barely beat a crap USC, EKU, ULL, Mizzou (great we won, but clearly no too much better than horrendous opponent)...and flat out destroyed by UL, MSU,UT & UGA. Florida and Auburn we played competent defense and lost.
Stoops calling card is defense. Stop a read/option QB for ONCE, and I'll change my tune. But color me unimpressed with the development or preparation of the current players. I can't look to a consistent performer on both sides of the ball. It's sad, really.
Even when we had Pro's like Bud, or to a lesser extent Z'darius, both guys would vanish in games. Playing out of position and getting worked.
But if I were AD, winning and in-game adjustments would be my first criteria for judging a coach's performance...all the other executive stuff be just that. Stuff. Play by rules, don't be a miscreant... Check.
Problem for us long-suffering fans, Mitch can't separate the two.
It seems sometimes fans can be their own worst enemies. I have been enjoying the building process, but even the structural process is incomplete. The construction of the facilities process is straight forward, there is no winning or losing, just completing, and yet it isn't even done yet. Why? Well because it takes a certain amount of time to do, and all the whining and crying, and complaining, and threatening, and hiring and firing isn't going to change the fact...it takes a certain amount of time to complete construction, period. Building a football program (not just a football team, but a sustainable program) takes time as well and there is no guarantee of the outcome(unlike construction) or the time frame...no matter how badly you want it. If a program is moving in the right direction (which ours is), you see where it will take you. You can't just start over every time something doesn't go your way or you run into some difficulty. I would strongly suggest you give Stoops all the time he needs rather than threaten his job before the construction of the facilities is even complete...for Christ's sake. Winning is the final component to building a program.
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You are free to disagree and some of what you said is true, IMO. Big picture here is a consideration. Playing by the rules, don't be a miscreant, in-game adjustments --- all great. Six decades of UK football history shows that it's not easy. If you do those things at UK, most every other coach UK would have would still be playing at a huge talent disadvantage. Stoops is perhaps the only one who is showing he can drastically reduce the talent disadvantage.
Very well stated. I think on top of what you said, he's particularly ripe for exposure. His fired offensive coordinator is coming into town the first week of the season and is formerly benched QB will not only be playing on national television against Clemson and Florida State, but will also be playing a common opponent in Louisville. I don't think there will be any middle ground. He will either be vindicated or exposed, and that will be strictly based on whether the Cats are winning or losing, not on the merits of either prior decision.
The fan base has previously demonstrated that they will stay home. I personally believe a 5 win season this year will actually be pretty impressive and would warrant keeping him around.
Phil Steele, who was on Tom Leach's show a few days ago said that for KY to go to a bowl game this year he thought they were going to have to complete on at least 60% of their passes. I think the only first year full time starter who has done that was Tim Couch. They threw the ball over 500 times that year, which you are not likely to see under Coach Stoops.
I don't know if he should automatically get that kind of run, but honestly, who the hell else are we going to hire that A. can bring in talent B. can coach and C. wants to come to a place like this and D. wants to stay here? I doubt there's anyone out there that can fulfill all 4. Hell, maybe Stoops can't, but he at least can get most of them. I don't think we have much of a choice but to ride it out, even without a bowl game this year. Bill Parcells isn't walking through that door.
I agree that UK football fans can be their own worst enemy. It seems that some just cannot grasp that Stoops recruits, the better players on the roster, are just now becoming upperclassmen. Those players are good football players but they need time to develop and are not the level of players UT has recruited or the level that Ole MIss recruited to catapult their program so fast.
Some of our fans just keep insisting that players fresh out of high school should compete with upper tier SEC teams. I can tell they think this because they refer to an enormously backloaded SEC schedule as a collapse continually. The one game I felt Kentucky played beneath their ability under Stoops was last years Vanderbilt game, even then some of the trick plays we fell for were run against one of our best freshman CB. Kentucky's performance in that back loaded schedule with young and developing players is not as much collapse as it was a predicted performance by a thin and young roster against some of the stronger teams in the nation.
I'm not saying that there is no learning curve for a first time head coach in the SEC, there is and it is steep, but that does not mean learning is not taking place.
