I wish Rivals had already went to these new message boards two years ago at this time. That way I could go back and read (and bump) the Miami game thread and some others on the days after that loss. I have this sneaking suspicion a few posters here would get red faces at some of things they said about the 2015 team. Call it a hunch.
Tatum = Rivers?
- Thread starter TheDude1
- Start date
I probably said some dumb stuff, just like this last game. The difference for me Is, this year I allowed myself to get unrealistic expectation before they even played a game. Now, I'm going to have to learn to not have hissy fit, when something I have no control over doesn't meet my expectations!
The real problem is that we haven't gotten a chance to see this full team the way it was designed to be. We've literally had nearly every single guy on our roster injured at some point this year that includes preseason lottery picks and preseason AA candidates. That's where the frustration should be.
Harry gets two starts with Amile- it's a hell of a lot different when he's got a fifth year leader next to him on defense, telling him where to go and knowing where to be at all times. You then ask him to anchor the defense against a top ten team on the road, not to mention he hasn't played in 15mo? It's just unfair unfortunately that is life.
I'm hopeful both the staff and players figure it out, there is time.
Yea they showed a lot of heart in those two blowout losses to NC state and Miami. I was at Cameron for the Miami loss and was astonished at how little effort that team put forth. However, that season turned out pretty well for us. Let's hold off on packing it in for this season just yet.
You'd never read something like this at THR. Self awareness isn't a thing over there. I'm guilty of the same thing you described. I bought the hype. I ignored injury risks. I got excited and now I'm frustrated. In reality, the program is in great shape.
I
Never said I was packing it in now did I?
Just think there are some players more worried about themself than the team and some effort level to me looks pathetic...but if course my opinion only
And I was at that Miami game also and honestly don't think the effort was as bad as you thought it was...but I respect your opinion
A lot of dumb variables that can't really be ignored, no matter how hard I try! There's a lot more to this then basketball. You'd think all this talent be, cut and dry, easier on a coach. That is obviously not always the case!
It's been a tough year to coach Duke. Preseason expectations of being number 1 don't seem to go away just because half your team and coach have missed time.
That's what's been the most frustrating thing about this season. 10 of our 13 scholarship players have suffered some sort of injury this season. The only 3 scholarship players that haven't suffered some sort of injury this season have been Luke Kennard, Antonio Vrankovic and Jack White.
I just looked up stats and my totals might've been off by 1 and it looks like it might actually be 9 of our 13 scholarship players because I thought Matt Jones had suffered an injury this season that caused him to miss time but he's played in all 17 games this season, so I guess I was wrong about him being injured this season. Coincidentally he's 1 of only 2 players that has played in all 17 games this season, the other player being Luke Kennard.
There's still hope that everyone is healthy in March. We just need HG, JTat and Frank to make that leap.
They aren't ready to be good in the NBA next year, but that's not why teams draft players.
Beat me to it. I remember many Duke fans condemning Duke in 2015, (right around this time BTW) that they couldn't win a tile for a myriad of reasons.
Tatum is fine. He is still finding his way. Brandon Ingram struggled, sometimes mightily, at the beginning of his freshman year.
I see lots of difference between Rivers and Tatum. Yet I see some obvious similarities on the offensive side of the ball.
In Rivers defense, he kind of had to be that guy in 2012. There wasn't a lot of other options. We had good players who could score, but not a single alpha guy. Both Mason and Seth were close to that kind of player their senior year, but not in 2012. What we have this season is Tatum sometimes not recognizing he doesn't have to try and do it all by myself.
I think it's that and he's still learning what the right play is, while within the team setting.
It's amazing how this works too. No other billion dollar corporation would take the flyers on employees the way the NBA does. Even in baseball when a kid is drafted out of high school, the chances he makes the show are super slim, and if he does, it's because he's a darn good player.
I was watching on YouTube, some of the games in the '01 tournament. It was nothing to see a game where there were 6 - 10 future NBA players on the floor at once, not even counting the young guys on the bench who would eventually make it up.
While this season has been incredibly competitive, there is something to be said about these kids getting to play, learn and grow for a few years.
The only way you keep these kids in school is to compensate them. Stipend or something.
tatum catching flack.....he is a freshman and the coaches should define a role for him, but the kid is averaging 17ppg 7reb 2ast 2stl 2blks 42%fg 86%ft 31%3ptfg....lots of things to fix...shot selection aimlessly driving into the point...get back to his mid-range, but he aint the problem
I think he should be scoring more based on his high number of shots taken, and/or be averaging a few more assists.
OFC
Agreed, he's doing all of this while not playing his best, and still trying to adjust after being injured and playing with new teammates and an ever changing roster. He's not the problem and hopefully he can keep getting better and smarter out there. He's making a lot of freshman mistakes and despite being an elite recruit that doesn't make him impervious to youth based errors.
Pretty tired of the excuses. There are a lot of elite frosh this year who are playing much better than Tatum. He's a black hole - was known to be the case when he was being recruited - and his +/- for the season is like 7th best on the team. Similar to Jah in that he'll get his numbers but they don't add up to much when you look at the stats.
I'd love to see him come off the bench, when we could use a scoring punch with our more efficient scorers getting a break. Right now he cannibalizes much more efficient scorers like Luke and Amile (when he was healthy).
Did you just take a shot at Jah's value to the 2015 team?
