The IHSA should pull a Big East

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I'm not sure what frosts me more, the public school whining or their insistence that everyone should play to their level of mediocrity. If the private schools won't leave the IHSA to form their own association, and if the public school dominated IHSA can't figure out a way to separate publics from privates without being subject to claims of discrimination, I have a new, sure-fire solution.

Here is the real problem: There are too many small to medium boundaried public schools in the IHSA relative to the other types of IHSA members. Combined, those small to medium boundaried public schools constitute a super majority of the voting members. There aren't equal numbers of small, medium and large public and private schools. If there were, I guarantee we wouldn't be having these discussions.

There CERTAINLY isn't representation in the IHSA according to student population. Instead, we have a state association in which a substantial majority of students in the state are represented by a small minority of schools.

The problem is that the majority of school members of the IHSA want the minority to be just like them. They want them to CONFORM. For those of you Fountainhead fans out there, the majority is like the architecture school faculty and the privates are like Howard Roark. The small and medium publics are convinced that every time they lose to a minority type of school it's because of the TYPE of school that they lost to, and not for any other reason. It's the expedient rationale of slackers who choose to point fingers away from everyone except themselves. Howard Roark described them as second handers.

Anyway, I digress. Enough of the preamble. On to the meat of the solution...

What the public school majority members of the IHSA need to do is what the Catholic schools in the Big East did a couple of years ago. The Catholic universities in the Big East constituted the majority of Big East members. As a majority, they voted as a group to disband the conference and then reorganize it with only Big East schools that DIDN'T have FBS football programs (it just so happened that only the Catholic universities satisfied that new membership criterion). Later on, they expanded to add Butler and Xavier. A lot of work, but it avoided all that prolonged and potentially nasty internal debate and the bad pub of kicking out the public Big East universities like WV, Pitt, Rutgers, UConn, etc. You can't kick schools out of a conference that doesn't exist. Right? Likewise, you can't kick private schools out of an athletic association that doesn't exist. Right? I tell ya, this is brilliant stuff!

If the IHSA publics were to pull a Big East, they could then form a new membership athletic association limited to PUBLIC schools, or an association of BOUNDARIED public schools. Voila! Problem solved. Call it the IHSA if you want.

So, please, stop your whining. Stop trying to make more competitive private schools weaker. Do something productive for once. Dissolve the IHSA and reform it in whatever image works for you. Create a private membership association of similar schools. You go your way, and we'll figure out a way to pick up the pieces you leave behind.

 

[mc140]

The CCL schools can't even agree to schedule each other in football with out threats of leaving the conference. Nothing is changing.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

The CCL schools can't even agree to schedule each other in football with out threats of leaving the conference. Nothing is changing.

Right. My dreams of a NIPL are still, um, vivid, but I realize it's not going to happen anytime soon as a result of private school initiative. That's why I'm hoping that the public schools in the IHSA will pull a Big East. Such a move would FORCE the private schools to organize.

 

[UlbKA91]

If its the public schools, would it be the haves or the have-nots that took the initiative? I forsee a downstate-based pullout along the lines that R-man has described, but would the mini-metros like ESL-Belleville, Rockford, Peoria, Springfield be invited or avoided?

 

[jeepruslb]

Atlas Shrugged

 

[Bwm57]

Ramblin, are the extra wide doorways for your head expensive?

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

LOL....

 

[Quags22]

Ramblin, are the extra wide doorways for your head expensive?

Best post of the year

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

This is such an old and tired argument. If the private schools want to split from the IHSA, buh and bye.

From what I've witnessed on this board this year a great deal of he whining is coming from private schools.

Both sides need to shut the F up pull your big boy pants up and play.

 

[Quags22]

This is such an old and tired argument. If the private schools want to split from the IHSA, buh and bye.

From what I've witnessed on this board this year a great deal of he whining is coming from private schools.

Both sides need to shut the F up pull your big boy pants up and play.

2nd best post of the year

 

[Corey90]

2nd best post of the year

Rambinman

You know where he got his edgy name. He keeps Rambling bla bla bla

 

[MWittman]

ramblin:

Like you, I have crusaded against the IHSA for over a decade. Similarly, I am irritated at the IHSA's insistence on re-defining the word fair.

The IHSA, an organization I have referred to more and more often as the Temple of Denial in Springfield, lost sight of fair long ago.

Stop trying to make more competitive private schools weaker.

You nailed the entire mission of the IHSA in this sentence above.

