I agree. When are politicians going to do something about armed carjackings, assaults, unsolved murders, and well-organized lootings of businesses? Chicago just passed 1,000 killings for the year.
Tate Myre
- Thread starter CSCatFan1
- Start date
Oh, look - a 50' x 50' blinking neon sign, telling the world this guy is a problem, so dad goes out and buys him a weapon. Mental illness doesn't get any worse than that. Dad should be hunted down with clubs and I don't care how sick he is.
The parents bare significant responsibility for this event. Not only did they buy a gun for a minor but they bought one for a kid who was having behavioral issues at school. This is negligent parenting. I think they deserve to be charged.
Last edited:
Nuclear weapons were also designed and manufactured to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible, and as a deterant to attacks by others. As such, do you believe the average citizen should have access to purchasing a nuclear weapon, to protect themselves, say, from a tyrannical government or do you believe access should be severely limited as it currently is? Where do you draw the line between this and your ordinary hunting rifle of single shot pistol?
Last edited:
This is the choice we seem unable to face: Hunting down the mentally ill with clubs or identifying those who need help and providing them treatment before they before they commit or are accessory to murder.
Don't press your luck. Congratulate all participants for not going political except in a general sense.
You are pressing your luck again. Of course they are, but great we have stuck to the issues for the most part and not the politics of various positions. The political attacks are what killed the rant board.
The issues are political ones though. I can guess each poster’s political party based on their responses in this thread.
Why don’t we just bring back the rant board and let adults debate freely again? Or turn the free board into a truly wild experience with all OT threads allowed as long as personal attacks are avoided?
Fans wanna know.
You maybe don't remember the free football board before the rant board. It was wild and crazy, with frequent and intense personal attacks. That's why the Rant Board was created. I disagree with the Mods for ending it, since it was an outlet for football fans to take intense feelings that were coming out on the football board. On the other hand, this thread has been respectful to the deaths of Tate Myre and the other four students, and I hope it stays that way as we discuss the issues that caused their deaths..
I don’t think it’s a bad gesture. I think it’s heartfelt in light of a terrible and tragic situation.
But, as always, Muck Fichigan.
NUCat 320: Obviously you have never purchased a firearm and don't have any idea of what information is collected at purchase and forwarded to the FBI's National Instant Background check for firearms transactions. Below is a small part of Form 4473 Firearms Transaction Record. I invite your attention to questions 11 a through i.
Please note that convicted felons, fugitives from justice, unlawful users of controlled substances (narcotics including marijuana), mental defectives, persons dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, persons subject to a domestic restraining order, persons convicted of a crime of domestic violence, are not allowed to own a firearm in the United States. By the way, if you lie on this form, it is a felony, and you will be subject to a felony charge and if convicted, sent to barbwire city, and you will never be able to own a firearm in the U.S.
Also, in Illinois, every Firearm Owners Identity card (FOID) holder is checked every night against the Illinois crime check database. Concealed carry permit holders are checked a second time each night in Illinois. The reason for doing this every night is to make sure that a law abiding citizen doesn't become unlawful and violate the right to own a firearm. This procedure should protect us, but, it is not foolproof.
Unfortunately, you can pass as many laws as you like to curb the spread of ILLEGAL guns, but the criminal element in our society has always been able to circumvent them for many reasons - one of which is lazy or incompetent prosecutors. If you're worried about people like me or kaTNap owning a gun you're diverting your attention away from the real problem. Just look at the firearm homicides committed in the city of Chicago. That would be a good place to start your gun control efforts. I am a concealed carry permit holder who teaches firearm safety to women and in civilian life I'm very happy to say I have never pointed my gun at, nor shot anyone. However, if any person threatened my family or me with deadly force, they would be making a really bad decision.
For Ryanfield124 from Ryan Field 129 Semper Fi from an 0311.
Here are the pertinent questions on Form BATF form 4473
11. Answer the following questions by checking or marking "yes" or "no" in the boxes to the right of the questions. Yes No
a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)
b. Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year? (See Instructions for Question 11.b.)
c. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation? (See Instructions for Question 11.c.)
d. Are you a fugitive from justice? (See Instructions for Question 11.d.)
e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.
f. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution? (See Instructions for Question 11.f.)
g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
h. Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner? (See Instructions for Question 11.h.)
i. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence? (See Instructions for Question 11.i.)
12.a. Country of Citizenship: (Check/List more than one, if applicable. Nationals of the United States may check U.S.A.) United States of America (U.S.A.) Other Country/Countries (Specify) Yes No
12.b. Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
12.c. Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States?
12.d.1. Are you an alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa? (See Instructions for Question 12.d.)
12.d.2. If "yes", do you fall within any of the exceptions stated in the instructions? N/A
13. If you are an alien, record your U.S.-Issued Alien or Admission number (AR#, USCIS#, or I94#):
Hopefully this gives you some idea of the questions that a prosepctive firearm owner must answer every single time they purchase a gun.