I also think it is fair to say that for a young coach learning the job in the SEC Stoops has not felt comfortable with his staff to this point. He now has the OC he wanted from the start on his staff, also true QB coach, and I expect that to be a relief to Stoops and will afford him the comfort level that will allow him to delegate authority and free his time up to concentrate on the head coaches normal range of direction.
I expect Stoops to be a bit more relaxed this year confident he has the coaches he has wanted in place to continue the building of Kentucky's two-deep roster.
Some of our fans just keep insisting that players fresh out of high school should compete with upper tier SEC teams. I can tell they think this because they refer to an enormously backloaded SEC schedule as a collapse continually. The one game I felt Kentucky played beneath their ability under Stoops was last years Vanderbilt game, even then some of the trick plays we fell for were run against one of our best freshman CB. Kentucky's performance in that back loaded schedule with young and developing players is not as much collapse as it was a predicted performance by a thin and young roster against some of the stronger teams in the nation.
I'm not saying that there is no learning curve for a first time head coach in the SEC, there is and it is steep, but that does not mean learning is not taking place.
I also think it is fair to say that for a young coach learning the job in the SEC Stoops has not felt comfortable with his staff to this point. He now has the OC he wanted from the start on his staff, also true QB coach, and I expect that to be a relief to Stoops and will afford him the comfort level that will allow him to delegate authority and free his time up to concentrate on the head coaches normal range of direction.
I expect Stoops to be a bit more relaxed this year confident he has the coaches he has wanted in place to continue the building of Kentucky's two-deep roster.
I am looking for better coaching decisions from Stoops and the staff. He has yet to show he can manage a game from start to finish. Depth and quality of players contributes to this but a few games got away from us that a solid coach would not have allowed.
Not a chance Stoops is fired after this season, regardless of record. Only exception is if he abuses players, and he wouldn't get fired then if Barnhart considers him a "dear friend." Much more terrifying than Stoops getting fired would be Barnhart given the reins to hire another football coach...
Looking at tea leaves I doubt Barnhart hires next coach at UK my money would be on Derrick Ramsey . I think he will be next AD and I don't think Barnhart retires at UK.
Southern Miss, Austin Peay, New Mexico St, are games that should be wins. South Carolina and Missouri are in massive transition mode this year and are not predicted to be very good. Mississippi St is expected to field their worst team since Stoops became the head coach at Kentucky. Vanderbilt at home is the kind of game that a Coach this far into his tenure should win. Those games alone should represent a path to six wins. If he can't achieve at least six wins this season with the team he has in place against this schedule then I don't see him ever getting Kentucky to a bowl.
The history of failure at UK shouldn't be set as the standard here unless you feel that UK football has been run at optimum performance level over those years. UK football has been neglected and/or made so many terrible decisions through the years that's hard to use much of any of the failures of the past as an example of what to actually expect from UK football.
Bottom line, UK football has been garbage far too often. The fact that fans who are typically desperate for any signs of hope can't see much variance today from those pitiful eras, isn't a source of much comfort or understanding.
The overwhelming majority of unhappy UK fans simply want UK to get back to the Rich Brooks levels of competitiveness. That's more than wins and losses. That's not spending one entire half of seasons getting THROTTLED by every team with a pulse. We're not asking for much.
Bottom line is that this is it for Stoops. Continue to roll out a disaster this season and it's over. They can delay this for another season due to his buy out, but it will only deepen the slumber that will exist between UK football and their fans.
Lastly, if the best defense for Stoops is that the mess he is cleaning up was so immense that it might take 6-8 years to clean it up, then that should mean that Barnhart needs to be gone. The fact that it was ever allowed to sink that low under his watch would be inexcusable and his presence is only harming Stoops in his ability to "clean up the mess" created by the previous regime.
So, either Barnhart was negligent in his duties or the rebuilding process is not nearly as awful as it's being portrayed. It's got to be at least one of them.
This is an accurate and well-crafted post that gets to the real issue.