With the multiplier and the coercive success factor, both vacuous half measures sold as prudence, the IHSA entered into a deal which countermanded the principle of fairness. This is undeniable. Typical of the IHSA, they always prioritize the easy over the wise and they will ultimately deal with the debt incurred by default.

As you wisely point out, it is the utter domination of mid-sized schools which exercise decisive influence and dominate the direction of IHSA edicts re-defining fairness to restrict the "type" of school achieving state championships.

That public schools have such a disproportionate influence over the IHSA occurs for the simplest of reasons: They complain and spread fear and alarm to earn it.

Using the latest "scare statistic," the continued success of a handful of Catholic schools, the IHSA enacted the good Dr. Dunnan's child-like policy of elevating Catholic schools by force. This idiotic scheme to cripple Catholic schools appears to have boomeranged in its inaugural season.

The IHSA has no plan; they are an institution of tactics only.

The IHSA is neither the check nor balance it might once have been as a generation of ambitious public school coaches suffered repeated losses, rose through the ranks, became administrators, created abstractions and now prioritize amorphous notions of athletic justice above a strict understanding of equity. They do so through unrivaled access to the leadership deep in the bowels of the IHSA's offices.

Too many public school coaches, administrators and IHSA officials privilege what they believe to be right or just over what fair truly means and they demand far more than the situation justifies. As a result, the IHSA has effectively become a despotic body, establishing law or new interpretation by fiat, endeavoring disproportionate rewards for specific groups, all the while posturing as a visionary organization bent on bringing out change for the sake of upright competition.

You speak of a revolt within and a mass exodus of public schools from the IHSA. As prepossessing a notion this may be, it will never be realized: They can't beat us; they can't kick us out; and they won't leave.

We'll just have to keep kicking their a**es.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

Instead of the IHSA pulling a Big East why doesn't the private schools just form their own thing? Oh that's right - they don't want to. So this is only for the pissed off alumni to keep talking about. Talk about whining..

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

The IHSA has no plan; they are an institution of tactics only.

Bingo.

 

[LHSTigers94]

When public school complain about playing over matched private schools, its called whining.
When privates schools complain about playing over matched public schools (Multiplier), its called looking for justice.

I can't see the difference myself.

 

[catsattackfor3]

Instead of the IHSA pulling a Big East why doesn't the private schools just form their own thing? Oh that's right - they don't want to. So this is only for the pissed off alumni to keep talking about. Talk about whining..

Every few years the privates meet downstate and discuss forming their own association. It always dies on the vine because many of the private schools in the state that are on their own isolated island among public schools (think schools like Alleman, Bloomington Central Catholic, Boylan, etc) cannot afford to have the IHSA say fine have your own association but our member schools will not be allowed to play you. This has been and always will be the death of ta possible Private Association. Only thing that could happen is the Catholic Schools in the Chicago area could form their own association but as has been said before they cannot even agree on a football schedule let alone start their own association. An IHSA Private class bracket is maybe the only thing that will ever happen but that is a real longshot too.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Instead of the IHSA pulling a Big East why doesn't the private schools just form their own thing?

You ask a great question.

Are you familiar with Pavlov's experimentation with dogs from the 1890s? Basically, the experiments fed dogs shortly after a bell had been rung. Once that bell rang, the dogs began to drool in anticipation of being fed. The dogs had begun to associate the bell with food.

Fast forward 70 years to the University of Pennsylvania. Back in the days before PETA, researchers at Penn were building on Pavlov's experiments. Before administering an electric shock to dogs, a machine would emit a high pitched tone. At first, the dogs were restrained while being shocked. The dogs heard the tone, experienced the shock, and there was nothing they could do about it. They couldn't stop the shock from coming, and neither could they escape their fate of the shock being administered.

After much time and countless repetitions of the tone/shock, those same dogs were put in crates out of which they could easily and obviously escape. The researchers hypothesized that, once the restraints were removed and their means of escape was unimpeded, the dogs would get the hell out of the crate as soon as they heard the high pitched tone. Makes sense, right? That hypothesis is similar to you wondering why the private schools just don't up and leave the IHSA. Right?

Wrong.

Instead of fleeing when they heard the tone, the dogs curled up meekly and took the shock. Sure, they began to whimper when they heard the tone. That's the Pavlovian response. But, time after time, they took the shock, without trying to escape, even though they KNEW the shock was coming. During their conditioning when they were being restrained, no amount of struggle could set them free or stop the shock from coming. The dogs were CONDITIONED into believing that struggle and escape were FUTILE. The dogs had concluded that nothing that they did mattered. They had accepted their situation as being uncontrollable and helpless.