Please note that convicted felons, fugitives from justice, unlawful users of controlled substances (narcotics including marijuana), mental defectives, persons dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, persons subject to a domestic restraining order, persons convicted of a crime of domestic violence, are not allowed to own a firearm in the United States. By the way, if you lie on this form, it is a felony, and you will be subject to a felony charge and if convicted, sent to barbwire city, and you will never be able to own a firearm in the U.S.
Also, in Illinois, every Firearm Owners Identity card (FOID) holder is checked every night against the Illinois crime check database. Concealed carry permit holders are checked a second time each night in Illinois. The reason for doing this every night is to make sure that a law abiding citizen doesn't become unlawful and violate the right to own a firearm. This procedure should protect us, but, it is not foolproof.
Unfortunately, you can pass as many laws as you like to curb the spread of ILLEGAL guns, but the criminal element in our society has always been able to circumvent them for many reasons - one of which is lazy or incompetent prosecutors. If you're worried about people like me or kaTNap owning a gun you're diverting your attention away from the real problem. Just look at the firearm homicides committed in the city of Chicago. That would be a good place to start your gun control efforts. I am a concealed carry permit holder who teaches firearm safety to women and in civilian life I'm very happy to say I have never pointed my gun at, nor shot anyone. However, if any person threatened my family or me with deadly force, they would be making a really bad decision.
For Ryanfield124 from Ryan Field 129 Semper Fi from an 0311.
Here are the pertinent questions on Form BATF form 4473
11. Answer the following questions by checking or marking "yes" or "no" in the boxes to the right of the questions. Yes No
a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)
b. Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year? (See Instructions for Question 11.b.)
c. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation? (See Instructions for Question 11.c.)
d. Are you a fugitive from justice? (See Instructions for Question 11.d.)
e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.
f. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution? (See Instructions for Question 11.f.)
g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
h. Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner? (See Instructions for Question 11.h.)
i. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence? (See Instructions for Question 11.i.)
12.a. Country of Citizenship: (Check/List more than one, if applicable. Nationals of the United States may check U.S.A.) United States of America (U.S.A.) Other Country/Countries (Specify) Yes No
12.b. Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
12.c. Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States?
12.d.1. Are you an alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa? (See Instructions for Question 12.d.)
12.d.2. If "yes", do you fall within any of the exceptions stated in the instructions? N/A
13. If you are an alien, record your U.S.-Issued Alien or Admission number (AR#, USCIS#, or I94#):
Hopefully this gives you some idea of the questions that a prosepctive firearm owner must answer every single time they purchase a gun.
All of this being true, why do we continue to have mass slaughter with guns? Isn't there a simple way to stop this, which would be seriously restrictive gun laws, that allow responsible gun owners to have their single shot guns and rifles, but stop all automatic gun and rifle sales? I'm with you that the fundamental problem is mental health, but as the short term solution, we must stop the flow of guns to those who will commit murder.
Sorry to be a smart ***, but according to Alec Baldwin guns are perfectly capable of pointing themselves at a human being, and then squeezing their own triggers.
What a crock. I hope the lock him up and throw away the key, but doubt that that happens. There are NO accidental discharges - they are ALL NEGLIGENT discharges.
What a crock. I hope the lock him up and throw away the key, but doubt that that happens. There are NO accidental discharges - they are ALL NEGLIGENT discharges.
A separate topic, although Baldwin seems to be trying to cover his ***. Someone pulled the trigger. He is a small piece of a much bigger picture. But, without the gun, no one killed. Guns only exacerbate our aggressive tendencies.
I live a few miles away from Oxford HS in Lake Orion, and my children attend/attended the high school down Lapeer Road. We're fierce rivals, but it's a tight-knit community where our children grow up together and play on the same club soccer and baseball teams. Nobody who lives in this area can honestly say they never expected this to happen here, but nothing can prepare you for the grief.
Sure, gun owners are required to provide information, but we currently have a powerful gun lobby that has stifled the closing of loopholes, adoption of common sense restrictions, and increased sharing of information regarding gun ownership among agencies. And we have a substantial portion of the public believing the NRA's toxic sludge that since there's no "perfect solution" to gun violence, we shouldn't do anything except have more guns, more metal detectors, better-fortified walls, more ways to make schools into prisons.
Finally, it's important that we honor the tragedy by remembering the events exactly as they occurred and not create our own narratives. There have been some stories circulating about the events of that day; we should take them all with a grain of salt until there's more clarity. The Oakland County sheriff has already said many of the most viral ones weren't true.
Sure, gun owners are required to provide information, but we currently have a powerful gun lobby that has stifled the closing of loopholes, adoption of common sense restrictions, and increased sharing of information regarding gun ownership among agencies. And we have a substantial portion of the public believing the NRA's toxic sludge that since there's no "perfect solution" to gun violence, we shouldn't do anything except have more guns, more metal detectors, better-fortified walls, more ways to make schools into prisons.