The problem with this is that you can't just name a number of years that a coach has. The number of years a coach has depends on how able he is to maintain enthusiasm. And we can see by the poor attendance in the spring that enthusiasm is going down hill. During the first 3 years coaches need to establish that the patience they are asking for will actually pay off. We gave Bill Curry a ton of patience and it was the dumbest thing we have ever done as a program. It was clear in year 1 that Curry couldn't manage a program. Similar to Stoops Curry was an old school defense first guy that improved our recruiting well beyond what we had previous. It was clear by the misuse of talent just improving recruiting wasn't going to be enough. Give Bill Curry a Tim Couch and a Craig Yeast and you still have a train wreck. Give Hal Mumme those players and it's a different story.
We also gave Rich Brooks patience and it was the smartest thing we did. Brooks' situation however was very different from what Curry had or what Stoops had at the beginning. Stoops needs to justify the patience that we are being asked to give him. If you win only 3 or 4 games in year one but one of those was an upset over LSU then that's good. Don't pull off an upset and instead get upset by WKU then the leach gets shorter. Have an explosive offense that fans want to watch and recruits want to play in that's good. Have an offense that badly misuses talent and comes off as a total disaster and you cycle through QB's and OC's then the leach gets really really short. From the Bill Curry example above it was clear that talent wasn't the issue. You could give Curry as much talent as you wanted and it would never get better. I'm not to the point yet with Stoops that I believe that it is as hopeless as Curry was but I still need convincing that talent alone will matter. I don't believe Stoops at this point is making the most of what he has.
The problem for Stoops is that during his first 3 years he has done a really poor job justifying the patience we are being asked to give. We have been upset by teams we should beat. We haven't upset anyone noteworthy. The offense has been really bad to the point of being unwatchable at times. We don't always have players playing in the right positions and we often don't use players within the system to the best of their abilities. Those are things that coaches can control.
Stoops doesn't have more job security than many believe because at the end of the day it isn't up to MB. Athletic Directors don't fire coaches empty seats do. Stoops' main claim to fame so far has been recruiting and that will dry up almost completely if we fail to win 6 this year. Fan support is already plummeting. The program is no longer moving forward without wins. It will start to go back downward after this season without a winning season. You can give him 6 or 7 years at that point but you will be wasting your time.
Also a couple points that I would also like to make. First it is not true that freshmen don't do well in the SEC. This is something that gets repeated because it sounds like it makes sense but it's not true. Nick Chubb did quite well his freshman year as did several other players. Freshmen start all the time for just about every team in the league. Maybe Bama doesn't start freshmen much but they are the only one. Also it is not correct that we have primarily played freshmen. We started 3 seniors on our DL last year and 2 of the 4 LBs were seniors. We do have freshmen and sophs in the line up but we also have a healthy amount of upper classmen. And those upper classmen were very good. Just to name a few from the first 3 years you have Zadarius, Bud Dupree, Avery Williamson, Josh Forrest, CJ and AJ Stamps. Also Towles was a 4th year junior. I do agree that as Stoops recruits become upper classmen the performance will get better but we have had a healthy number of very good upper classmen already.
We also gave Rich Brooks patience and it was the smartest thing we did. Brooks' situation however was very different from what Curry had or what Stoops had at the beginning. Stoops needs to justify the patience that we are being asked to give him. If you win only 3 or 4 games in year one but one of those was an upset over LSU then that's good. Don't pull off an upset and instead get upset by WKU then the leach gets shorter. Have an explosive offense that fans want to watch and recruits want to play in that's good. Have an offense that badly misuses talent and comes off as a total disaster and you cycle through QB's and OC's then the leach gets really really short. From the Bill Curry example above it was clear that talent wasn't the issue. You could give Curry as much talent as you wanted and it would never get better. I'm not to the point yet with Stoops that I believe that it is as hopeless as Curry was but I still need convincing that talent alone will matter. I don't believe Stoops at this point is making the most of what he has.
The problem for Stoops is that during his first 3 years he has done a really poor job justifying the patience we are being asked to give. We have been upset by teams we should beat. We haven't upset anyone noteworthy. The offense has been really bad to the point of being unwatchable at times. We don't always have players playing in the right positions and we often don't use players within the system to the best of their abilities. Those are things that coaches can control.