One of the researchers was a grad student named Martin Seligman. Seligman concluded that "Clearly, animals can learn their actions are futile, and when they do, they no longer initiate action; they become passive." This is known as the "learned helplessness" theory.

I know what you are thinking: Those were dogs. We are talking about humans. Apples and oranges.

Really? Are you familiar with the WW II concentration camps run by the Germans? Ever wonder why those many thousands of imprisoned Jews never organized themselves in the camps? Why they never successfully revolted? Why they seemingly went along and passively accepted their fate?

By now, you know where I'm going with this.

The answer to your question is because the private schools have become passive when it comes to accepting their IHSA-imposed fate. My Big East solution to the public/private problem does not involve the passive private schools voluntarily leaving. They won't leave because they have been CONDITIONED to stay and accept their futile existence in the IHSA.

The public schools in the IHSA need to do the humane thing, which is to dissolve and reorganize. Put the poor dogs out of their misery.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

The answer to your question is because the private schools have become passive when it comes to accepting their IHSA-imposed fate. My Big East solution to the public/private problem does not involve the passive private schools voluntarily leaving. They won't leave because they have been CONDITIONED to stay and accept their futile existence in the IHSA.

The public schools in the IHSA need to do the humane thing, which is to dissolve and reorganize. Put the poor dogs out of their misery.

Yes I have heard of and studied Pavlov's experiments. But I'm confused.

Are you comparing the private school leaders to Pavlov's dogs or are you saying that you want the IHSA to do something the private schools can't or won't do themselves?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Yes I have heard of and studied Pavlov's experiments. But I'm confused.

Are you comparing the private school leaders to Pavlov's dogs or are you saying that you want the IHSA to do something the private schools can't or won't do themselves?

Not to Pavlov's dogs; to Seligman's dogs -- the ones that have been conditioned to passively accept their helpless situation. The IHSA has beaten/tortured private schools for so long that the private schools have become just like Seligman's dogs.

The private schools are not going to rise up in rebellion. Instead, they will curl up and whimper as the public school dominated IHSA continues to foist legislated mediocrity upon them. Truly, the humane thing to do is to put us out of our misery by dissolving the IHSA. Dissolve it and reorganize it as a public school-only institution. Remove the shackles of IHSA membership and leave us to pick up the pieces of our tortured existence. It's the best and most humane thing you can do.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

Ramblin, you are hilarious. You have been advocating the NIPL for years and bellyaching about how the privates are being discriminated against.

Now you want the IHSA to do what the privates won't do themselves.

Might as well get off the soapbox, it won't happen.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

I think what Ramblin doesn't get is that this wouldn't be just a football move. It would be for all sports. So in the sports like basketball baseball and softball it would take effect there too.

While the private schools have done well of Late in baseball and girls hoops not so much in softball or boys hoops.

Careful what you wish for.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Not to Pavlov's dogs; to Seligman's dogs -- the ones that have been conditioned to passively accept their helpless situation. The IHSA has beaten/tortured private schools for so long that the private schools have become just like Seligman's dogs.

The private schools are not going to rise up in rebellion. Instead, they will curl up and whimper as the public school dominated IHSA continues to foist legislated mediocrity upon them. Truly, the humane thing to do is to put us out of our misery by dissolving the IHSA. Dissolve it and reorganize it as a public school-only institution. Remove the shackles of IHSA membership and leave us to pick up the pieces of our tortured existence. It's the best and most humane thing you can do.

They have been beaten so much that they won just as many championships as public schools. Yep, they are really getting the bad end of the stick. IHSA is really doing a good job of punish private schools.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Now you want the IHSA to do what the privates won't do themselves.

The IHSA is going to do what it is going to do. I think the IHSA is going to try to separate private and public schools.

However, they are going to be stupid about it. As MWitt said earlier in this thread, the IHSA has no plan; it is an institution of tactics only.

Mark my words, they will be stupid about it. They can't help themselves! They will try to separate privates and publics in such a way as will invite claims (and lawsuits) of discrimination.

I am offering them the perfect out! Just pull a Big East, and, prest-o change-o, problem solved. No fuss, no muss!

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

While the private schools have done well of Late in baseball and girls hoops not so much in softball or boys hoops.

In softball, there were two classes from 1985 to 2007. In 2008, it went to four classes. In the last seven years of the two class system, there were no private schools represented in any of the title games in Class A or Class AA. One year after class expansion in softball, Loyola Academy won the Class 4A softball title. From that point on, there has been a private school in one of the four title games every single year. Private schools have won softball titles for the past four straight years.

As for boys hoops, three of the 8 finalists last year were private schools. The 3A game pitted two private schools (St. Joseph and Althoff) against each other, and the Chargers came out on top in that one. Two years ago, Mooseheart won 1A and Bloomington Central Catholic won 2A. In 4A, Whitney Young and Jahlil Okafor withstood a furious Benet 4th quarter rally to prevail in a two point nail biter.

Do your homework like a good journalist, Newt. Otherwise, you get some wiseguy like me that makes you look like you didn't.

 

[UlbKA91]

Here is proof of a "tuition" charged by CPS for non-Chicago residents for several of their Selective Enrollment (Magnet for you youngins out there) schools. Note that once caught, a non-resident pupil has to pony up or be expelled, but at least they have the option. They should not be allowed in any purely-boundary public school league either. One could argue that the same could apply to a "caught/busted" Phillips or Simeon athlete, but the market rate tuition that could be charged by either school would not be as much of a moneymaker for the CPS, nor a worthy (academic) investment by a minimally involved and concerned parent.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2016...d-spots-chicagos-top-schools-by-gaming-system

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

In softball, there were two classes from 1985 to 2007. In 2008, it went to four classes. In the last seven years of the two class system, there were no private schools represented in any of the title games in Class A or Class AA. One year after class expansion in softball, Loyola Academy won the Class 4A softball title. From that point on, there has been a private school in one of the four title games every single year. Private schools have won softball titles for the past four straight years.

As for boys hoops, three of the 8 finalists last year were private schools. The 3A game pitted two private schools (St. Joseph and Althoff) against each other, and the Chargers came out on top in that one. Two years ago, Mooseheart won 1A and Bloomington Central Catholic won 2A. In 4A, Whitney Young and Jahlil Okafor withstood a furious Benet 4th quarter rally to prevail in a two point nail biter.

Do your homework like a good journalist, Newt. Otherwise, you get some wiseguy like me that makes you look like you didn't.

And how many titles in hoops have the private schools landed of late?

Sorry I didn't look into it that deeply.

Bottom line is if the private schools want out go. No one is stopping you. But don't take offense when you want to come back and you're not welcomed.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Bottom line is if the private schools want out go. No one is stopping you. But don't take offense when you want to come back and you're not welcomed.

As if we are welcomed now?

We aren't welcomed, Newt. We aren't even TOLERATED.

I'm convinced that if the majority of IHSA members had their way, we would be kicked out. The problem is, they don't know how to do it without mucking it up. I'm giving them the perfect out! Just pull a Big East.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

As if we are welcomed now?

We aren't welcomed, Newt. We aren't even TOLERATED.

Wow...

 

[catsattackfor3]

And how many titles in hoops have the private schools landed of late?

Sorry I didn't look into it that deeply.

Bottom line is if the private schools want out go. No one is stopping you. But don't take offense when you want to come back and you're not welcomed.

But in boys hoops multiplied / open enrollment schools rule the championship trophy case (CPS Schools - Young, Simeon, Morgan Park, etc) Also the Privates have dominated in Volleyball over the years as well. Community schools just do not win the trophies as much as multiplied or private schools

 

[UlbKA91]

But in boys hoops multiplied / open enrollment schools rule the championship trophy case (CPS Schools - Young, Simeon, Morgan Park, etc) Also the Privates have dominated in Volleyball over the years as well. Community schools just do not win the trophies as much as multiplied or private schools

Young has the multiplier, Simeon has a modified "vocational (to account for a higher male-female ratio typical of former vo-tech heavy schools) multiplier, but I dont know if MP has the magnet school multiplier anymore, since they are more of a neighborhood school with Brooks, Carver Military and Ag' Sciences taking in more of the interested students that used to gravitate to MP when it was a 7-12 magnet center in the 80s-early 90s.

 

[ignazio]

This might come as a shock to many of you, but we Catholic school folks pay for the IHSA just as much - if not more - than the rest of you.

I think we deserve a seat at the table.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

I think we deserve a seat at the table.

You do. Three of the 11 directors on the board are from private schools (Decatur Christian, Fenwick and Mt.Carmel).

So that means that around 27% of the board is from private schools with only 15% of the represented schools in the IHSA are private.

How much more of a seat do you want?

 

[illini14]

You do. Three of the 11 directors on the board are from private schools (Decatur Christian, Fenwick and Mt.Carmel).

So that means that around 27% of the board is from private schools with only 15% of the represented schools in the IHSA are private.

How much more of a seat do you want?

Sometimes (please note that I'm saying sometimes) people that have more money than others (or think they have more money than others) think they should have more of a say in decisions being made.

Personally, I think 3 of the 11 seats being filled by private schools is appropriate. Especially with two schools from the Chicagoland area, and one from down-state central Illinois.

 

[dtlove3434]

All you guys have too much time on your hand! LOL

 

[The Rainmaker]

The premise of the above discussion is wrong. Ramblinman and others need to recognize that 7A and 8A have been dominated by public schools during the 15 years of their existence with 12 public champs in 7A and 13 in 8A. The smaller Catholic schools which tend to be under funded financially have had great difficulty competing with the big, rich public schools. In the largest enrollment class, 8A and before that 6A, the public schools have won all but 4 titles since 1981. This is total domination over 34 years. As to other sports, the affluent public schools totally dominate the "country club" sports of tennis, golf and swimming. No Catholic school has ever come close to a title in tennis, the sport of the rich.

Rambliman has probably forgotten that Loyola did not get beyond the second round of the playoffs for 15 years, starting in 1994 and finally ending in 2009.

I like the system the way it is. The big rich public schools are having fun bullying the little Catholic schools.

My own conference was better than the Catholic Blue this year. Loyola completely dominated the Blue but struggled past Palatine 24-22. Loyola had an average point differential against its Blue opponents of 30 points; Palatine had an average point differential against its MidSuburban-West foes of only one point.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

The premise of the above discussion is wrong. Ramblinman and others need to recognize that 7A and 8A have been dominated by public schools during the 15 years of their existence with 12 public champs in 7A and 13 in 8A. The smaller Catholic schools which tend to be under funded financially have had great difficulty competing with the big, rich public schools. In the largest enrollment class, 8A and before that 6A, the public schools have won all but 4 titles since 1981. This is total domination over 34 years.

First of all, let's be clear that, while 7A and 8A have been around for 15 years, it wasn't until 2005 (the year of the multiplier), that there was ever more than one private school qualifying in 8A in any given year. In the last year before class expansion, there was just one private school in the 6A playoffs, and in the last year before the multiplier, there was just one private school in the 8A playoffs. To claim "total domination" by public schools in a class in which very few private schools ever qualify to be classified seems to me like offering praise for a result that was quite likely going to happen anyway.

That said, however, private schools have won half of the last five 7A and 8A titles since 2011, and there were three private school runners up in those classes in that time frame. What was that you were saying about the premise?

Looks to me like YOUR premise works from about 2005 through 2010.

 

[The Rainmaker]

The change in performance is almost entirely due to the performance of John Holecek at Loyola and to a lesser degree that of Pat Dunne at Marist. Before these two arrived, both Loyola and Marist were easily beaten in the early rounds. This is coaching driven and not a function of being a Catholic school. I suspect there will be some similarly talented coaches hired by big , rich public schools which will offset the coaching improvements at Loyola and Marist. Still, these two together have claimed only two championships in 42 years of state tournament competition, both by Loyola. That 's a long term record that is awful. Since the start of 8A in 2001, these two have only the 2015 championship by Loyola--- a very poor record.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

The change in performance is almost entirely due to the performance of John Holecek at Loyola and to a lesser degree that of Pat Dunne at Marist. Before these two arrived, both Loyola and Marist were easily beaten in the early rounds. This is coaching driven and not a function of being a Catholic school. I suspect there will be some similarly talented coaches hired by big , rich public schools which will offset the coaching improvements at Loyola and Marist. Still, these two together have claimed only two championships in 42 years of state tournament competition, both by Loyola. That 's a long term record that is awful. Since the start of 8A in 2001, these two have only the 2015 championship by Loyola--- a very poor record.

Loyola has won two football titles since 1993. That's two more than most schools have EVER won. Loyola has played in three of the last five 8A title games and has won one. Going back to 2009, the only schools with more 8A title game appearances than Marist are Loyola and Maine South.

I find it rather twisted and illogical how you can take a level of athletic accomplishment and success that the VAST MAJORITY of schools, public and private alike, would give their eye teeth for and use words like "awful" and "poor" to describe it.

 

[mc140]

Rainmaker has a Fratboy vibe to him.

 

[ignazio]

Rainmaker has a Fratboy vibe to him.

Either that or he just awoke from a 14-year coma.