Tatum is doing fine. He makes freshman mistakes for sure and has work to do as a player but the dude is what, 19? Played in half of Duke's game so far and people expect that he is going to have everything figured out already? Despite all of that, he is playing pretty well and I can think of many other things that this team needs to improve upon rather than Tatum being aggressive on offense.
can he play better def..yep..make better decision...yep...last five games shots 3-11 11pts.....7-17 21pts....6-9 22pts...8-15 19pts....6-14 18pts...........team defense is our biggest problem imo
Come off the bench?? Are you seriously suggesting that rather than help him and guide him to making less mistakes you want to bench him. Good coaching move- and who would you play ahead of him right now? I'm all ears.
Jayson Tatum has the highest ceiling of any player on this team. Yes, right now, Luke and Grayson are our 2 best players, and we are getting killed without Amile. However, it's pretty obvious that Jayson has a ceiling that NOBODY else on this team has the potential to reach.
We all have championship aspirations, and guess what, we need Tatum to be an all-american caliber player to reach our goals. I completely disagree with bringing Tatum off the bench. While I do think he needs to scale back his number of shot attempts, and also clearly make better decisions with the ball, coming off the bench won't be the solution. If Tatum isn't a consistent 15-20 ppg guy along with being an average defender by March, we are toast.
We all have championship aspirations, and guess what, we need Tatum to be an all-american caliber player to reach our goals. I completely disagree with bringing Tatum off the bench. While I do think he needs to scale back his number of shot attempts, and also clearly make better decisions with the ball, coming off the bench won't be the solution. If Tatum isn't a consistent 15-20 ppg guy along with being an average defender by March, we are toast.
Personally, I wish we had two or three smarter on shot taking Jason Tatum's and please don't say we don't have enough possessions in a game for three of him.
Tatum is on pace to take more shots this year than Christian Laettner, potentially the best Duke player ever, ever did in any year he played. That is alarming. If you are going to take that many shots, they better at least be GOOD shots. That's the problem though. He takes very low percentage shots more times than not. He gets the ball and doesn't even appear to look for his teammates the majority of the time. If there are 5 seconds left on the shot clock, sure, jack up a fade away shot. But we have to much talent on the team for him to be taking many of the shots that he takes.
If we had Amile right now I would say start the group we used in the Kansas game. I can't say I disagree w/the notion considering his shot selection, and perhaps it would be the ONE THING to get his attention and help him BECOME the well-rounded baller we expect to see...I understand the frustration fellow fans have, given the hype which preceded the young man's arrival...
Hopefully Jayson has terrific week of practice and Capel sees this group come together between now and Saturday...
OFC
Hopefully Jayson has terrific week of practice and Capel sees this group come together between now and Saturday...
OFC
Re: Jah, love the guy, it's not a shot to state the facts: We were better both defensively (obviously) and even offensively when he was on the bench. On Offense, Marshall was more efficient and a much better offensive rebounder, which he'd often pass out for an open 3.
Re: Tatum, he's a very inefficient shooter and he doesn't create for the more efficient guys, so yes, we could do with a lot less of Tatum and be better off as a team. I think we'll get Amile back w/in the next few games, at which point I'd vote for Grayson, Luke, Matt, Giles, and Amile. I think that's our best lineup, hopefully we get a lot more from Harry than we have so far. That lineup isn't making it to the F4 - to get there, Tatum is going to have to learn how to play winning basketball very soon, and benching might be one of the few ways to get him there this season...
Writer suggests jury out on Tatum's game for next level:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theringer.com/amp/p/c37f49bb21b8
OFC
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theringer.com/amp/p/c37f49bb21b8
OFC
Last edited:
The problem is that you're not really stating facts, just an opinion.
I'd tend to agree that we were a better team defensively, at times, when Okafor was on the bench. Specifically in the championship game against Wisconsin. Kaminsky was a hard guard for Jahlil. But I will say that team made strides defensively that are rarely seen throughout a season. We couldn't guard a middle school team in January that season....and it wasn't all on Jahlil. Heck, Tyus wasn't known, either, for his defensive prowess.
As for on offense, I don't even know how you say that with a straight face. Marshall was not, in any shape or form, an offensive threat as a junior. Was he a better rebounder and defender than Jah? Yeah, probably. Early on that season, I'll admit we got stagnant sometimes when the ball went in to Jahlil. Now, part of that was on him because he did clog up the lane and sometimes stop movement, but he took huge steps in becoming efficient as the season wore on. Offensively, Jahlil is a coaches dream because he's so skilled. However, as was my prediction when he left Duke, I always questioned whether or not he'd be able to defend and rebound at an elite level once he got into the NBA. He still has a long ways to go.
Don't know what to tell you other than point you to the stats:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2015.html#all_per_min
Marshall had an Ortg of 142.7 while Oak was at 119, for the reasons I mentioned. There's no way to win a title w/o Oak, I'm simply making the argument that a players per-game averages don't tell the story.
You can look at this year's team and see that Tatum's Ortg is 10th best on the team (107), while Luke is 136, Amile is 124, and Grayson is 120. Jason's best play on O is to pass it to anyone else on the floor, ideally in a way that leads to an open 3 pointer. What's interesting is Tatum has the best Drtg on the team, which I'd argue is harder to get better at. If he only would stop killing us on O, he'd become one of our top players.