Stoops doesn't have more job security than many believe because at the end of the day it isn't up to MB. Athletic Directors don't fire coaches empty seats do. Stoops' main claim to fame so far has been recruiting and that will dry up almost completely if we fail to win 6 this year. Fan support is already plummeting. The program is no longer moving forward without wins. It will start to go back downward after this season without a winning season. You can give him 6 or 7 years at that point but you will be wasting your time.
Also a couple points that I would also like to make. First it is not true that freshmen don't do well in the SEC. This is something that gets repeated because it sounds like it makes sense but it's not true. Nick Chubb did quite well his freshman year as did several other players. Freshmen start all the time for just about every team in the league. Maybe Bama doesn't start freshmen much but they are the only one. Also it is not correct that we have primarily played freshmen. We started 3 seniors on our DL last year and 2 of the 4 LBs were seniors. We do have freshmen and sophs in the line up but we also have a healthy amount of upper classmen. And those upper classmen were very good. Just to name a few from the first 3 years you have Zadarius, Bud Dupree, Avery Williamson, Josh Forrest, CJ and AJ Stamps. Also Towles was a 4th year junior. I do agree that as Stoops recruits become upper classmen the performance will get better but we have had a healthy number of very good upper classmen already.
I understand the notion that it takes time. But, I'm living in Houston and Tom Herman didn't need as much time. Different league, I get it. But, if you don't think his team is already better prepared, more disciplined, better coached than ours, you're not looking very closely. They play in a Podunk league in a new but tiny stadium and he's landing 4* and 5* recruits. I know they're in his back yard but no one else has been able to lure the big-time recruits to UH like Herman has. Plus, he's already beaten FSU in a bowl game and they are highly ranked preseason this year.
Houston wasn't as far down as UK and have a much, much easier league to dominate. Doesn't change the fact that UH doesn't call timeout in order to get organized for a FG attempt or only have 8 men on the field for a punt or have multiple other ST breakdowns. On paper, we've got a more talent than UH but I wouldn't want to play them. It would get ugly really, really quickly, imo.
I'm not in the 'Bowl Game or Bust' crowd but I'm also tired of hearing how we need another 2-3 years of 'rebuilding' before we should expect winning football. Stoops has been around the game and coaching for a long, long time. It's past time he figured some of this stuff out and looked like he belongs on an SEC sideline as a head coach.
Houston wasn't as far down as UK and have a much, much easier league to dominate. Doesn't change the fact that UH doesn't call timeout in order to get organized for a FG attempt or only have 8 men on the field for a punt or have multiple other ST breakdowns. On paper, we've got a more talent than UH but I wouldn't want to play them. It would get ugly really, really quickly, imo.
I'm not in the 'Bowl Game or Bust' crowd but I'm also tired of hearing how we need another 2-3 years of 'rebuilding' before we should expect winning football. Stoops has been around the game and coaching for a long, long time. It's past time he figured some of this stuff out and looked like he belongs on an SEC sideline as a head coach.
I got to say his game management and not his coaching (it is his staff coaching and hiring) that has not been up to par - but one cannot say his and HIS STAFF recruiting stink - when you lose recruits to OSU / MSU/ UM /FSU/ ALA etc. - you and your staff have picked some pretty darn good recruits
I say 6 wins is happening this season - Drank on dat milk!
Outstanding post TBCat.
You hit several things on the head.
Especially, "empty seats fire coaches"
Too late. Season ticket sales are miserable.
Time is now to win. If we don't, the '17 recruiting class will fall apart and we'll be steaming in a downward trajectory.
Yeah, I understand they did him a special favor last year and let him play in the Big East instead of the SEC East.
The 5-7 record last season bothers me less than the fact that the for the final half of the season, UK looked like they where coached by if Joker Phillips and Bill Curry created a baby head coach named Biker Phurry.
As is well documented the SEC East was about as bad as it will ever be last year. The schedule was stacked for at least 6 wins.
This. I don't mind a bad team, but I cannot tolerate an incompetent team. At points we couldn't even line up to lose properly
Perfectly stated. A hard fought, well played game resulting in loss is a factor when playing in our league. It's acceptable.
Getting pistol whipped and ST gaffes in every game isn't.