Finally, it's important that we honor the tragedy by remembering the events exactly as they occurred and not create our own narratives. There have been some stories circulating about the events of that day; we should take them all with a grain of salt until there's more clarity. The Oakland County sheriff has already said many of the most viral ones weren't true.
The identification process isn't working and often where it is working, such as the identification of mentally ill homeless people in San Francisco, they have protectors who will go to court to make sure they are left alone.
I wish there were some way to identify and help the mentally ill, but too often we only discover their mental illness when they murder and in this case abet in murder. I really feel some intense anger reading about how this disaster happened. The perp and his assistant, though, are mentally ill and so society will/must accept this now and again and again in the future. Mental illness and murder share a lot of mental space. Maybe most people agree that all murderers are mentally ill.
I resent murder and abetting murder more than I should, I know. I am thankful none of the murderous mentally ill have come after me, my family and friends so far. I hope the victims' families and friends will understand that their loss is only because of mental illness and therefore must be accepted. Somehow find some peace, you people. It's mental illness!!!
Parents of the shooter being charged with 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.Could be up to 15 years in prison if found guilty.I imagine they will also be sued in civil court.No financial compensation can replace the losses of those affected by this needless tragedy.Just horrible parenting by this boy's parents.
They’re on the run.
Stopped responding to their lawyer this morning.
The negligence and enablement is terrifying. As if the lack of care for their son.
30 minutes after it happened, she texted her son:
“Ethan, don’t do it.”
Last edited:
First: mental health and violent video games are global matters that have the potential to impact every human. Yet America is the only country in the world with frequent mass shootings at schools, resulting in tragedies like this. Why is that?
Second, this:
Second, this:
What has gone bad? People are having a discussion about a serious, complex topic. No one is insulting anyone else. Different sides are being presented. There is some emotion, but I haven't seen any irrationality. I think this thread has gone very well.
This glorification crap is the stuff I’ll never understand. If you’re a gun supporter, you should at least respect the destructive force they can be and act in that respectful way with your weapons.
Sorry, but this of "reasoning" is just plain imbecilic.
Things like a car, or even a knife or hammer, while can be used to kill, have utilitarian uses.
There is no other use for a gun except to kill.
And once the element of surprise is over, people can evade a killer using a vehicle or defend themselves against someone armed with a knife or hammer (China went thru a rash of knife attacks at grade schools not too long ago - the vast majority of students wounded survived; that wouldn't have been the case if the perpetrators had been armed with a gun).
And its not just about guns, but the type of firearms that are so prevalent today.
Grew up in an area with 1/3rd of the makes skipped school on the 1st day of deer hunting season.
My school also had a shooting team (tho, think those days are long gone).
What wer'e talking about are bolt-action hunting rifles (hunting is a legitimate reason to use a firearm), and not military grade long arms and pistols which can quickly unload a magazine.
There's a reason why mass shooters arm themselves with semiautomatic (sometimes using a bump stock) long arms and pistols and not a hunting rifle and a revolver.
The reason is because they can kill a lot more people in a short amount of time.
So, what exactly is the reason for being able to have military grade firearms aside from feeling like "someone" and getting your nuts off by being able to shoot off a large amount of bullets quickly?
Speaking of which, now we've got yahoos going hunting with an AR-15 and the like, because you never know if the deer is going to outgun you.
Last edited:
The vast majority of those are in non-white neighborhoods, so the politicians really aren't under that much pressure; somewhat akin to the disappearance of white (esp. if blonde and attractive) females getting massive media attention while women of color get hardly a peep.
Do you?
And it's not anywhere near what the NRA would like you to believe; and when it comes to hunting or protection from certain wildlife, a hunting rifle or a revolver would suffice (or even bear spray) - no need for military grade weapons.
And speaking of the NRA, they love to raise the spectre of the armed home invader (which is overblown), but they're the one who are doing the darndest to make that possible.
The reason why gun laws in cities like NYC, Chicago, etc. don't really work is because there is a vibrant gun running business from surrounding states or up from the I 95 corridor (where gun sales from GA, the Carolinas, etc. are funneled up to DC, Baltimore, Philly, NYC and Boston).
The ATF used to keep records of where guns used for crime were purchased (a lot of them coming from the same unscrupulous gun shops), but the NRA put a halt to that during the Bush Jr administration.
Aside from using the spectre of the "armed and dangerous" home invader to further juice gun sales, the NRA has zero actual interest in helping to prevent it.
The NRA also basically killed Smart guns - which would go a long ways in preventing children from accidently shooting and killing someone (there were 2 recent such tragedies - one where a young child killed his mother, another, a sibling).
There are a lot of gun owners who refuse to lock away their guns because, in their eyes, a gun that isn't readily accessible (in the slight chance of a home invasion) is useless.
Last edited: