The Myth that UK must always be bad in football

Tannerdad

Heisman
Mar 30, 2002
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I disagree with that since Brooks was able to win with Barnhardt. The AD does not prevent the coach from success.

The recruiting budget is set, the coach chooses his targets, signs players, develops the talent, designs the schemes and calls the plays.

The AD can only be criticized for picking the wrong coach. But as I said in another thread, who were our realistic options.

Brooks was 16-39 in his own conference. That is terrible. Throw out the first 2 years for probation and he was 14-26. Still awful. Like I said, winning in the SEC is questionable here. What Brooks did is win the OOC games, including UL, and all he needed to do was win 2-3 games in the SEC to go Bowling. If that is the measure of success, then so be it. But it needs to be defined by the fans. I think if you consistently win less than 40% in your own conference, you should consider getting out. But that's just me.

I don't know who were the other options for Barnhart. Everyone simply speculates since the AD controls the information. Was Petrino available? Cutcliffe? Others? Did we have to hire 2 coaches that had ZERO HC experience when we needed to continue and expand the modest success Brooks worked his *** off to build?

IMO, the AD situation needs to change before UK football even has a shot at getting better. Or we can just sit around and take what we get.
 

mdlUK.1

Heisman
Dec 23, 2002
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UofL isn't in the SEC
Agreed! ul was about to drop to a lower division before Schnellenberger came. Used to be able to get handfuls of free tickets.

But, they got lucky with Schnellenberger. Plus they had weak schedules that made winning easy. But when he'd schedule a Tennessee? He got his head handed to him.

Yes, NOW , ul would probably be in the top half of the SEC. But they would never have gotten to this point starting from the bottom if they had to do it in the SEC.
 
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LeonThe Camel

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Brooks was 16-39 in his own conference. That is terrible. Throw out the first 2 years for probation and he was 14-26. Still awful. Like I said, winning in the SEC is questionable here. What Brooks did is win the OOC games, including UL, and all he needed to do was win 2-3 games in the SEC to go Bowling. If that is the measure of success, then so be it. But it needs to be defined by the fans. I think if you consistently win less than 40% in your own conference, you should consider getting out. But that's just me.

I don't know who were the other options for Barnhart. Everyone simply speculates since the AD controls the information. Was Petrino available? Cutcliffe? Others? Did we have to hire 2 coaches that had ZERO HC experience when we needed to continue and expand the modest success Brooks worked his *** off to build?

IMO, the AD situation needs to change before UK football even has a shot at getting better. Or we can just sit around and take what we get.
OK. But we went bowling.
 

Tannerdad

Heisman
Mar 30, 2002
52,017
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OK. But we went bowling.

Yep. And like I said, if that is all this is about, then that is what needs to be defined by the fans. As for me, going to the Music City type Bowl each year is a hell of a lot better than what we have done lately, but not sure that should be the ultimate goal of the program. If it is, then we have truly settled.
 
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LeonThe Camel

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Yep. And like I said, if that is all this is about, then that is what needs to be defined by the fans. As for me, going to the Music City type Bowl each year is a hell of a lot better than what we have done lately, but not sure that should be the ultimate goal of the program. If it is, then we have truly settled.
I agree, it should not be the end game. We need to establish ourselves first. That usually means a series of lower level bowls being competitive in the conference (be 3-3, 4-2), then as everything improves we can dream bigger.
As fans, we set ourselves up for this each year. Look at the threads that said 8-4 this year with an outside shot at 9-3. We have not been close to it in years, but we created a consensus that we would be that good.
We need to take baby steps before flying off the cliff.
 

CardHack

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May 29, 2001
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Louisville has over 30 players on its roster from the state of Kentucky. 30+!!! I found that hard to believe. Kentucky owns the state when it comes to access to recruits, yet they have 30+ players from here.

The VAST majority of the Kentuckians are walkons; by my count outside of all the kickers we have from instate which I don't believe are on scholarship, only Hughley (Lafayette) and James Quick (Trinity) are starters with Bonnafon (Trinity) and Bolen (Lexington Catholic) being contributors to past and future causes. We are redshirting Keion Wakefield from Male.

Kentuckians have always augmented us for the most part compared to the kids from the Deep South and Florida; when we've had a really deep local cycle we've really benefitted as did you guys in a three year span where we had Bush, Brohm, Earl Heyman and Urrutia coming out and you guys landing Micah Jones, Garry Williams, Keenan Burton, Lonnell Dewalt, Andre Woodsen and Corey Peters in the same two classes (I think Alphonso Smith was those classes as well wasn't he?)
 

LeonThe Camel

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The VAST majority of the Kentuckians are walkons; by my count outside of all the kickers we have from instate which I don't believe are on scholarship, only Hughley (Lafayette) and James Quick (Trinity) are starters with Bonnafon (Trinity) and Bolen (Lexington Catholic) being contributors to past and future causes. We are redshirting Keion Wakefield from Male.

Kentuckians have always augmented us for the most part compared to the kids from the Deep South and Florida; when we've had a really deep local cycle we've really benefitted as did you guys in a three year span where we had Bush, Brohm, Earl Heyman and Urrutia coming out and you guys landing Micah Jones, Garry Williams, Keenan Burton, Lonnell Dewalt, Andre Woodsen and Corey Peters in the same two classes (I think Alphonso Smith was those classes as well wasn't he?)
I don't know who starts or doesn't for Louisville. I just looked at the roster.
 
Jan 29, 2003
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Your biggest hindrance to success is the cruel fate of many college football programs...lack of natural resources which is exacerbated by the reality that you're in a conference abundant in them. Lacking those you have to get really creative, visionary, et al. That was the attempt with Mumme which had potential, but it's not enough to just recruit a Robertson or a Dennis Johnson...you have to protect them at some point which is the danger of having a spread attack.

Recruiting in the state of Kentucky is extremely cyclical and will continue to be so as numbers of football players within our borders continues to drop; we're seeing it big time in Jefferson Co. at the parochial grade school level which used to be saturated with kids playing football in every parish--I can foresee a time in the next ten years where all grade school programs are combined into just four football playing schools. I don't know if that's the case in Northern Kentucky or not.
CardHack with the informative and insightful words, as always......

I wouldn't have thought we'd already be seeing evidence of the 'concussion worry'. In the beginning, I thought all the concussion talk was just more hype in an age of hype. The longer it went/goes on, the more it seems like there's something to it. Doesn't matter what I think - the point is there are a lot of parents that just won't let their kids play football, which I suppose was always true in some negligible sense, but not in this way. That includes my own kid, who looks like he's going to be quite the athlete - Momma says no to football, and I don't feel strongly enough the other way to argue about it. I know your comment is about the cyclical nature of participation in this particular state - but I can't help but read into it the concussion issue......
 

Deeeefense

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Aug 22, 2001
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UofL isn't in the SEC

You have a point, the excuse makers will still cling to that one, but try recruiting to CUSA/BE/ACC compared to SEC and see what quality of players you can attract?
 

mdlUK.1

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Dec 23, 2002
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You have a point, the excuse makers will still cling to that one, but try recruiting to CUSA/BE/ACC compared to SEC and see what quality of players you can attract?
Even UK's best classes are near the bottom of the SEC. So...
 

BigBlueCatNation

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Every single thread seems to have a handful of posters who believe that UK will always be bad in football. Though I understand the depression and pessimism, I do not agree with that theory. Here is why:

1. Some schools cannot compete because of a lack of resources. UK has plenty, and has one of the wealthiest athletic departments in the country. The coffers will continue to grow with SECN TV money.

2) Some schools cannot compete because of recruiting. Though UK may have a tough time ever recruiting evenly with schools like Florida and Alabama, schools with similar geographies (UL), worse geographies (Iowa, Wisconsin, Kansas State), harder academic restrictions (Northwestern, Vandy), and weather (Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois) have all managed to have some success in recent years. In this section, I'm talking strictly about proximity to good football players.

3) Some schools do not care about football. Indiana, Kansas, and Duke come to mind. If we've proven anything, it is that UK football fans care and are more loyal than we ought to be (based on results).

4) Some schools are unwilling to invest in football. UK has proven that it will spend money on coaches and on facilities (and on athletic directors, as ours is among the more highly-paid AD in the country). Admittedly, this section 4 took way too long for UK, but the willingness to invest is now there.

5) Other schools with less history, fewer advantages, and more natural roadblocks have managed to win in football since the turn of the century (not all of these are consistent winners but they've at least had a good mini-run over the last 15+ years).
-Candy: Abysmal history, academic restrictions, pitiful fanbase - won 9 games twice, beat UT multiple times
-South Carolina: Abysmal history (worse than ours heading into the 2000s), has to share a state with a school that has had far more football success, competing head-on with Georgia and UT for players in its own backyard - won 11 games 3 times, went to new year's day bowl games, won the SEC East (and probably should have won it another time or two)
- Miss State: The worst location in the SEC, battling Ole Miss, Bama, and Auburn in its own back yard, has to play the murderous SEC West every year, terrible brand and history - went to the orange bowl, has beaten UK 7 straight times, has managed to beat LSU and Ole Miss and Florida and others
- Illinois: Apathetic fanbase, mediocre history despite proximity to Chicago and being THE in-state school in a big state - mixed results, but did go to the Rose Bowl within the last 5-10 years
- Louisville: Small fanbase, terrible history prior to 2000, always second fiddle to UK in its own state (and some would argue, it's 50/50 in its own city) - I don't need to tell you what UL has been able to accomplish b/c we get 5 or 6 of them here all the time to remind us how amazing they are
- Kansas State: Terrible location, pretty bad school, the worst program in the country for years and years and years before Snyder - multiple big time bowls, won the Big 12, came close to playing for national titles several years were it not for upsets to A&M and Iowa State

-Wisconsin: Worst football school in the Big 10 prior to Alvarez. No great natural recruiting base. Cold weather. - Multiple big 10 titles, multiple rose bowls, multiple wins vs. SEC on new year's day (and multiple losses too, just saying)

Conclusion: Every situation above is the direct result of A) great coaching / talent development (and usually catering to a specific system) and B) an athletic director or administration with some vision. The only reason UK is not on the list above is because of our gaping void where A&B should be. If ever we decide to change that, we will win and probably win more than many here would have ever imagined.

Look at Marshall. They've been very successful by their leagues standards. They would beat U.K. most years and will more than likely beat Southern Miss and Louisville this year.

It can be done.
 

Deeeefense

Heisman
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Aug 22, 2001
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Even UK's best classes are near the bottom of the SEC. So...

So do you think any coach can land top 10 classes on a 5 win season? You work your way up the ladder, you don't go from the bottom rung to the top in one step. Had our performance met parity with the talent we brought in our recruiting classes would move right up as well. Having said that the classes Stoops has brought in are competitive with half the teams in the conference. Meaning what separates us from most of the bottom half are a tenth of a star or so. A TENTH OF A STAR - how much difference does that really make?

So that dog don't hunt.
 

cat_in_the_hat

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You have a point, the excuse makers will still cling to that one, but try recruiting to CUSA/BE/ACC compared to SEC and see what quality of players you can attract?
I actually think it is more possible to build a program outside of a power conference than inside it. The key, in my mind, to building a program is finding a way to win consistently over time and go to bowl games consistently over time. If you are a school in a lesser conference and are willing put power conference type money into your program you can win on a consistent basis. By doing that, you build a small tradition and change the perception you have among recruits. Sportscasters also love to talk up these non-power conference teams, so you also get some publicity and people following you. If, at some point, you can move into a power conference, then you have a much better shot at maintaining a competitive program than if you are trying to build it from scratch in a power conference. I think comparing U of L, and how they have built their program, to us is an apples and oranges comparison. I think we could build a winner in a non-power 5 conference because of the resources we can put into it that others won't in a lesser conference.
 
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mdlUK.1

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Dec 23, 2002
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I actually think it is more possible to build a program outside of a power conference than inside it. The key, in my mind, to building a program is finding a way to win consistently over time and go to bowl games consistently over time. If you are a school in a lesser conference and are willing put power conference type money into your program you can win on a consistent basis. By doing that, you build a small tradition and change the perception you have among recruits. Sportscasters also love to talk up these non-power conference teams, so you also get some publicity and people following you. If, at some point, you can move into a power conference, then you have a much better shot at maintaining a competitive program than if you are trying to build it from scratch in a power conference. I think comparing U of L, and how they have built their program, to us is an apples and oranges comparison. I think we could build a winner in a non-power 5 conference because of the resources we can put into it that others won't in a lesser conference.
I agree with the first part of your post but not with the apples to oranges thing. That is exactly how ul was able to do it.
 

Xception

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Apr 17, 2007
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It's possible to win here but the odds are low , I would error on the side that it won't be done . Doesn't mean it won't , but not likely .
 

cat_in_the_hat

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I agree with the first part of your post but not with the apples to oranges thing. That is exactly how ul was able to do it.
Maybe I wasn't clear in what I meant. I was saying that is how U of L built their program, but we can't do it that way because we are already in a power conference. So comparing them to us is apples and oranges because there is no way for us to duplicate how they did it. Were they in our predicament, they would have faced a similar uphill battle.
 
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mdlUK.1

Heisman
Dec 23, 2002
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Maybe I wasn't clear in what I meant. I was saying that is how U of L built their program, but we can't do it that way because we are already in a power conference. So comparing them to us is apples and oranges because there is no way for us to duplicate how they did it. Were they in our predicament, they would have faced a similar uphill battle.
Ok, gotcha. And I agree.